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Posted: 5/17/2002 8:48:01 AM EDT
Not too long ago, I came across a post where the infamous Troy stated that using a 6 o'clock zero for a combat rifle was not the way to go. He felt that this was more suited for the range and the like. Naturally, since "Troy" said this, I became curious, because my rifle was zeroed using the six o'clock hold. What should I use instead?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:51:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 8:52:02 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Is this the post your looking for?
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=116620

Mike
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:53:47 AM EDT
THe M16A2 Service Rifle is a point of aim, point of impact weapon. You should have the clear tip of the front sight post in the center of the target.

For more detailed instructions, go to your nearest Marine Corps Recruiter and sign up for the 2 week rifle course.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:57:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:08:24 AM EDT
Well, I was finally able to download the Operator's manual. Now I see where Troy was coming from.

EricE--

Are there any targets that I can use in conjunction with the Santose method (i.e. like the target grid used in the Operator's manual)? Or can I just use the 100 yd grid that's available at my range? I know it won't match up, but at least I'll SOME sort of reference.
One more, Eric. Since I used the Santose method, with a six o'clock hold, I take it all I have to to to make it a "point of impact" zero is to adjust the front sight elevation, correct?




Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:13:41 AM EDT
Hydguy--

Two week Marince Corps rifle course? LOL.

Link Posted: 5/17/2002 11:34:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 11:35:47 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Well, I was finally able to download the Operator's manual. Now I see where Troy was coming from.

EricE--

Are there any targets that I can use in conjunction with the Santose method (i.e. like the target grid used in the Operator's manual



Of course there is. Have you visited the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site yet? If you are a member you can download 50 yard zeroing targets (These are scaled military zeroing targets) from our Documents section. The targets are available for Carbines and Rifles (different grid size for each since the amount of adjustment is different due to the change in sight radius).

If you not a member (why not? - its free and only takes a minute!) then you go to our AR-15 Manuals section and follow the links to the Manual Depot (we also have the targets stored there)
communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite

Troy is correct - 6 O'clock holds are for DCM target shooting, it allows for a more precise sight picture from the high contrast, consistant range paper targets.

The Center-of-Mass hold (where the top of the front sight appears to cut the target in two) is better for 'battlesight' shooting where target size and range varies.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:22:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Hydguy--

Two week Marine Corps rifle course? LOL.




Yup. VERY informative. Instructors make sure you undersand the information that you are given.
I took the course in '91, and still remember what they taught me.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:03:14 PM EDT
Ok, forgive me here for my obvious stupidity.

Was the front site picture that Troy posted on that thread the six o'clock site picture, or NOT the six o'clck site picture.

I'm used to shooting my AR's with the site picture Troy posted, and it's seems fairly natural for me. And did from the get go.

If it's not the six o'clcck site picture, can somebody post what one looks like?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:18:47 PM EDT
ShamusMcOI - not a stupid question at all. the pic is of a "standard" sight pic - NOT a 6o'clock sight pic. Problem with a 6 o'clock hold (for me) is that at varying distances, you're sitting there trying to imagine how "low" you should hold - "now lesse - at the range, my target was about this big, but that was at 100 yds, and this looks to be about 250-300yds - of course the elevation wheel is in meters - maybe I should hold right here.....bang".

The Santose zero is great - small aperture at 300-2 or 300-4 for flatops -or- large aperture at 300 give you the same poi - plenty flat enough for combat work out to about 225m. If you really have a good idea of therange and it's around 300m - use small aperture and crank the wheel to 300m. For longer distances, it's small aperture all the way and your elevation wheel should be on.

My apologies if this is not clearly stated.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:33:55 PM EDT
Thanks, that's what I thought.

Again, that site picture just seems so natural. I can't imagine shooting any other way. But I don't shoot high power competition either.

As far as the Santose method, that's the only way I site my rifles anymore. So easy, and so adaptable since you can still use your come ups on the A2 sites. I've even got my ACOG zeroed using a modified Santose method.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:23:40 PM EDT
Forest--Thanks for the information. As soon as I get a chance (i.e. finish my damn 15 page final paper!), I'll check out that site and join.

Hydguy--I thought you were kidding. I thought it was, like, an enlistment joke, or something. So, no shiznit, if I go to the Marine Corps recuirter they'll know what the hell I'm talking about? That sounds like something to do during the summer!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:28:12 PM EDT
Unless your shooting at Bullseye targets set it up to shoot center of mass.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:35:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:57:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Hydguy--I thought you were kidding. I thought it was, like, an enlistment joke, or something. So, no shiznit, if I go to the Marine Corps recuirter they'll know what the hell I'm talking about? That sounds like something to do during the summer!



It is a joke (sort of). The Rifle Range portion of boot camp is 2 weeks long, but before that is First Phase, and then you have Third Phase!!
But I seriously remember what the PMI's and my Drill Instructors taught me there. Don't remember much else, but hey, this isn't the Marine Corps History Forum.
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