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Posted: 5/2/2002 11:58:20 AM EDT
Suppose you can't get to your weapon , or suppose you are out of ammo , or suppose your weapon is taken away from you , or suppose your weapon has a major malfunction that cannot be cleared [>Q]. . . . . the threat is still there and coming, so all you have is your bare hands . . .

If you had to pick one martial art that is the all around "best" (i.e. most practical in terms of ease of employment and the most overall applications) which one is it (e.g. Aikido, Judo, Kenjutsu, Tanto, Iaido, Karate, Kung Fu, Kick boxing, boxing, wrestling, Taekwondo, Ju Jutsu)? Why?

Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:27:40 PM EDT
Each person who practices martial arts will say there is the best.

Ok with that said, Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do Is
the most structured. Each technique, chop, block, punch, kicks has a purpose for defense.

We recently went to a big match and it gave me an objective opinion with other practiced forms, I can clearly see an advantage with Jhoon Rhee Style. In addition the way we placed in sparing as a class, its obvious from multi 1st places (my oldest placed 1st his first time ever, it was cool)
what we practice was the most practical for defense.

Before I get flamed, consider this from a old street fighter. You can use some technique you've learned from ANY martial arts, but when it come right down to it anything goes, and technique tends to be an afterthought. Remember, this is coming from a Orange belt, If I had several years experience and a brown or black belt I might reconsider the last statement.

I have several things I would use in the event I was placed in a defensive situation, first goal is not to put yourself in that situation. But if I thought I was going to get my ass kicked, I would use the side kick to the knee cap, but be ready for a law suit.

Jhoon Rhee doesn't put emphasis on fighting, but rather the opposite. If you can't then apply what you've learned and hope for the best.

I personally like guns and kicks, but packing
seems to be the best deterrent good luck
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:31:27 PM EDT
Do you guys have Krav Maga in TX? Not a traditional martial art like the ones you listed. It's an amalgam of a bunch of disciplines rolled into practical street fighting. I was involved in martial arts for a long time (it's genetic in Asians, along with gutless driving skills), and I think this Krav stuff is the most practical thing going. It's disciplined low-down, dirty fighting, and the Israeli guys who I've seen teach it are bad, bad men.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:35:04 PM EDT
Ninpo
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:54:37 PM EDT
Lotboy. Do you know Prather sensei?

I'd say Ninpo or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. FWIW, the D-boys train in Gracie. I haven't studie Sambo, but that seems to be a very practical one as well.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:58:03 PM EDT


GUN FU
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:58:39 PM EDT

good old fashioned whup ass has worked for me.
You can refine your punching and kicking a little but nothing works better than punching a guy 10 times in the head.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:01:55 PM EDT
I guess I should be more specific. . .

For example, I understand that the Federal Bureau of Prisons only teaches their correctional officers 4 basic Akido moves, and that those moves are sufficient for any threat the officer would face. This seems like a hell-of-an endorsement of Akido, considering the types of dudes found in federal prisons (i.e. Marion, Leavenworth, etc.); meaning that those Akido moves are expected to protect against armed (e.g. shanks) and unarmed up close fighting. This is what I mean by "best."

Which martial art is uncomplicated, simple to learn, easy to apply, and offers a wide range of application options?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:08:57 PM EDT
jppj,

Not to sound like a recruiter but the Marine Corps has just recently adopted a new Martial Arts Program that took the place of the line training.

I have taken Tae kwondo and I have checked out several Martial Arts such as kenpo. The bottom line is that the it is a very simple yet effective. No spinning round kicks or lots of flexibility required.

It includes strikes, counter to strikes, chokes and holds, weapons of opportunity, armed manipulation, ground fighting to name a few. We also incorporate classes on pressure points, target areas and muscular gouging.

Basically the Marine Corps took 8 different studies of Martial Arts and combined them into one taking the best out each form.

I respect and admire all different forms of Martial Arts. I like the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program because it addresses all of the scenarios that you propose and then some.

The only problem I can see is that to take the classes you either have to enlist or go through OCS.

If the military thing is not for you then any form of martial arts that is more in line with street fighting then fighting for points.

The only points that matter is that your alive and your opponent is either knocked out or worse.



Max
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:18:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:19:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 1:21:40 PM EDT by markl32]

If you had to pick one martial art that is the all around "best" which one is it? Why?



The one you practice.

All of the time tested martial arts are effective if the practitioner is fast, smooth, and accurate. We all know or seen an experienced street fighter mop the floor with a “black belt”. You may have even seen the converse. Chose what fits your philosophy, body type, and budget. Then work it until you can do it with out thinking. Body type is important. For example if you 47 years old and build like a bulldog the high kicking Tae Kwon Do is not your best choice.

