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Posted: 5/8/2002 10:03:34 PM EDT
Okay,....Today I bought a Remington 870 Express Magnum, with an 18" barrel.
It is actually the first shotgun in my collection, and I am not so well versed in the finer arts of barrel chokes and such.
I wonder if one of you who is in the know might help me out here?
I want to get a nice tight group with 00 buckshot, AND be able to fire slugs accurately.
can slugs be fired through a tight choked barrel?

I intend to send this weapon off to Scattergun Technologies for the "Border Patrol" custom package (ghost ring rear/blade front sites, Armor Tuff coating, ect, ect)
any advise on this topic would be greatly appreciated.....thanks in advance
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:08:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:08:43 PM EDT by TheFNG]
Yes slugs can be shot through a choked barrel. But the question is how much damage will it cause?
A shotgun is a specific weapon for a specific job. If your using Ghost ring sights forget slugs. What kind of use are you trying to set this up for? Home defense? Trunk gun? Make sure to get a mag extension tube.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:17:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:18:16 PM EDT by kicker9898]
Why forget Ghost Rings for slugs? Just curious....I've put slugs on poppers at 100 with GR sights. Vang Comp does good work, go to their website and look at before and after patterns with buckshot. I'm sending mine this fall after match season, I too picked up an 870 express mag...all the goodies too, for 275. But, the Vang stuff is a little expensive. However you might do Vang instead of Wilson, but just personal pref. Enjoy the gun.

Edited to say, if it's an OEM 18" it's probably not choked tight, imagine its cylinder bore like mine, meaning almost no choke at all.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:21:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFNG:
If your using Ghost ring sights forget slugs.



The site setup Im refering to is designed to be used with slugs, and tight patterned shot.

It is an adjustable ghost rear (like an AR 15) with a blade front site.
You can see the "Border Patrol" package here
www.wilsoncombat.com
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:21:57 PM EDT
One of the great things about your 870 is Barrel interchangeability. Your best bet is to set one Barrel up for buckshot (I like a modified choke myself) and another for Slugs. They even make rifled barrels for slug use.

My 870 has a 20 inch (unrifled) slug barrel on it with a choate 8 shot magazine tube extension. It's stocked with a Choate pistol grip stock and has a Comp M 10moa Aimpoint secured to the receiver with a B square mount.

It's Fast and deadly with 00 out to about 35 yards and will put Winchester 10z slugs into 5moa at 100 yards.

Best of luck.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:33:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:35:26 PM EDT by madmedic]

Originally Posted By SGB:
One of the great things about your 870 is Barrel interchangeability. Your best bet is to set one Barrel up for buckshot (I like a modified choke myself) and another for Slugs. They even make rifled barrels for slug use.



Thanks SGB, I had considered that option,...but what Im wanting to end up with is a "tactical" shotgun that can....say, be loaded with 00, and hold slugs in the spare shell carrier on the side,...to be loaded as needed.

what Im wondering is how I should choke this barrel for this purpose....(I probably should have been clearer in my initial post)

kicker what is Vang's web address?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:34:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:51:24 PM EDT by 321Bang]

Originally Posted By TheFNG:
Yes slugs can be shot through a choked barrel. But the question is how much damage will it cause?
A shotgun is a specific weapon for a specific job. If your using Ghost ring sights forget slugs. What kind of use are you trying to set this up for? Home defense? Trunk gun? Make sure to get a mag extension tube.

UMMMMMM?? Doesn't the humble Ar-15 use essentially ghost rings? I think you have your wires crossed with the Ghost ring advice. Slugs+Ghost Rings= On target! Flawed advice 100% Edited to say, go with ghost rings and you won't regret it!
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:39:20 PM EDT
I also forgot to add something to my question (althought I have a pretty good idea of the answer)

I am assuming that shot should not be fired through a rifled slug barrel,....correct?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:01:39 PM EDT
The tighter the choke, the longer your effective range, but the more carefully you must aim at intermediate distance. The question is, what range do you expect to shoot from ?

