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Posted: 5/28/2002 8:02:02 AM EDT
I was recently in a local sporting goods store and asked the counter person to see a new Colt AR 15 post ban rifle. We got to talking and he said he was in the Marines and that they regularly shoot their M-16A2 at 1000 yds. with iron sights!! Well I personally own pre ban AR15 a pre FAL and a Steyr/McMillan tac. hb in .308 and I could never hit a target at 1000 yds. with just the irons.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 8:12:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 8:15:01 AM EDT
I was shooting next to a guy in a Palma match that was shooting a Colt 1 in 7 twist with a float tube. At 800 he shot a 149/150, 900 he did OK (don't remember the score), and at 1000 he fell of the bus a little. Very windy day though, nobody did well at 1000. He was shooting 80 grain Berger VLD's and N540. I surely would not go stand in front of an AR shooting match bullets at 1000!
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 10:30:38 AM EDT
I know that they used to train at 500 yards, but not a 1000. And if he could hit anything at 1000 yards with a mil M16 then he's the ledgen of the corps. I think he was just pulling your chain a little.
DA
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 1:23:16 PM EDT
Both the USAMU & Marine Rifle Team use M16s in LR/1000yd. service rifle matches. Sure they're match prepared rifles, not rack grade. One of the differences between the AMU's across the course rifles and their 1000yd. ones is that they use 1~7.7 twist Kriegers for XC, and 1~7 for 1000yds. For all I know, they may be experimenting with 1~6.5 twist Kriegers or PacNors with JLK 90gr. VLDs for 1000 this season. The main differences between a rack grade & match M16 are the quality of the barrel & chambering job, a floating handguard, better sights, and a 2-stage trigger.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 2:39:57 PM EDT
1000 yards? 1000feet? Hmmmm... I could hit a large lake at 1000 yards..
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 5:51:01 PM EDT
Last Oct. at our 1,000 practice I was shooting 168 gr .308. My shots did not make the target. What really made me feel bad was the guy at the end of the line with an AR15 he used in Service Rifle matches putting his shots on paper.
This past Saturday an older gentleman (I'm 60) was shooting a bolt .223 and getting on paper. Looked like a 26" barrel.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 6:24:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fltri98:
Last Oct. at our 1,000 practice I was shooting 168 gr .308. My shots did not make the target. What really made me feel bad was the guy at the end of the line with an AR15 he used in Service Rifle matches putting his shots on paper.
This past Saturday an older gentleman (I'm 60) was shooting a bolt .223 and getting on paper. Looked like a 26" barrel.



Don't feel bad about your .308. 168 gr. will go subsonic around 900 yards. Keyhole if it makes it at all. Our long range facility specifically will NOT allow GM308M1 on the 1000 yard range.

On the other hand 175 gr. GM308M2 is stable at 1000 yards.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 9:00:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By fltri98:
Last Oct. at our 1,000 practice I was shooting 168 gr .308. My shots did not make the target. What really made me feel bad was the guy at the end of the line with an AR15 he used in Service Rifle matches putting his shots on paper.
This past Saturday an older gentleman (I'm 60) was shooting a bolt .223 and getting on paper. Looked like a 26" barrel.



Don't feel bad about your .308. 168 gr. will go subsonic around 900 yards. Keyhole if it makes it at all. Our long range facility specifically will NOT allow GM308M1 on the 1000 yard range.

On the other hand 175 gr. GM308M2 is stable at 1000 yards.



168s in a gas gun go subsonic, but this isn't necessarly true in a bolt gun . . .

Link Posted: 5/28/2002 9:03:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By flatlander:
Both the USAMU & Marine Rifle Team use M16s in LR/1000yd. service rifle matches. Sure they're match prepared rifles, not rack grade. One of the differences between the AMU's across the course rifles and their 1000yd. ones is that they use 1~7.7 twist Kriegers for XC, and 1~7 for 1000yds. For all I know, they may be experimenting with 1~6.5 twist Kriegers or PacNors with JLK 90gr. VLDs for 1000 this season. The main differences between a rack grade & match M16 are the quality of the barrel & chambering job, a floating handguard, better sights, and a 2-stage trigger.



If I recall correctly, AMU had a good season at 1,000 using 80 grain Sierras. Also, the M-14s used at 1,000 have more mods than the ARs . . .
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 9:46:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By fltri98:
Last Oct. at our 1,000 practice I was shooting 168 gr .308. My shots did not make the target. What really made me feel bad was the guy at the end of the line with an AR15 he used in Service Rifle matches putting his shots on paper.
This past Saturday an older gentleman (I'm 60) was shooting a bolt .223 and getting on paper. Looked like a 26" barrel.



Don't feel bad about your .308. 168 gr. will go subsonic around 900 yards. Keyhole if it makes it at all. Our long range facility specifically will NOT allow GM308M1 on the 1000 yard range.

On the other hand 175 gr. GM308M2 is stable at 1000 yards.



168s in a gas gun go subsonic, but this isn't necessarly true in a bolt gun . . .




