Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 5/29/2002 2:51:58 PM EDT
I used to shoot my AR15's dry, but a couple years ago the ex Army Ranger that runs our monthly CMP matches told me that he uses a Mercury Marine grease that contains Teflon. He said he puts it on the bolt, bolt carrier, etc.

I never got any of the Mercury grease, but about 8 months ago I got some Tetra grease and started using it. It works great on most moving parts (e.g., slide/frame on pistols), but it seems to make a big mess when used in the AR15 bolt area. It also seems to slow cycling, especially in the winter.

Does anybody out there use grease on their bolt and/or carrier. Where, how much, and what kind? Am I using too much? Should I use oil instead of grease, or nothing at all?

I am interested to hear from match shooters, as well plinkers and machine-gun shooters.

(Also posted at http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=120568)
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 4:06:49 PM EDT
I occassionaly use light RIG grease on my bolt carrier. When I remove the carrier, I can wipe fouling off much easier. I dab some on my finger, then run my finger over the carrier. Just a little bit, or you will create a nice layer of creosote in your action. I don't use anything but light machine oil on the rest of the rifle. I'm not a big fan of heavy lubrication in the rifle, though I always oil the exterior. Most of it goes up in smoke after the first shot anyway.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 4:34:28 PM EDT
I've been using Slick 50 Teflon grease on the bolt lugs and bearing surfaces on the bolt carrier. I apply a very thin coat with a small paintbrush. If I see any "globs" at all I've applied too much.

I use CLP everywhere else.

I haven't had any problems since I began using the grease. It doesn't make the rifle any harder to clean up.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 5:17:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 5:26:22 PM EDT by J_E_D]
I run Pro Gold grease in my full auto UZI and on my M16 bolt and carrier. I grease up the cam pin & slot, the bearing surfaces of the carrier and the bearing ring around the center of the bolt. I don't grease the lugs since it would just be squeezed right out and if it wasn't squeezed it would theoretically tighten up the headspace.

I've tried Tetra, Mercury Marine grease, White Lithium grease and several others. Nothing stays put in a machinegun like Pro-Gold. I've seen it used in just about every type of subgun and battle rifle and it stays put, even when the gun is smoking hot. It's too thick for pistols or really delicate actions but for military type stuff it's great. The only trade off is that when the temperature goes below freezing, open bolt guns won't fire unless you wipe most of it off and closed bolt guns need to be "warmed up" before they run right. I just make sure they stay warm in the car until it's time to commence fire.

edited to add:
When you're trying to protect and enjoy a $3000 to $25000 investment, CLP doesn't cut it. It's not such a big deal in a $450 M16 upper but in an $8000 M1A1 Thompson or $4500 MP-40, you'd better bet that things need to be greased. All you guys that think crap like WD-40 and guns go together need to pay attention. A kerosene-based water displacement spray has no place in keeping an investment running and not destroying itself. CLP is marginally better since it actually has some lubricant in it. Oils get burnt off and an action with sling that crap away. Good grease will stay put and actually lubricate. Do you think CLP will stay put? Dump 3 30 rounders full auto as fast as you can change mags and strip your upper after it cools. Like I said, on a non-collectable $450 upper that's not a big deal. How about on a C&R Colt 601? Or an AR-18? Or a Japanese Type 97? CLP turns to black fudge in my UZI after about four mags. Don't get me started on WD-40. Who spends thousands on a machinegun then won't get good lube for it?
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:36:45 PM EDT
i just use a standard ordinance grease on the bolt carriers metal to metal contact points & i use it sparingly..!
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:00:42 PM EDT
Thin coat of molybdenyum disulphide (Dow Corning Molykote G) on the face of the hammer, thin coats on the bearing surfaces of the bolt carrier..None on the bolt, nor near the chamber for obvious reasons.

JED- Ever do cyclic rate adjustment on a -28 Tommy by changing lubricants? Kind of messy, but interesting..

Meplat-
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:01:41 PM EDT
I use CLP and CLP only.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:05:51 PM EDT
Agreed. CLP and CLP only. If it is good enough to keep thousands of guns operating in the middle of combat under the most miserable conditions, it's good enough for my use.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:32:21 PM EDT
I remember during extended training in Egypt we ran out or CLP and were forced to use bug juice (put it in the bolt carrier assembly just to make the rifle function and it worked) What a bitch to clean up though.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:21:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Meplat:
Thin coat of molybdenyum disulphide (Dow Corning Molykote G) on the face of the hammer, thin coats on the bearing surfaces of the bolt carrier..None on the bolt, nor near the chamber for obvious reasons.

