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Posted: 4/29/2002 10:55:00 AM EDT
They supposedly have a M4 kit out now.Anyone seen or tried one yet??


Link Posted: 4/29/2002 11:03:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2002 11:05:00 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Like on their web-site, here:www.gunkits.com/rifles.html



That's all I know about em.

Mike
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 11:09:21 AM EDT
I have seen them at their store. They look nice.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 11:11:19 AM EDT
Myself and an ex-SEAL buddy both bought one. I love them. Mine is on an SP1 slabside. I have the Trijicon Reflex II on a flat top, MAD sight, sling adaptors and a Surefire mounted under the fore stock. Neat thing about them are that the barrels are true 14.5 with a pinned flash hider making it just 16". Others are a 16 bbl, with the suppressor making it 17" or longer.

People give them a bad time because they are not chrome lined. Having spent time in the Army, I don't see a need for chrome in a civilian setting. Don't live in FL or South America. I also clean mine every so often....
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:22:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech2:
Myself and an ex-SEAL buddy both bought one. I love them. Mine is on an SP1 slabside. I have the Trijicon Reflex II on a flat top, MAD sight, sling adaptors and a Surefire mounted under the fore stock. Neat thing about them are that the barrels are true 14.5 with a pinned flash hider making it just 16". Others are a 16 bbl, with the suppressor making it 17" or longer.

People give them a bad time because they are not chrome lined. Having spent time in the Army, I don't see a need for chrome in a civilian setting. Don't live in FL or South America. I also clean mine every so often....



You might see a need for chrome lining if you get an M16. One of my friends just declared his non-chromed no-name 11.5" barrel dead after 6000 rounds due to the fact that it sometimes can't keep five rounds on a piece of paper at 25m and it frequently keyholes at 50m. That's five (5) trips to the range and it was a heavy barrel too. I could see the accuracy going away after about 4000 rounds.
No Wolf. No Barnaul. Some Chinese. Mostly S. African, Israeli, GI ball and reloads. No full Beta-mag dumps either, just 30 rd. GI mags. It ran fine after some gas port diddling and having the .223 chamber reamed out to 5.56 specs.

As for being in the Army, I was too. I can see a pretty pronounced need for chrome lined barrels. I'm not sure where you were at, but I was at Ft. Huachuca for a little over 3 years during my eight years in. I was rather glad that in my time chasing MIOBC 2LTs around the west range we had to worry very little about rusty bores. I'm also glad that the generally rough and careless cleaning hurt the bores less due to being chrome-lined. That helped me shoot expert every time I qualified. Not that it's hard to do. How many folks use the crappy GI cleaing rod and tear the shit out of the throat or crown of their barrel because they clean their pea shooter just like a DI told them to?

My understanding is that chrome lining has a lot more to do with durability than corrosion resistance. I've seen some impact on reliability when firing full auto, but a lot of that can be attributed to proper chamber size.

If your M4gery is a semi-auto range queen then I say skip the chrome if you want. If you use it for IPSC or any action oriented shooting or full-auto or even fire tracers then "Go Chrome or Go Home" as the kids like to say these days.

I don't see much difference in cleaning after just a couple hundred rounds when comparing chromed versus non-chromed. After 800+ rounds I can say that a chrome lined barrel cleans up WAY easier, especially the chamber.

If any of you think that a chrome-lined carbine length barrel is less accurate than a non-lined barrel, I say humbug. You can see a greater variance in different brands of ammo. You may be right but you're only a little right and few people are good enough shots to see the difference. That whole discussion of chromed vs. non-chromed accuracy should be relegated to 20" and longer match/varmint uppers. It's a non-issue in a field/duty/plinking/hosing gun.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 2:34:16 PM EDT
J_E_D,

I agree with the military part of your statement. I just think that chrome will not be that important on an AR-15 semi in civilian settings where somebody goes out for a few hours of plinking. Especially if they clean it after that session. I shoot a few hundred rounds at each session. I clean the living hell out of it with a bore snake (used to be the unit armorer for a short time).

If you are going to shoot an M16, beta mags or tracers, I'd obviously go chrome because of the bore life. I think we both agree on that, also.

As for the Army LT, scariest thing in the army is a shiney new LT with a gun or a map! I was Inf/Ranger for 4 years. I trained M16 marksmanship for a summer at USMA. We called them "Cadidiots" for a reason.

BTW, I'm in Tempe. I shoot at Caswells often.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 11:44:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech2:
J_E_D,

I agree with the military part of your statement. I just think that chrome will not be that important on an AR-15 semi in civilian settings where somebody goes out for a few hours of plinking. Especially if they clean it after that session. I shoot a few hundred rounds at each session. I clean the living hell out of it with a bore snake (used to be the unit armorer for a short time).

If you are going to shoot an M16, beta mags or tracers, I'd obviously go chrome because of the bore life. I think we both agree on that, also.

As for the Army LT, scariest thing in the army is a shiney new LT with a gun or a map! I was Inf/Ranger for 4 years. I trained M16 marksmanship for a summer at USMA. We called them "Cadidiots" for a reason.

BTW, I'm in Tempe. I shoot at Caswells often.



I think we're in violent agreement.
I didn't mean to fixate on that statement but I had just had that argument with a coworker who used to be a 45B in the Army. For you Marines and Zoomies that's a Depot level small arms repairman, er, repairperson.

Fresh new 2LT's going through the Military Intelligence school are particularly scary as far as new LT's go. They've been given just enough of a glimpse at the world of intel that they sometimes start developing their James Bond complex. The prior service guys aren't bad but the others are truly clueless, especially West Point graduates. There's nothing wrong with West Point except that they blow sunshine up the asses of their graduates for 4 years about how they're all McArthur Jr. When these preprogrammed idiots get to a school or finally to their unit, they still believe all that garbage. As an NCO, I wouldn't give a 2LT any more benefit of the doubt than I would a private, no matter what academy they came from. Honestly, the VMI guys seemed the most well adjusted.

It's like the joke about what piece of military equipment is every LT qualified to operate?

A chem light, because you have to break it to use it.

I told that to a female 2LT that I was training on a TLQ-17 jammer. By Gawd she could handle putting chem lights on the guy wires for the LPA to make the safety Nazis happy but not much else.

Now for some ASA stuff. Unless you're in AZ and can drive to ASA, I say don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. They've got a good looking post-ban M4gery, but I sure as shit wouldn't order as much as a flash supressor from them ever again. I was building up a pre-ban M4gery for a friend and ASA screwed me over with substandard and out of spec parts. It was things like fire control parts, missing pins and an improperly assembled carrier. The charging handle broke too.

Fork that icehole that runs ASA.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 1:43:47 PM EDT
J_E_D,

Never a violent agreement with former Army guys.

Hell, I'd buy you a beer or 2 or 20 when I meet you. I have so many stories about things I did to the officer corps.

I agree that a chem lite is about par for the course...

You are abolutely right about ASA and out of spec parts. Bad quality control and the need to make your margin. I drive up all the time and deal with them but you really need to hand pick your stuff. They're working on the out of spec problem. I'll have to bring that up with them next time. Sorry you had so much trouble.

I do agree with you on everything you said. I live here so I can go up and grab 'em by the throat and complain if I need to.

I just don't think you absolutley need chrome on a civil AR. I know guys who are mental about it. I also know guys who claim that if it's not Colt, it's a copy. Not true. Colt is a clone, also. You want the genuine? Get a Fairchild division ArmaLite! They started it all.

Take care.
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