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Posted: 4/26/2002 1:48:13 PM EDT
I've been thinking about getting a semi-auto .308 and cant make up my mind. I really like the m1a but there are so many other good options. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:50:07 PM EDT
If $$$ is not a problem I like the HK products.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:50:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:53:33 PM EDT
Whats the next best to hte HK?
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:54:53 PM EDT
My M1A has been nothing but accurate and reliable, not to mention it is a classic beauty. I wish I would have gotten the GI barrel instead of the stainless barrel, but overall I'm extremly pleased.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:59:05 PM EDT
FAL is the only way to go. Lighter, cheaper, very reliable, and lots of fun. Talk to the guys at www.arizonaresponsesystems.com, they will build you a custom flawless shooter at a great price. Oh and welcome to the (.308) fold.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 2:15:49 PM EDT
The HK 91's only redeeming value is that it goes bang EVERY time. Other than that they suck. The trigger is for crap, you have to have a 9" index finger to drop the mag while keeping your hand on the grip, you need a 6" thumb to flip the safety off/on and the destroy your brass.

M1A's are sweet shooters, but you need a bank loan to get a modest collection of magazines.

I don't have a FAL, but it's on my short list. The ergonomics are not as good as an AR, but far better than a 91. Mags are plentiful and cheap and from what I hear the accuracy is more than acceptable for a battle rifle.

If I remember correctly I saw some ARS built FAL's at a shop I was in in Phoenix. They were very nice. The DSA guns also get good press. Not sure what I'll end up with but I'll add a FAL to the collection one of these days.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:00:11 PM EDT
BULLSHIT on the HK rap.



Controls are very workable for me, and I reload the brass from this rifle.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:10:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2002 3:14:36 PM EDT by SGB]

Originally Posted By schapman43:
Whats the next best to hte HK?



Who said that HK was the Best?

You need to handle {and if possible shoot} each one and decide which one is "BEST" for you.IMHO



PS: M1A <--------------BEST
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:16:04 PM EDT
CITADELGRAD,

Nice rifle, very nice.

What did you do in the Military?
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:18:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:24:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 3:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

I agree, the PSG style stock



That is an MSG-90 stock. I stil want one for my 91, tho
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:33:44 PM EDT
Either the HK or one of each of all the rest - the price is the same!
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 5:55:25 PM EDT
Depends on what you're looking for.

If you want accuracy, get an AR-10 or M1A. (FAL just ain't gonna get there. HK-91, you have to spend too much money)

If you want consistent accuracy: AR-10.

If you want modularity: AR-10 (sorry... you cannot convert the others from a run-n-gun carbine to a target rifle in 30 seconds)

If you want ergonomics: AR-10 or FAL (toss up. i prefer the ergos of the AR-10)

If you want reliability: FAL or HK91.

If you want rugged "I can use this as a battle axe": HK91

If you want ease of mounting optics: AR-10, then FAL, then HK91, then M1A: in order of PITA.

If you want bang-for-the-buck: FAL. (unless you're buying a clone, you're just not getting your money's worth out of the HK91. They're not junk. But they are over priced. Too many weenies will pay out the ass for it because it's an HK. The cost of rigging them for accuracy is also high.)
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 7:03:27 PM EDT
see my alias.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 7:47:28 PM EDT
I have owned a Galil in .308, an HK91 and currently an M1A. Got rid of the Galil because I could not find mag or anything else for it (this was 12 years or more ago). Sold it and purchased an HK91. Decent rifle, reliable but not that accurate and could not afford any goodies for it (mags, scope mounts ect.) Ergonomics are terrible I agree with everything Hipower said. I purchased the M1A while I still owned the HK and liked it so much that I decided I did not need the HK anymore so I got rid of it (do not regret it one bit). I'm looking at FAL's now, handled a few and I could tell just from handling them that I liked them a lot more than the HK. Of course all of this is just my opinion. Look at them, handle them and if you can shoot them. I do suggest you take a strong look at the M1A and the FAL though. Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 10:52:17 PM EDT
If money is a concern, I'd say go with the FAL. I own 3 of them 2 Imbel Kits on Imbel receivers, and 1 G1 on an Imbel receiver. I've got a total of about $650.00 in the G1 which includes the Kit from Gunthings.com, the Receiver from Dealers Warehouse, and the $40.00 furniture set and sleeved G1 flash hider from Tapco. Also includes $200.00 for teflon coating from bearcoat arms. I do not include tool purchase in the rifle cost, but you do not need all the tools I bought to assemble one. I'm just a tool junkie!!!