JED- Ever do cyclic rate adjustment on a -28 Tommy by changing lubricants? Kind of messy, but interesting..

Meplat-



I also use a Moly based grease, its an automotive grease with graphite in it as well.

I forget the name. It works great and I don't notice any wear inside of my upper or on my bolt carrier.

If it seems to cycle slow, its possible that it may be a bit much but I doubt it. Grease is heavier than oil and I would expect it to cycle slower, it shouldn't be a problem.

CLP is just o.k. but I prefer other things for BOTH cleaning and lubrication.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 5:56:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I use CLP and CLP only.



Ditto,
I am currently trying Tetra Oil and am pretty pleased so far.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:46:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2002 6:48:23 AM EDT by bigyeti]
I use a little, high end, bicycle bearing grease(green).. seems to work well...

edited cause I'm dyslexic this mornin'
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:59:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Meplat:
Thin coat of molybdenyum disulphide (Dow Corning Molykote G) on the face of the hammer, thin coats on the bearing surfaces of the bolt carrier..None on the bolt, nor near the chamber for obvious reasons.

JED- Ever do cyclic rate adjustment on a -28 Tommy by changing lubricants? Kind of messy, but interesting..

Meplat-



I've seen different grades of grease used for cyclic rate "tuning" in M11/9s and Thompsons.



Agreed. CLP and CLP only. If it is good enough to keep thousands of guns operating in the middle of combat under the most miserable conditions, it's good enough for my use.



You don't use CLP in the most miserable conditions. You generally leave it dry in those conditions and that's fine for an issue weapon.

Now, think about having a transferrable machinegun that is expensive to get parts for but that you intend to shoot. Do you really think CLP is enough to protect it? Let's take a Lewis Gun (The Mummy, the gun on the plane) for example. They're all steel but they have a lot of bearing surfaces that move at very high velocity. I have seen first hand how CLP will get hot and run out of the action or be thrown off of the reciprocating parts. High temperature grease on the other hand stays put and keeps lubricating.

I know a lot of you don't like to take ArmaLite's tech bulletins seriously and I think I agree with some of the reasons but they have a particularly scathing paper regarding CLP. I was one of you "All CLP all the time" guys until I bought machineguns and was set straight by my buddies and then read what ArmaLite had to say. CLP is an adequate cleaner and marginal lube but is not the best at either. It's absolutely the substance you want in the buttstock compartment of a military issue rifle. It is one step above WD-40 for a $5000+ range queen transferrable machinegun.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:45:37 AM EDT
Mrhemi-Probably too much grease.. This is my technique. Spray cleaned parts with CLP, and let drip..Do something else for 30 minutes or so, then wipe til only a thin film of CLP remains..
Now, only on bearing surfaces apply a thin smear of the grease.. Work it in with a patch..You want the Moly , not the carrier grease..

Apply a slightly thicker film to the face of the hammer.. That's it..


If I'm going to a shoot, it get's the same CLP treatment, but ONLY the hammer gets grease..The rest has dry film Moly dusted on it..It'll look like powder residue, but it is doing it's job..

Keep anything with Moly away from locking lugs, or the chamber..

Anyone own a SMLE? Try some of this Moly powder..After a month of use, you should notice a significant smoothing of an already fast action..

Meplat-
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 8:57:49 AM EDT
CLP{ & CLP only. Grease has a couple of problems:

1) is slows down the action (as someone noted) and causes reliability problems (I have seen this on the range). Grease was orginally tried on M16s in the eary 60s (I have an early manual that indicates the use of Grease). It was stopped when it was found to inhibit reliability under combat conditions.

2) Grease attacts and holds dirt. CLP helps 'flush out' dirt. The dirt the Grease holds is going to act like an abrasive paste...