This topic is sorely over looked in today’s defensive weapon mind set (at least for civilians). The fact is a gun is not often a viable option. Example, if some guy is slapping you around in a bar you can not skin your smoke wagon and shoot him. Remember you need to prove ability, opportunity, and jeopardy to justify deadly force (a gun). Or you might get jumped at contact (close) distance making a draw impossible. You need to know how to fight, strike, and wrestle as well.

Edited for spelling...
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:25:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:25:58 PM EDT
oh yeah a good punch to the balls is better than ten to the head. also most people respond well when you shatter their nose or wind pipe.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:31:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 2:16:55 PM EDT
I would say what ever fits your body, How flexible you are and how much time your going to put in. These are my 2 choices For the easiest moves Akido. For mind control and building power External and internal Ti-Chi Yang Style. For your health and also building internal power Chi-Quong. There are lots of different spellings for this.

I have found in my older years that slow and steady win. Train your Body and Mind. When you’re young those nice spin kicks and flying in the air is cool. I studied in Chicago under a guy named Degerberg very good all around killer. This guy named Gary Klineman excelent Ti-Chi and my sensi who I devote my life Allan Pescowictz. He taught a Kung-Fu style called Wu-Chun-Chi-Do. It was in a little place in Rogers Park.

It was an animal system that incorporated 7 animal styles and very powerful including the breaking of wood and brick. I also studied Iron Palm, which was part of the Kung-Fu Syatem. I AM NOT VERY GOOD and am no EXPERT.

Find a system that fits you and just like shooting practice. I love Ti-Chi due to my back, neck problems. I can’t wait to start again I have been studying that system for almost 20 yrs. I usually practice everyday Slow and steady that will increase you inner strength and mind. Let me not forget that what I learned in the service saved my life and these crazy ROCK Shoulders you didn’t want to mess with. They studied Hop-Ki-Do. From that system came TaeKwon-Do.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 2:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 2:33:20 PM EDT by Bullhogan]
Boxing punches & ju-jutsu or wrestlin throws W/
ju-jutsu arm and leg locks.

Jouni

30years,180cm and 110kg of pure pain, no fat!!!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 2:34:27 PM EDT
the toughest guys I have ever known all share the same thing: they were all good high school wrestlers.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 4:55:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Buddha:
Do you guys have Krav Maga in TX? Not a traditional martial art like the ones you listed. It's an amalgam of a bunch of disciplines rolled into practical street fighting. I was involved in martial arts for a long time (it's genetic in Asians, along with gutless driving skills), and I think this Krav stuff is the most practical thing going. It's disciplined low-down, dirty fighting, and the Israeli guys who I've seen teach it are bad, bad men.




I'll second this one. Saw some of this on TV (forget which channel). Looks interesting and effective. Alas, I'm too far out in the middle of nowhere to see it in action.

I'll second Mach1's comment as well, high-school wresters develope skills early that are portable to other arts (overall strengh, flexibility, leverage, grappling, etc...)

my $.02
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 5:37:30 PM EDT
The one you practice.

The one that fits you.

----

I've seen a and done a lot of martial arts. Some people are good at Karate/TKD. Some are good at Aikido/Jujutsu. Some are good at boxing. Some are good at wrestling. It all depends on your philosophy of life and, like anything, you get out of it what you put in.

Me, I'm "at home" when using boxing, wrestling, and hung-gar techniques. Now, I'm getting into Tai Chi. Why? You cannot just develop the external. You've also got to develop the internal.

Mostly, it's what I like to do.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 5:49:52 PM EDT
Pentjak Silat Poekalen Tjmindine. "Silent,Calm,But Deadly." It is an internal style. Very smooth and flowing with movements taken from the Crane,Snake,Tiger and Monkey.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 5:50:52 PM EDT
(SOMETHING NOT ALREADY SAID)

I have studied a handfull of types of fighting styles and have come up with this: Most instructors who teach what ever style of martial arts train with form over function. That is to say that they train in a martial art for classroom form and not the function of really fighting.

If you were to watch martial art students fight in a contest a large amount of the time you will see something that looks like a catfight not well placed movement with contact. The folks who I have seen really fight with function and form have studied for decades.

Well, how does this help? I suggest you keep it simple and stupid. Train with a handfull of simple techniques. (Better to be a master of a few techniques than a failure of many) Train with Boxing / Kickboxing, Wrestling, and Judo.


