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Posted: 4/21/2002 3:02:30 PM EDT
Heres yet another home defense question. I have 2 choices only so this should be easy.

Average suburban neighborhood, average size house (3 bed, 2 bath), just my wife and I (no kids) but overpenetration IS an issue.

Should I use:

1)AR15a2 (20" barrel). Not sure which ammo type (FMJ, SP, or HP) would be best.

or

2) M1 Carbine (only FMJ or SP ammo is available to the best of my knowledge).

In which would overpenetration be less of a problem? M1 Carbine is lighter and handier than my AR15, but AR has double the mag capacity and greater stopping power.

Decisions, decisions...
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:30:34 PM EDT
I personally favor the AR-15 but an M1 Carbine loaded with JSP rounds is nothing to sneeze at. Definitely more powerful than a handgun. I'd go with whichever one functions with 100% reliability with defensive ammo. So, if you're comfortable with the M1 Carbine, use it.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the AR-15A2 with a 20" A2 barrel is very heavy or awkward at all. Go figure.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:53:49 PM EDT
M1 Carbine loaded with JSPs in a 30-round magazine. The Carbine has great "stopping power," it is supposedly equivalent with the .357 Magnum (at 10 yards) out to 150 yards. Noise would be a factor in my opinion. Neither weapon are that great for home defense unless you are in a barracade situation defending against hoards of looters. A good pistol is a much better choice in my personal opinion (for what that's worth).

Between the 2 I'd go with the Carbine. However, I think that a handgun is a vastly superior choice for home defense situations because it is a one-handed weapon (you'll be opening doors, operating switches, a flashlight, moving or carrying loved ones, and possibly grappling with an intruder at close range, all of which makes the handgun better suited).
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:56:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 3:58:58 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 4:44:58 PM EDT
I agree with the above post about shotgun or pistol as first choice.

Though I am no weapons expert, I'd choose the M-1 Carbine if down to a choice between the two, only because I feel it'd have just a slightly higher chance of chambering a first round without a malfunction, all other things being equal, though an AR would probably be just as reliable.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:17:39 PM EDT
The M1 would be more handy than the 20" AR. The overall length is less & M1's are so light it's ridiculous. The .30carbine with soft/hollowpoint ammo should be plenty powerfull for home defense. Essentially a 15-30 shot .357mag. The M1 is light enuff to hold & aim 1 handed if you had too while opening doors, etc. Less muzzleblast, & a buttstroke won't break anything. Finally, if you do end up shooting & it goes to trial the M1 looks like a .22 plinker to a jury while the AR looks like a 'machine gun' to the sheeple.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:46:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:57:40 PM EDT
If you decide to go with the M1, and want to use 30rd mags in it, use ONLY USGI magazines! After-market mags are too unreliable. Oh, yeah...you'll want to install an M2 magazine catch, as well. The M1 carbine is my choice for Home defense, too.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:03:03 PM EDT
My only concern between the two would be ammo availability.

If .30 carbine is common and/or cheap in your area, or you like reloading... go for the M1 Carbine. It's really a great little gun, and it's handier than an AR-15. (I think the AR-15's a better gun, but it's not as handy.. Hell in a pinch, you can shoulder and fire the M1 carbine one-handed)

However, if you have trouble getting .30 carbine in your area... then I'd suggest the AR-15. You shouldn't use a gun you cannot afford to be familiar with for home defense.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 5:43:53 PM EDT
I Have My M1 carbine next to my bed loaded with JSP, 2 extra mags with 5 in the mag and full 10 round stripper clips attached to the mags (to extend mag life)