BTW this complaint that CLP won't hold up if you quickly empty 5, 6, 7, dozens of magazines in a row is hogwash... If you are firing like that you are abusing the gun and your shooting style will wear out the barrel and action much quicker than deciding between Grease or CLP.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:32:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
CLP{ & CLP only. Grease has a couple of problems:

1) is slows down the action (as someone noted) and causes reliability problems (I have seen this on the range). Grease was orginally tried on M16s in the eary 60s (I have an early manual that indicates the use of Grease). It was stopped when it was found to inhibit reliability under combat conditions.

2) Grease attacts and holds dirt. CLP helps 'flush out' dirt. The dirt the Grease holds is going to act like an abrasive paste...

BTW this complaint that CLP won't hold up if you quickly empty 5, 6, 7, dozens of magazines in a row is hogwash... If you are firing like that you are abusing the gun and your shooting style will wear out the barrel and action much quicker than deciding between Grease or CLP.



that's my point exactly. It's not hogwash, it's called blasting. Your statement implies that my form of recreating irresponsible and destructive to my firearms. You'd be right if I only relied on CLP.

I think everyone is talking about apples and oranges here.

Using grease on a duty/issue gun smaller than a belt fed probably isn't a good idea. I never said it was. Reading back, I don't think anyone else did either.

Using grease on a VERY F^%$*@g expensive transferrable machinegun is not only a good idea, it's essential for longevity. The only exception to that rule may be the M16 due to parts availability and most of the wear being in the upper.

Maybe you don't want to use grease on your pre-ban or post-ban range queen. Fine. So you don't want to use grease because you shoot or hunt in dusty or very wet places. Guess what? Grease probably isn't a good idea there either. I don't think anyone said it is.

As far as CLP "flushing out" dirt, that statement doesn't make sense to me unless you're talking about adding more between magazines. Unless you and I are using drastically different products, CLP fills up with carbon and turns to fudge just about as fast as any other oil. That's just the CLP that actually stays put. The grease I use takes about 4 times as long to turn to fudge than CLP plus it stays put. Additionally, an action dripping CLP will attract just as much dirt, dust and crap as grease will.

Make no mistake in what I'm saying. I think CLP has it's place. I only use it for the 'P' since it doesn't 'C' or 'L' as well as other stuff.

I believe the original poster wanted to hear from machinegunners as well, so I guess my "hogwash" was asked for.

Range Queen? use a little grease.
Match Gun? use a little grease.
Duty/Issue Gun? Follow the TM.
Hunting/Ranch Gun? Follow the TM.
WAY EXPENSIVE Machinegun? use a little grease.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:49:05 AM EDT
Does any body use Rem-oil on there guns
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:55:52 AM EDT
I alternate between CLP and a product called "lubriplate" - its a light oily white "grease." Out of three cleanings, i'll prolly do two post-cleaning lubes with CLP, and then the third with lubriplate. Trying to get the best of all worlds.

My opinion...

I suspect CLP has the advantage over grease, as grease traps dirt in your action. CLP helps to break down any additional carbon introduced to your action during firing AS it lubricates.

What could be better than that??? Not grease. (Not intended to address what works for MG's)



Link Posted: 5/30/2002 10:11:48 AM EDT
I have tried Tetra grease in my FAL and AR10s, but it seems to create too much drag so I went back to CLP. I still use grease on my M1A and that works well.

I always use CLP on the AR15s.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 10:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2002 10:25:27 AM EDT by bmg]
Rem-oil has teflon and I use it in my bolt guns. I tried it in my ARs but felt a fast-moving action needed something to absorb shock.

Like J_E_D, my interests lay more in reducing wear and tear than maintaining 100% battle-field reliability. I want my guns to be reliable, but if I have an occasional jam I consider that a justified trade-off if I can reduce wear and parts breakage (especially in machine guns).

I think everybody's comments were good, and I agree that grease in a combat gun could invite malfunctions, especially when gobbed on like I have been doing. When I use grease, I will now use it sparingly and not on the locking lugs of the bolt.

I don't believe we have heard from any match shooters. How do you take care of your custom service and match rifles? Grease or oil?

-------------
After I posted this, I checked my post of the same question on the Competition Shooting forum and found that almost 100% uses grease on their bolt and/or carrier. They also reported no malfunctions (alibis).