I'm talking about 168's as loaded by Federal. Custom loads CAN make 1000 though it will be a hot load. 168's are designed to excel at 600 yards. TacPro will not allow GM308M1 from any rifle gas or bolt at 1000 yards. As fired from a bolt rifle, Federal 168's keyhole with great regularity.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 10:14:09 PM EDT
The USMC and USAMU do use the M16 in 1000 yard matches. They shoot service rifle class, not match rifle class. Basically the same rifle they use for XC High Power matches with different ammo loads. And if you don't think an AR15 service rifle prepped carefully won't be competitive at 1000 yards just check with X-man in the competition forum. He's shooting a 6.5 twist 20" barrel with 90 gr bullets and beating most of the competition.

From my personal experience it can be done. With iron sights it is definitely not easy. But I manage to keep them all in the black.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 10:23:40 PM EDT
Pthfndr...I've got a long range AR15 varmint rifle used to play at 1000 yards. It's going with me to the BRC even though there's no place to let it show off. Maybe a little 300 yard coke-can-looking-like-a-prairie-dog match tho'. Berger VLD 80's in front of 27.5 gr. of N550 will stroll on out to 1000. Irons are out. My old eyes need a big chunk of glass.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 10:25:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
There was a video clip posted here recently about the Marines' high power rifle shooting team and I think they mentioned a 1000 yard shoot.



here ya go...
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=117859
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:24:29 AM EDT
My biggest problem is that I don't think I could SEE a target at 1000 yards anymore without optics.

I was in the Marines for awhile, I NEVER shot 1000 yards [on purpose].
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 3:24:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:
Pthfndr...I've got a long range AR15 varmint rifle used to play at 1000 yards. It's going with me to the BRC even though there's no place to let it show off. Maybe a little 300 yard coke-can-looking-like-a-prairie-dog match tho'. Berger VLD 80's in front of 27.5 gr. of N550 will stroll on out to 1000. Irons are out. My old eyes need a big chunk of glass.



What kind of velocity are you getting with this combo?

Moly or not?
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:14:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maynard:

Originally Posted By Arock:
Pthfndr...I've got a long range AR15 varmint rifle used to play at 1000 yards. It's going with me to the BRC even though there's no place to let it show off. Maybe a little 300 yard coke-can-looking-like-a-prairie-dog match tho'. Berger VLD 80's in front of 27.5 gr. of N550 will stroll on out to 1000. Irons are out. My old eyes need a big chunk of glass.



What kind of velocity are you getting with this combo?

Moly or not?



The combination was running 2830 f/s three weeks ago. 5-shot extreme spread was 7 f/s and standard deviation was 2 f/s.

Moly Bergers and I run a patch of Moly-Slide down the bore too. I apply moly and wax myself but these particular Bergers were factory moly'ed.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:12:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigyeti:
1000 yards? 1000feet? Hmmmm... I could hit a large lake at 1000 yards..



Yep - LARGE lake.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:26:09 AM EDT
How many clicks of elevation from zero(with standard battle sights/20"/1/7/AR-15) does it take to get on paper @1000yds w/55grn pills?
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:02:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:
I'm talking about 168's as loaded by Federal. Custom loads CAN make 1000 though it will be a hot load. 168's are designed to excel at 600 yards. TacPro will not allow GM308M1 from any rifle gas or bolt at 1000 yards. As fired from a bolt rifle, Federal 168's keyhole with great regularity.



It was my understanding that 168s were designed for 300 meters . . .
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:06:17 AM EDT
I was in the Corps for six years & of course qualified every year at the range. Methinks you were told a sea story by the counterman. Standard qualifying for Marines can include the 500 yard line. Matches move to the 600 yard line. I have NEVER seen a 1000 yard line at any USMC range: Parris Island, Camp Lejuene, Cherry Point & Okinawa.

I have not seen the ranges at Camp Pendleton & 29 Palms.

FWIW, unless one is indeed on a shooting team, one shoots with a standard M-16 & issue ball ammo. Tell your counterman I said he was full of BS. >gg<
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 1:00:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By bigyeti:
1000 yards? 1000feet? Hmmmm... I could hit a large lake at 1000 yards..



Yep - LARGE lake.



I thought the same thing until I went to a Highpower XC match at Camp Perry. Hell I was skeptical that anyone could consistently hit a target at 600 yards.

Then I saw how large the targets are.

It is still very impressive what some shooters can do but the targets are quite large.

That said, hitting the target and hitting the X ring are two different matters altogether.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 1:41:12 PM EDT
The big clue that this is probably BS is that long distance AR loads don't fit in the magazine. I don't believe that the Marines, outside of the shooting teams, would shoot loads that could not be mag-feed.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 6:09:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY:
How many clicks of elevation from zero(with standard battle sights/20"/1/7/AR-15) does it take to get on paper @1000yds w/55grn pills?



First, a 55gr won't hack it. At that range even the slightest breeze would blow it off the target. As to the come up, without checking my data book I think it was on the order of 62 MOA. Rear sight was topped out and the front sight was turned down 2 full turns from my 200 yard zero. This was on my HP AR that I shoot in the service rifle class. Regardless, it's a lot. And if it's windy the bullet trace looks like a curve ball.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 6:14:22 PM EDT
Thanks for the info Pthfndr.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 6:53:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY:
How many clicks of elevation from zero(with standard battle sights/20"/1/7/AR-15) does it take to get on paper @1000yds w/55grn pills?



As described, Pejsa says you'll need 91 MOA elevation over a 100 yard zero. Retained velocity will be around 550 f/s at 1000 yds. That's Slooowww. But you'll still be supersonic (barely) at 500 yards if that's any consolation.
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