I use my 1187 mainly for action competition, and find a 21" barrel with full choke knocks plates and poppers down convincingly with 00 buck out to 30yards +.

IMHO, for the most flexibility you should choose the tightest choke available. And don't worry about damage from slugs... modern metallurgy can handle lead rifled slugs being pushed thru even a full-choke barrel (actually, they can often be more accurate than cylinder choke).
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:09:42 AM EDT
Check the box of the slugs you intent to use for any directions on chokes. I’m looking at a box of Remington saboted “CopperSolid” slugs that says the rounds cannot be used in any choked barrel (including improved cylinder).

However, I know regular lead slugs can be used in at least some choked barrels. (I’m thinking they can be used in anything other than a full choked barrel – but I could be wrong.)

Remington’s 00 Buck Tactical shotgun round shoots incredibly small groups. Unfortunately, it’s a reduced recoil load with only 8 pellets in it.

I had a bunch of shotguns modified by the original Scattergun Technologies when I was working for the government. My experiences:

I had a number of our barrels retrofitted with Scattergun's permanently installed chokes (epoxied in, I think). These tended to shoot out.

I added the one shot magazine extension to our shotguns. These had a handguard/sling loop plate held onto the extension by a circular toothed spring. The spring didn’t hold very well.

Scattergun later replaced the spring with a pressed-on ring. It didn’t hold very well either. (However, keep in mind that these were extensively shot weapons.)

The front sight is epoxied on and every once and a while the sight would come loose. I didn’t consider this a flaw, but rather normal wear and tear.

The rear sight is a simple, rugged, and well-designed sight. However, it is difficult to make fine adjustments on it.

Also:

Most of our shotguns had 14 inch barrels made by simply sawing 4 inches off a 18 inch barrel. Despite this, the heavy trigger, and the less than precise ghost ring sight, a decent shot could pretty easily hit a paper plate at 50 yards from a barricade position with a standard lead slug.

I don’t know if it’s part of the package, but I’m real fond of the jumbo head safety.

While you can swap out barrels fairly easily, you’re certainly not going to be doing that in a gunfight.

My personal opinion is that you need a barrel that will handle both buckshot and slug. Being able to do a quick round exchange is, after all, a major advantage of a shotgun over a rifle.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 1:57:07 AM EDT
Here's another vote for the Vang Comp "System," Wilson just ads parts and a coating, Vang does gunsmithing. I've gotten lots of complements on my Vang job. Should you want a coating check out ARS (Arizona Response Systems), they do an excellent job with their Metacol III coating.
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/

http://www.vangcomp.com/index.htm
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 3:17:03 AM EDT
I use a patternmaster choke tube on my duty gun. It is a great choke. Slugs fire out of it great too. I can keep all 9 pellets on the silhouette at 40 yards. As for shooting buckshot out of a rifled barrel, it doesn’t work! You will get doughnut shaped patterns. You will be lucky to hit a man-sized silhouette at 25 yards!
www.patternmaster.com
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:42:35 AM EDT
Okay, here's some IMHO from someone who has been doing one heck of a lot of shotgunning lately(probably to the detriment of my pistolero skills). With buckshot, you need to pattern your loads; just enough choke and you will be rewarded with nice tight patterns, too much choke and your pellets will deform and your pattern will blow up. A good rule of thumb is nothing tighter than improved modified/light full for buckshot, but again you need to pattern your load. As far as slugs go, use a slug barrel(which will provide the best accuracy), or stick with a cylinder bore. I believe some manufacturer makes rifled choke tubes that can be used with slugs; you might try looking at those.

Good luck with the shotty!

P.S. - SGT/Wilson's makes a great product(you might check with Waverunner, I think he just bought one of their guns), but Vang's barrels are the stuff of legend. I believe that Vang Comp just entered into a partnership with Barstow to produce complete aftermarket stainless steel barrels for the 870. You might want to check those out.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:47:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:
Remington’s 00 Buck Tactical shotgun round shoots incredibly small groups. Unfortunately, it’s a reduced recoil load with only 8 pellets in it.