Check it out: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=120568
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 10:18:02 AM EDT
I use Valvoline synthetic racing grease on the bolt and carrier and slide/frames of my semi auto pistols. You get a big tube at the auto parts store for almost nothing and it lasts forever.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 10:54:20 AM EDT
CLP was developed due to the M-16. In my opinion, it is still the best thing developed for firearms.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 11:06:11 AM EDT
>>You don't use CLP in the most miserable conditions. You generally leave it dry in those conditions and that's fine for an issue weapon.<<
I guess that depends on what you consider the most miserable conditions. I personally have found hot humid jungle far more miserable than dry dusty desert or arctic cold.
>>Now, think about having a transferrable machinegun that is expensive to get parts for but that you intend to shoot. Do you really think CLP is enough to protect it?<<
Yes.
>>Let's take a Lewis Gun<<
IIRC, the post was about lubricating an AR15. Quite different from the Lewis.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 12:00:13 PM EDT
I posted this once before in the Maint. & Cleaning forum. Give this stuff a go: TW25B by a company called Mil-Comm. Website is:www.milcomm.com . This stuff REALLY works, if applied properly. When they indicate on the tube to apply lightly, i.e. so that only a sheen appears, not the white of the grease itself, it really kicks ass. BTW, Tetra is water soluble. I use TW25B in my AR and ALL my handguns and I have ZERO problems, no matter how fast I shoot, and I've stored my AR uncleaned for two weeks and pulled it out and shot the hell out of it on a windy, dusty day in the desert with, again, NO problems. A buddy of mine kept trying to use Rem-Oil on his Hi-Power and was getting stovepipes every 6-7 rounds. I had given him some TW25B. Finally one day at the range I broke his gun down, wiped out the oil, and lubed it up with TW25B. Made a believer out of him. He's used it ever since, and has had ZERO problems. Go to their website, check their specs, try some before you arbitrarily dismiss grease on/in semi auto/autos. And no, I don't work for them, just have no reservations about recommending something that works and I believe in.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 1:24:12 PM EDT
I use Rem Oil on my Ar15 and my handguns and other rifles. I use it primarily to remove/prevent rust. The reason that I don't use CLP is because I don't like the smell. CLP is a jack of all trades and master of none. It is good for a military environment since it is easy to logistically get to locations and only requires them to purchase one item that works ok for its intended purpose. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Wilson's Lube. It is the best thing, in my opinion, for all weapons. It lasts for months(literally) and is extremely lubricating. It also works in all but the coldest environments(add a little Rem Oil in cold weather to slightly thin it out). I use Wilson's for the inside of my AR and, if I plan to shoot a lot and then clean it, I put a little Rem Oil inside to make it easier to clean. If I'm just going to shoot it a little bit or if I'm going to carry it a lot and shoot it a little, then I use just Wilson's. I still wipe down the outside of all my weapons with Rem Oil(including my Glocks).
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 3:55:29 PM EDT
Hey J_E_D, you've convinced me that you really know your stuff. Ok, so what kinda grease is Pro Gold?? I've never heard of it. Is it an auto grease or what? What kinda stores would you find it in; or can you cite a web site where I can get it at. Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:07:52 PM EDT
I haven't tried any grease. Just out of curiosity, what about the "Moly-Slide" lube paste Bushmaster sells? Is it worth anything?
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:09:19 PM EDT
I haven't tried any grease. Just out of curiosity, what about the "Moly-Slide" lube paste Bushmaster sells? Is it worth anything?
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:35:52 PM EDT
What of LSA?
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:54:45 PM EDT
The Moly Slide stuff from Bushmaster is supposed to only be used for when you install and torque down barrels
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:02:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sitting Bull:
Hey J_E_D, you've convinced me that you really know your stuff. Ok, so what kinda grease is Pro Gold?? I've never heard of it. Is it an auto grease or what? What kinda stores would you find it in; or can you cite a web site where I can get it at. Thanks.



I bought mine at a store in Stuart's Draft VA.

It was recommended to me by one of my fellow machinegun freaks. He's owned more than 50 different transferrable machineguns.

www.proshotproducts.com/page13.html

I've tried quite a few different greases and must say that they're not all created equal. I'd just like to say that if you not a grease-o-phobe, Pro-Gold is THE SHIT.
I'm at 29,000 rounds through Ye Olde UZI with no measureable wear on the bolt, which is the registered part. My buddy's Vector UZI has measurable grooving from the top cover after 12,000 rounds. He's a CLP believer. Different bolt material you say? Maybe.