I've got around $800.00 in the Imbels, but I did wood furniture on one, and the x-series furniture on the other along with a little custom gun work from Rockymountain/Bearcoat Arms.

Not as accurate as I'd like, but really nice rifles, really reliable.

2 weeks ago I bought a Loaded M1A rifle, just got it broken in last week, and I'm really impressed with the accuracy of the rifle, only down side is the price and the magazine prices. $1,700.00 for the rifle and $40.00 to $60.00 per magazine is a little much for some peoples budget, but reliablity and accuracy are impressive. Not to mention it was my dream rifle that I fell in love with when I was about 10 years old. She is a beautiful rifle!!!!!!

Can't really comment on the HK or CETME never shot one. Bob at Rockymountain Arms suggests the CETME over the HK, but adds that is just his opinion. Other than that, and the posts on this website, are my only experience with these rifles.

Good luck with whatever you choose, if you ask me they are all nice firearms!!!
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 11:15:25 PM EDT
I'll give my 2 cents worth and say that the CETME is a fun gun. Mine has been a good rifle, haven't had any problems with it. It recoils less than a 91, mags are cheap, wood furniture, (okay, that's personal pref, to each their own), mine is plenty accurate, about 2 moa with surplus, trigger isn't great but can be improved somewhat. Yes, there are some out there that are not great, and you will hear horror stories about them, but I've heard them about FAL frankenguns too. Depends on what you want to do with the gun really. I'd probably go with the M1A if I had the money, but right now that kind of money is going towards preban AR's for me. Anyway...I think for an all around shooter, unless you want match accuracy the CETME or FAL both give good bang for the buck, and mags are cheap. I'll probably be building an FAL to go with my new FAL mags very soon...lol
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 11:31:14 PM EDT
Hey TOW2B & Aimless,

I've been searching on Google, Yahoo, & Lycos, because I've never heard of a CITADELGRAD rifle. Pardon my ignorance on this, but you've got my interest here.

What is a CITADELGRAD Rifle, and can you point me at a website with some info about it?

starsil9
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 11:46:48 PM EDT
Get an HK-91. If you can't afford the true HK, get the next best thing....a SAR-8. Steel receiver made by proxy in Greece on HK machinery you're looking at about $1100-1300. On an aluminum receiver (which I own) it'll be around $650-850. Whatever negative things you've heard about the aluminum receiver is B.S. the receiver only has a bad rap because it isn't steel and is less like the TRUE HK. It DOES NOT affect functionality.

Here is a picture:
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 5:23:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By starsil9:
Hey TOW2B & Aimless,

I've been searching on Google, Yahoo, & Lycos, because I've never heard of a CITADELGRAD rifle. Pardon my ignorance on this, but you've got my interest here.

What is a CITADELGRAD Rifle, and can you point me at a website with some info about it?

starsil9



LMAO, starsil9.

Citadelgrad is the name of the person who posted the pic of his HK91 up towards the top. They were talking to him, saying he had a nice rifle.

Hope this clears things up
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 5:26:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SKSGuy:
Get an HK-91. If you can't afford the true HK, get the next best thing....a SAR-8. Steel receiver made by proxy in Greece on HK machinery you're looking at about $1100-1300. On an aluminum receiver (which I own) it'll be around $650-850. Whatever negative things you've heard about the aluminum receiver is B.S. the receiver only has a bad rap because it isn't steel and is less like the TRUE HK. It DOES NOT affect functionality.



The aluminum itself doesn't affect functionality...as long as it was molded correctly. I have a friend with a AL SAR-8, and it has plenty of problems. When people rag on the AL receivered guns, it's not because of what they're made of. It's because they are turds compared to the earlier steel receivered SAR-8's.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 6:21:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2002 6:22:32 AM EDT by schapman43]
Thanks again for all the great info guys. I'm thinking I will probably go with the M1A because my favorite shop carries them and has layaway . Does the military still have M1's in there inventory? They are M14's to them though, right? Anyway, anyone have a good source for mags? Also, what is a decent asking price for a new M1 in standard configuration?
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 8:10:49 AM EDT
Her is a link ... Ok... one day I will remember how to make it active ...