I sure wouldn't want to get whacked by eight 33 caliber lead balls moving at, say 1200 fps...
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 9:14:18 AM EDT
I have a few minor suggestions. First let me preface this by saying that I have 2 scattergun tech shotguns one 1100 one 870 that have both been to Vang comp to have the barrels done. This is a great feature if you have the money to sink into it. But may not be necessary in the beginning of your shotgunning hobby (I have 7 tactical shotguns and many non tactical). I also think highly of scattergun tech which was its own company and did true gunsmithing before wilson bought it. Not that I am bashing wilson. The most important key to successful use of a shotgun is training and that can probably be said about any firearm. Shotguns are special though in the unique way they load and that they pattern multiple projectiles and that they are pointed not aimed. There are some chokes that slugs cannot be fired through. You have an 18"barrel so it does not have removable chokes so this is probably something you don't have to worry about with this shotgun. And all the 18" barrels that I know of are primarily designed for buckshot and or slugs depending on if they are rifled or not. A vang barrel or modification is probably the only thing and the best thing that can be done in regards to tighter patterns of a shotgun. I think removable chokes or not necessary on a home defense shotgun.

The main point I wanted to make was that the 870 is like a Mattel toy though. You probably don't need scattergun to do your mods especially for the border patrol model. From the website here are the stats of the border patrol model.


Adjustable TRAK-LOCK® Ghost Ring rear sight, ramp type front sight with tritium self luminous insert

(this is useful and probably the single most expensive thing you are paying for and for me very useful but with your rifle sights that you probably already have they aren't necessary at home defense ranges)

Extended Magazine Tube, total capacity: 7
rounds (6 rounds on Compact model)
(45$ from scattergun)

Synthetic Butt Stock and Fore Grip
(Available from many sources from the 30$ models to the Houge rubber coated to short stocks to the 60$ speedfeeds that hold extra rounds to the knoxx compstock that really reduces felt recoil)


High Visibility, Non-Binding Follower
Extra Power Heavy Duty Stainless Magazine Tube Spring
(both included with the mag extension)

Jumbo Head Safety
(very handy especially to get rid of that stupid lock)

Multi-Purpose Tactical Sling
(I don't think it is a good idea on a home defense gun but many are available, this is a great one for swat type operations or correctional use and retains the shotgun when transitioning to handgun, unlikely needed in home defense)

Butt Stock Swivel and Rigid Magazine Tube Sling Mount
(butstock swivel included with most aftermarket stocks (rigid tube mount included with mag extension)

Mil-Spec Black Manganese Phosphate Finish (Parkerized)
(the gun comes with good parkerization)

So the point I am trying to make is
Purchase a tube extension, a stock you really like and a sling if you insist. Some people (myself included) also like a sidesaddle shell holder. Practice allot and get familiar with it, maybe take a course. By the time the finish is worn off you might be serious enough about shotguns to get it refinished and add the ghost ring sites. And if your tactical situation dictates get the vangcomp system. You'll probably have changed stocks 2 or three times by then too.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 9:48:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 9:50:07 AM EDT by Waverunner]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:09:36 PM EDT
A modified choke should be enough choke for your purposes. Over time, I have heard putting slugs through a choked barrel will open up your choke a little. I wouldnt sweat this too much as a modified isnt that much choke. I wouldnt suggest putting them through a full choke, but I assume thats why you want the dual ammo. Keep the 00 for the closer ranges with the slugs for longer ranges.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 4:40:08 PM EDT
Of all the shotguns I've had and still have, I like my High Standard Riot gun. Cylinder choke and goes in ond out of the truck all the time. Does just what I want it to, and really cheap. The 870, and all the others stay home.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:27:10 PM EDT
looks like more quality in your weapon than your cabinet doors .
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:57:44 PM EDT
Shoot, I don't blame him. I wouldn't waste money on Stinkging Gabinet Doors, when I could spend it on ammo and guns.....I hear the call now I think....BUY BUY BUY NOW NOW NOW
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:08:24 PM EDT
Wilson is great, especially if you have an old 870 and send it in for the Remington Steal package. They rebuild the thing for you replacing all the worn parts for $200, of course you know you're going to get some extras as well.