I think I've been pretty clear on my opinion of where and when it's appropriate.

I shoot DCM service rifle matches and I use grease as I described before whether I'm burning up a case of Wolf .223 in my M16 or I'm shooting a match.

As far as that whole "grease traps grit" argument goes, maybe it does when you have dust and crap blowing everywhere. I'll stipulate that, and I do shoot greased up guns in those condidions occasionally. If your ammo is spewing grit into your action, maybe you need to change ammo. Brass shavings are soft. Primer sealant is soft. Copper shavings are soft and a sign of something being fooked. That leaves powder deposits. Maybe I need to be educated but I don't think powder fouling is gritty.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:11:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
I use Rem Oil on my Ar15 and my handguns and other rifles. I use it primarily to remove/prevent rust. The reason that I don't use CLP is because I don't like the smell. CLP is a jack of all trades and master of none. It is good for a military environment since it is easy to logistically get to locations and only requires them to purchase one item that works ok for its intended purpose. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Wilson's Lube. It is the best thing, in my opinion, for all weapons. It lasts for months(literally) and is extremely lubricating. It also works in all but the coldest environments(add a little Rem Oil in cold weather to slightly thin it out). I use Wilson's for the inside of my AR and, if I plan to shoot a lot and then clean it, I put a little Rem Oil inside to make it easier to clean. If I'm just going to shoot it a little bit or if I'm going to carry it a lot and shoot it a little, then I use just Wilson's. I still wipe down the outside of all my weapons with Rem Oil(including my Glocks).



I've been using RemOil for cleaning and storage when I run out of CLP. I think it cuts carbon a little better. It makes the action of my Nambu and my 1911 Commander feel smoother. It makes the Series 80 trigger in my Commander tolerable. I like it better for cleaning since it atomizes into a spray better and doesn't come out as foam. Call it my disability with spray cans of CLP, but I like the way RemOil sprays better since it's thinner. I can make a can last twice as long as CLP. I'd give up CLP all together except for my superstitious belief that Parkerizing (magnesium phosphate to you Bushmaster cult members) absorbs and holds the 'P' in CLP like magic. I had an M16A2 out in the field during the tail end of monsoon season while I was in 2ID in Korea and it didn't rust at all. On the other hand, I wish I'd bothered to put some CLP on my bayonet. I did an assload of pushups over that being so rusty.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:13:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Berthold:
What of LSA?



Lube only. No cleaner. No preservative.

Great for douching down the action rails on belt fed machineguns.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:32:43 PM EDT
Nobody seems to want to mention Mr. Derrick Martin's opinion on grease. He says go for it and grease is grease. I have used shooters choice for a good time now and had great luck. Normally I put a little tri-flow or rem oil on the carrier first, then cover in grease. Derrick has said he does not even bother to clean it off or clean out the upper, just more grease. Read his book!!
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:39:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
...The reason that I don't use CLP is because I don't like the smell....



Well, to each his own. To me, CLP has an eerie, time-warping smell to it. I like it as well as Hoppe's.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 8:33:46 AM EDT
LSA here or Break-Free, LSA in Uzi, works like a charm.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 3:57:46 PM EDT
Hey J_E_D, thanks for the link and the info.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 10:14:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sitting Bull:
Hey J_E_D, thanks for the link and the info.



No problem.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 12:16:00 AM EDT
I've been using a product that my nephew sent me a sample of from his ship , U.S.S. Shreveport. Says the seals on board used this stuff when in the Middle East. Its a molydisulphide type product made by Sentry Solutions .Its available at their website.Totaly dry film technology except for their grease which is thicker than Moly-slide (get that at Bruno's Shooting supply - Hi power shooters there). 7000 rounds and no visible wear anywhere. I shoot lots of 45 lead bullets. After 500 rounds or so, you get some lead build-up in the barrel. To clean it out ,take a dry patch on a 45jag and push all the lead out the end with 3 passes. Truly some remarkable stuff. My 45 Sig loves the stuff. 2500 rounds in an Ar and you're wasting your time cleaning the barrel-- there's nothing in it. tried to soak in Shooters Choice for 20 min & push a dry patch- no green streaks. Check it out, it made a believer out of me. I was a CLP guy.
Top Top