Link Posted: 5/2/2002 5:54:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 5:56:00 PM EDT by Grock]
Shotokan

Edited to add: Aikido is a nice complement- AI-KI / KI-AI
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:04:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 8:08:09 PM EDT by Sewer_Urchin]
Another consideration is how many opponents you are confronting. In a one on one situation, inside a ring any of the mixed martial arts that combine grapling and striking will do. I have trained with Lion's Den Fighters and have been to several MMA events and none of the styles have a distinct advantage. Whether it is gracie,lion's den,ground and pound, none of them can consistantly beat the other so choose whatever fits you best. If I weren't so pretty I would have taken a few fights. handy.
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/feat/cc/detail.asp?ID=7718
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:08:48 PM EDT
I have studied martial arts for about 20 years off and on - until a couple of years ago I would have said anything that concentrates on effective self defense over fancy kicks or forms.

Now I would say Thai kick boxing. That shit is highly effective going up against any style I have ever seen (including plain old boxers) and even if you block the techniques, it hurts like hell.

But no matter what you decide on, you have to practice at least two times a week to be adequate, three times a week if you want to get good at it.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:13:33 PM EDT
L.I.N.E.

The new Marine Corps martail arts stuff.
I'm not to knowledgeable on it, but it is supposed to be fantastic.

Linear (something) Nuralogical (something)

Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:32:05 PM EDT
Mental preparation, grasshopper.

Whatever techniques you choose, if you are contemplating the possible use of self-defence, you need to come to terms mentally with the high level of aggression needed to be the victor. If your technique calls, for example, for eye gouging, think in advance about what it will really be like to push your fingers into an eye socket and pluck out the mush. Sounds gross - sorry - but its one thing to do these moves in the training environment, and quite another when you actually have to inflict physical (maybe permanent) harm to an individual. Same deal as pulling a shooter... be mentally prepared to use it, and for the consequences (legal and emotional).

If you can't confront this now, better to invest in the Nikes and shed that extra 20 pounds. Just my $0.02.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 10:42:31 PM EDT
Western boxing. It works in the ring and it works on the street.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:45:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 6:44:57 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Excellent thread guys!

Best martial arts?? Well, I've asked this question many times here what I've been through.

I started with Judo when I was grade school and then moved on to Karate then Aikido. These were great arts but most of their techiques went to hell in a real fight. I wrestled in HS and that was very good training next I got into boxing and and in the early 90's started getting into Brazilian Jui-Jitsu and some Muay Thai. BJJ and Boxing seems to be a great combination with wrestling takedowns and Muay Thai kicks, knees and elbows. Again ground fighting is great for one on one but in the street it gets you hurt bad or killed.

In 00 I started questioning all the stuff I'd learned an decided that so much of it was not street applicable. I would say that all of the helped but only a handful of techniques could really be applied when the heat was turned up all the way. My questions lead me to a Fairbairn and Applegate WWII combatives or Gutterfighting. This type of fighting had few solid techniques that were easy to learn and more importantly easy to apply in the street and blended very well with the firearms training I was doing. WWII combatives is so simple compared to the other stuff thats many people just blow it off. I'm not saying all the other stuff I did was worthless but I really think the fighting mindset and techniques used in the old WWII stuff gets down to the nitty gritty of killing someone with your bare hands...

Cheers,

Chris
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:51:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 5:51:56 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
SCARS

www.scars.com/

Mike
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 6:03:58 AM EDT
Nah! You all got it wrong. The BEST is "Chink-Chink-Pau", the way of the BUG.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 6:38:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JPPJ:
Suppose you can't get to your weapon , or suppose you are out of ammo , or suppose your weapon is taken away from you , or suppose your weapon has a major malfunction that cannot be cleared [>Q]. . . . . the threat is still there and coming, so all you have is your bare hands . . .





I say....RUN! RUN LIKE HELL!

Forget about that martial art BS! That's Hollywood! Don't be a fool. Your hands and feets are no match against bullets.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 6:53:24 AM EDT
believe it or not, Tai chi is the best.

You'll have to be a master at tai chi it before it is effective.

Link Posted: 5/3/2002 8:44:22 AM EDT
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.


And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! www.realultimatepower.net/

If you don't believe that ninjas have REAL Ultimate Power you better get a life right now or they will chop your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. These guys are totally awesome and that's a fact. Ninjas are fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to start yoga next year. I love ninjas with all of my body (including my pee pee).
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 10:52:25 AM EDT
I like Carls Hathcock's, "White Feather" style and Chink Chink Pow the best. But, the question was for empty hand. In that case what, ever you are proficient with. To be competent in any skill it has to be ingrained and practiced regularly. For this reason it is best for most to be practiced in a few basic skills. Unless, you devote a substantial portion of your time formal martial arts are a waste of your time. That being said, the most important weapon is your brain. Situational awareness is a very big factor in the survivability of any potential SHTF scenario.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 2:20:36 PM EDT
I don't think it matters very much what "art" you study as long as your the most ruthless bastard in the fight. Most people don't have access to more than a couple different styles in their areas. Choose one. Then poke eyes, crush tracheas, get them down and kick them, and break joints.
As a practical matter, I find memorizing katas to be far less useful than having a few solid, dangerous techniques.
Remember:
- Destroy the biggest opponent first.
- Don't fight at all unless your willing risk crippling someone. Half-hearted fighting is a sure ticket to getting beat up/seriously injured.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 11:41:06 PM EDT
meng po, I cant tell you anything about it though, or I'd have to kill you.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 11:52:51 PM EDT
nude leap-frog
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 1:24:21 PM EDT
- Don't fight at all unless your willing risk crippling someone. Half-hearted fighting is a sure ticket to getting beat up/seriously injured.