So since it is not active .. cut and paste it in your browser...

http://www.coledistributing.com/MM054.ASP?i=&pageno=31&cat=Magazines

Good service ...

Ted...
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 8:18:14 AM EDT
All these yaahoos on an ar-15 board, who swear up and down the ar-15 is the greatest thing in the world, then go and tell you that for a 30 cal design, its big brother is not the one to get.

CMON!!!!

ARMALITE AR-10

Same design, nothing new to learn to use or clean, Armalite's incredible warranty. Who you gonna send a fal to get it fixed, if something unforseend happens. Many custom smiths avail to trick out your ar-10 when you want to, and Gungho is correct, what other gun can go from target grade to carbine in 30 seconds?


AR-10 all the way, you won't be dissapointed.

WL

Link Posted: 4/27/2002 8:24:56 AM EDT
Does anyone know what Armalites warranty is? I know Springfield has a lifetime warranty and they are great to deal with.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 3:56:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2002 3:58:15 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 4:23:13 PM EDT
I am saving to buy an AR10T myself. But I have shot FAL's and find them accurate and reliable. Also takedown is very easy and simple. If you are getting a weapon for SHTF and some target get the FAL. If money is no object you want Accurate for serious Target and SHTF get the AR10.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 6:48:49 PM EDT
i have a fal. it is bad to the bone. the recoil is like a shove rather that a kick like an ak. mags are cheap and dsa arms has any part you might need to replace. i like the adjustable gas setting. you adjust it based on the type of ammo. the only thing you would need would be a scope mount and a good scope. i am also looking to buy either a cetme or a hk91. does anyone have a website that has pricing? i cant seem to find them anywhere?

thanks
lojack
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 6:53:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2002 7:02:08 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 7:22:29 PM EDT
Thanks Brouhaha,

It was late at night and I was a little confused about what they were talking about. They are correct the Rifle CITADELGRAD posted the pic of, is hot.

Also, if anyone is interested you can check out www.robarm.com and click on the link to the Quality Made Russian Firearms.

Take a look at the VEPR II .308, from what I've been reading on AK47.net that they are very accurate. Price is nice to, only about $600.00 per rifle. Magazines for the .308 have to come from Robinson Armament, but they are not to overpriced either.

I know that there are many fans that love the AR10, and as much as I love my AR15s I can really understand why. I was seriously thinking about one, the only thing that keeps me from buying an AR10 is the magazines.

It's bad enough that M14 USGI mags are $40.00 to $60.00 a piece new in wrap. I hesitated for 2 years on the Purchase of the M1A because of the price on the mags. Having to send them in for modification at $20.00 per mag. or trading 2 for 1 is a bit much for me.

I may get over this and buy one in the future, but for now it is a turnoff about the rifle. Especially when I know 2 gunsmiths that have demontrated to me how Armalite Engineers could have built the lower to accept the M14 mags without modification. I've read that they decided to use the M14 mags because they were the best quality magazines at a great price at the time. Yet I cannot understand why they decided that keeping the Mag release the same for the AR10 as the AR15 was so important that they would require every magazine for the rifle to be modified. Especially when a redesign of the catch/release would have been a simple task, and then their customers could purchase magazines without the hassel of modifying them.

Just my opinion!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 10:21:12 PM EDT
For Cetme, FAL, AK try

Wholesale guns and ammo

Aim surplus

Southern Ohio Gun

Century (yuck)
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 3:34:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 4:49:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
The aluminum itself doesn't affect functionality...as long as it was molded correctly. I have a friend with a AL SAR-8, and it has plenty of problems. When people rag on the AL receivered guns, it's not because of what they're made of. It's because they are turds compared to the earlier steel receivered SAR-8's.


What he said.

And, I agree: if you're going to get a 91 clone, find an SAR-8. Don't buy a CETME or a Hesse or some other weapon-of-questionable-origin.

I loved my HK91. However, I cashed out when people went crazy with what they'd pay for one. They're good rifles. They're not $3000 rifles. (what some retard paid for mine two years ago)
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 10:51:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:
BULLSHIT on the HK rap.



Controls are very workable for me, and I reload the brass from this rifle.



No bullshit. If you can drop the mag out of the rifle pictured while leaving your hand on the grip, you have the longest fingers of any human on the planet, and you are the only one that can. This can be improved by spending more money on an already overpriced rifle to get the paddle mag release. As far as I know there is nothing you can do to make the safety an easier reach.