Question to you Wilson afficiendos:

The flexitab anti-jam system; the loading shute looks like it was cut on three sides but not completely cut through. I'm not sure how this is supposed to reduce jams. Anybody care to explain this extra on the Remington steal package??
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:12:05 PM EDT
If you fire a SLUG through a FULL choke barrel it WILL take out the choke.

If you want to do that I reccomend screw in chokes.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 2:33:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
... The flexitab anti-jam system; the loading shute looks like it was cut on three sides but not completely cut through. I'm not sure how this is supposed to reduce jams. Anybody care to explain this extra on the Remington steal package??


The Flexitab Conversion Kit was developed by Remington in the mid-1980’s to address a functioning problem that LE agencies were having with the 870.

The problem occurred when a round in the magazine jumped the shell stop, entered the action, and got wedged between the bolt assembly on the top and the shell carrier on the bottom. The only way to quickly clear this is by cycling the action.

However, as you try to pull the forend back, the friction from the bolt assembly (which is linked to the forend) tends to push the round backward. The rearward movement of the round causes the carrier, which is tapered upward toward the rear of the bolt assembly, to push the round harder upwards against the bolt assembly. This wedging effect ultimately freezes up everything.

Immediate action for this problem was to put the safety on, hold the forend with both hands, and very forcefully slam the buttstock into the ground. This would tear up the round, but would also clear the malfunction. Sometimes the buttstock would be broken during this maneuver.

The Flexitab kit cured this by modifying the bolt assembly, the slide assembly (which mates with the bolt assembly), and the carrier. All three of the parts must be replaced for a correct conversion.

The bolt assembly was changed so it was less affected by pressure from the offending round. Minor improvements were also made to the slide assembly.

The carrier had the cut out “U’ shape put in it. Essentially, if a round jumps the shell stop and starts coming backwards, the rim of the round will put pressure on the “U” shaped tab, which will flex downward slightly. The round’s rearward movement is stopped when the rim passes the end of this tab and hits the unflexing part of the carrier. Also, by flexing, the tab relieves some of the upward pressure the round would otherwise put on the bolt.

With the Flexitab conversion, cycling the forend with only slightly more force than normal will clear the malfunction.

Remington has since added this feature to most, if not all, of its 12 gauge pump shotguns. Older shotguns used for self-defense definitely need modification.

This modification is less critical on sporting shotguns since removing the triggerguard, which is pretty easy on an 870, can also clear the malfunction.

Brownells sells the Remington Flexitab Carrier Conversion Kit for 12 gauge 870’s for $54.05 retail, $43.24 dealer. It’s their part no. 767-933-390 (see page 363, third column, of catalog 54). This kit has a black bolt – Remington used to have the same kit with a chrome bolt but I don’t know if it’s still available.

Hope this makes sense!

Apologies to madmedic for wandering a little off his topic.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 4:01:02 PM EDT
199: Thanks much, you have cleared up a question that even the guy at Wilson was unable to explain to me. I appreciate the Wilson "Remington Steal" package even more now. Especially because my 870 was at least 20-25 years old and was probably worth $100.00. Now its back from Wilson completely refurbished and I have a brand new combat weapon which racks as smoothly as it did before and its worth several times the $200 and change I put into it (I also got the extension, saddle, and sling). essentially a "Border Patrol"

Clearly a deal for anyone with an old 870 laying around.

madmedic my apologies as well
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 6:21:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mos_590:
looks like more quality in your weapon than your cabinet doors .



I guess Waverunner has his priorities straight!
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 2:59:12 AM EDT
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