You got that right . . .
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 4:09:02 PM EDT
Hmmmm, very interesting topic. We are all very big on packing heat for defense and are meticulous in every detail of our firearms. But we often ignore the hand to hand fighting we may find ourselves in.
I have trained in many martial arts since my teenage years and think that all of them hold some potential and have effective moves. However some seem geared more toward sport than real fighting. I actually use 4 different philosophies and practice them regularly.

1. Jeet Kune Do........this is a very ruthless, fast, powerful and easy to learn self defense system developed by the legendary Bruce Lee. It involves using elbows, knees, head-butts, and some other vicious stuff. This is what I will use for striking when on my feet.
2. Aikido......this is a complicated style but very effective as it allows you to simply pin and hold or to break bones with the same movement. Aikido is what I would use on drunks or people that I didn't want to seriously injure. It is also very effective in pinning someone and holding them there. As a high school teacher, I have used aikido techniques many times in the past to break up fights safely and quickly. The wrist locks and joint manipulations are great to get girl's to release their grasp on their opponents hair (without hurting either of them)! And aikido is purely a defensive art so you would be less liable in a legal situation. Aikido uses the attacker's energy against himself.
3. Brazilian Ju-Jitsu.........In a fight of any type, it is likely that you'll be on the ground at some point. This is where many are lacking in skills and vulnerable. This system of ground fighting will offer you the ability to severly injure (or inflict pain) on your opponent even if they are on top of you. It is effective and can also be rather ruthless.
4.Filipino arts........... When it comes to weapons forms, I love the simplicity and effectiveness of this art. I only use this when practicing knife defenses or defenses against sticks, ball bats, etc. Filipinos are some of the toughest fighters on the planet and I feel confident in using that system when dealing with knife wielding opponents. While I can't explain every detail here, it involves stepping back and striking the attacker's knife hand with your weapon..whatever that might be. He has to overextend to reach you but you have a much shorter distance to strike in order to hit his weapon hand. This is called "defanging the snake". Your knife slashing a huge gash in his hand or your stick hitting his knuckles at 125 mph is gonna make his will to fight a little less!
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 4:17:35 PM EDT
If I were recommending a martial arts program to a loved one, I would recommend they study each of these 4 as IMHO, they are the best. I have nothing against Muy Thai kickboxing, but when in a fight, it is basically still using your skills against the opponent. I like to cheat, be deceptive and use simple, easy to remember stuff that takes away my opponents advantages that I will assume he has in each fight. That's how you win and stay alive. Never get involved with standing toe to toe in some macho BS match. Because in such a case, it is entirely who has the best skills. Which would you rather do...stand toe to toe with a 6'5" Somoan trading punches and kicks? Or would you rather just flick your fingers into his eyes at first contact and be done with it? Think about it. Fighting isn't a game, it is deadly serious. While I would hate to seriously hurt someone, if ever in a fight I am going to be decisive and ruthless. But I am not going to be in a situation like that unless it is a last resort because I avoid trouble at all costs. That way if I ever find myself in a serious streetfight, I can be justified in my actions. Even so, I still train to injure to degree....that way I am left with other options than breaking bones or killing.
Whatever art you choose, practice it regularly and keep an open mind. And never feel bad about having a few well polished techniques. You don't have to be a black belt to defend yourself. As I have said, I have yet to see any one art that alone covered all forms of fighting. That way you don't start thinking that one art you are involved in is the "best" and then find out later and perhaps at great cost, that is isn't. Anyway good luck and enough of me rambling on about martial arts!
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 4:07:42 AM EDT
Revisiting:

There is no best martial art. There can be the best martial art that fits you, but they all have good points and bad points.

However, any martial art instructor that says, "If you train in this art, you'll be invincible!" or "I'll turn you into a master in a year!" or "At the end of the day, you'll be a MASTER KILLER!" should be strictly avoided. He's either crazy or he's a conman looking for your money. Possibly both.

Also avoid anyone who says:
"Fear does not exist in this dojo!"
"Pain does not exist in this dojo!"
"Defeat does not exist in this dojo!"
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:02:08 PM EDT
Run-ki-do! Escape to fight another day when the odds are in your favor.
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