Also, If I'm not mistaken that is NOT a stock HK91 trigger group on your rifle. You probably replaced the stock unit, because the stock trigger sux. ;-)

If you shoot off a bench, those short commings will mean little to you.

If you want to shoot a 3 gun match or want a combat rifle, they will take on more significance.

I stand by the statment that the best thing about an HK91 is it works EVERY time and that the ergonomics of the gun suck out loud.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 11:06:24 AM EDT
STG 58 THE ONLY WAY TO GO MAN!!!
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 11:10:46 AM EDT
Hi, Power.

I can reach it with the tip of my trigger finger. It's a stretch, but I can reach it with my hand on the PG. I never even considered a flapper type release.

The safety is right there for me, right where I reach for it.

Trigger is stock HK, PSG1, to be exact, but that rifle came from the factory that way.

That IS my precision rifle, not one of my "battle" rifles.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 1:18:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:
Hi, Power.

I can reach it with the tip of my trigger finger. It's a stretch, but I can reach it with my hand on the PG.



But could you do it while kneeling, after firing unsupported around a barricade, minimizing your exposure, while your left hand reached for a full mag? I don't have small hands and I can't without significant wiggling. The movement required makes it is WAY slower than an AR or M1A mag change. The matches I've been shooting required that kind of dynamic gun handling. The result was targets exposed that were not engaged. In a match, a bad score, in other scenarios maybe a lot worse. I will say that for this type of match, the AR's ergonomics are very tough to beat.

I haven't used a PSG1 equipped rifle, but being that that is HK's precison rifle trigger group, I'm willing to bet it's a darn sight better than the "plain vanilla" 91's.

From what I understand, the mag drop button on the 91/93 rifles are a nod to political correctness since I believe the G3 has a paddle release that's operated with the off hand, similar to an M1A. I do know that both HK and the aftermarket offer options for a release that could be operated by the off hand.

I really think the FAL has to be the most bang for the buck in a .308 military pattern rifle. You can have a decent one put together for less than an M1 and way less than an HK91, and 20 round mags are way cheap. I gotta' get one, one of these days.

PS What's that layin' on the table on the other side of the PSG?

PPS to the AR10 crowd: I sad bad on you for creating more demand for already expensive M1A mags.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 1:26:32 PM EDT
If you have the money don't compromise buy the M1A and if you don't have $1500 to invest buy a FAL, the mags are cheap and there is a zillion add ons for the rifle, they are awesome.

Go to J&G sales in AZ they have them for around $500.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 1:34:06 PM EDT
HiPower,

Totally agree on the FAL ergonomics, in fact, my current favorite is a shorty Izzy clone, 16" barrel, very handy and, OK, I'll admit, easier ot operate than the HK.

You can just see the last 8" or so to the extreme right of my rifle in the pic.

That's a Galil .223 right next to my rifle, but it's not mine.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 2:59:10 PM EDT
I own a ArmaLite AR10 with a 20" A2 and 16" flat-top uppers, A Century assembled CETME on a SW cast receiver, and a Century assembled L1A1 on an IMBEL receiver. The AR10 worked right out of the box, the two Century masterpieces I had to fool with. If I had to choose to only keep one, it would be the AR10. The CETME is my least favorite (awkward charging handle, less than ideal sights). The only downside to the AR10 is the costly magazines.

OSA
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:35:11 PM EDT
I own a SAR-48 (FAL copy), good friend of mine owns the SAR-8 (91 copy). Both are excellent rifles and I would recommend either. I can't reach the mag release or safety selector on the HK, but if you've got big enough hands, maybe some can. As far as accuracy goes, we both shoot clay's at 200 yards with irons, (longest range we have). In regards to trigger quality, practice makes it just as good as any other.

Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:38:43 PM EDT
CITADELGRAD87, where did you get the furniture? it is one sweet rifle. i saw one like that and i feel in love with it. i am going to the gun show in big town this weekend to try and pick one up. i have heard about the cetmes. can you switch out the barrel on a cetme with one from a hk? also, you gotta give me the website so i can get some furniture like that after i get my rifle.

thanks
lojack
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:44:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2002 5:04:45 PM EDT by BallisticTip]
I like all of them, if I had to choose one it would be a very hard decision !!
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