Josh223
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 8:49:39 PM EDT
Consider the M1 Carbine w/a good folding stock. Very handy and quick to get into action. I think Winchester still makes HP ammo. I have some, and if it functions in yours consider it. Handguns are fine, but in a tense situation, two hands on a long gun provide a steadier platform.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 8:58:26 PM EDT
M1 .30 cal Carbine w/soft points
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:01:42 PM EDT
Another vote for the M1 Carbine. Lighter, easier to manipulate in the most common forms availble of the two guns, and no need to worry about offset if a precision shot at close range is needed. More accuracy than a pistol, and capable of one-handed use, although why anyone would want to be doing house clearing exercises by themselves is beyond me. The proper method of home defense is forting up and making the bad guy come to you, not going out hunting him.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:02:44 PM EDT
good overall choice.
keep in mind that you will get more penetration from the .30 carbine round.
BTW, using a rifle for home defense is very different than a handgun in terms of handling, use and retention.
bottom line, practice with what you use.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:09:22 AM EDT
Definitely go with the M1 Carbine for home defense. But please use HP ammo. Aside from over penetration, a justifiable shooting may be tarnished with the use of an AR15, in the eyes of an anti-gun or an over-zealous prosecutor. The M1 Carbine is a benign looking weapon as compared to the AR15. Use of the AR15 might make you appear to be a "war monger" and "looking forward to blowing someone away" in the eyes of the local prosecutor or PD. Not my opinion, of course. Just a law enforcement officer that has seen more than anyone needs to see.

Sgtgeorge
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:00:50 AM EDT
Go with the M1. The last thing you want to do is send that 223 bullet into your neighbors house. The M1 with JHP would have a very difficult time penetrating several walls and entering a 2nd house. I really don't think the 223 out of a 20" barrel would not have much difficulty penetrating multiple walls.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:09:27 AM EDT
I'd go with the AR and 55 gr SP ammo. The high velocity will cause the SP to disentigrate when it hits drywall. 110 gr SP from an M1 probably would not disentigrate and would penetrate walls.

Sounds like a good experiment to perform the next time you go to the range.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:47:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 8:49:10 AM EDT by quietshoez]
stay tuned everyone, quietshoez will be testing the following rounds in penetration of painted standard drywall (2 layers of said material is the makeup of most interior domicile walls.)
5.56 SA
5.56 ss109
5.56 55gr SP
5.56 lake city
in a 20" and 16" 1 in 9 twist barrel

12 ga slugs
12 ga 00 buck
12 ga #4
12 ga #7 1/2"
in a remington 870 police model, 18" smoothbore bbl

9mm 124 gr speer GDHP
9mm 115gr winchester JHP
9mm 124 gr hydrashok HP
in a 4" glock

.38 spl 158 gr lead
.357 mag 125 gr hydrashok
in a s&w model 66 4" bbl

.22 lr quikshok
.22 lr wildcat
.22 lr stingers
in a ruger 10/22

SP, FMJ and HP in .30 cal m1 carbine
jhp,fmj in 7.62 SKS.

stay tuned kids, results to follow............
(edited to add rounds will be tested at various ranges and varying angles of deflection.)


Link Posted: 4/23/2002 12:11:27 PM EDT
Unless you intend to hold up in one room and not move around your house when there is an intruder, a pistol is a much better idea.
If you have to use the Carbine or the AR select your load carefully SP or HP for the carbine and some varmit bullets with very light jackets for the AR. 2 cents please.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:13:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
Another vote for the M1 Carbine. Lighter



Some of my AR type rifles weight less than an M1 Carbine.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:28:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 8:33:46 PM EDT by 10112002]

Originally Posted By wlynn5:
Unless you intend to hold up in one room and not move around your house when there is an intruder, a pistol is a much better idea.
If you have to use the Carbine or the AR select your load carefully SP or HP for the carbine and some varmit bullets with very light jackets for the AR. 2 cents please.



excellent point! but i'll take it one step farther and say that you should use extreme prejudice in clearing your own home.

if i really thought someone was in my home, i would NOT go room to room try to find the SOB. i'll grab the rifle and the kids and hole up in the designated 'safe' room, while the hubby grabs the shotgun and the phone and calls in the cavalry.

if either one of us have to shoot, it's because we have to shoot. we didn't go looking for it.

that being said, i think the "easier to handle one handed as you're flipping switches and opening doors" is bit over the top and unrealistic. okay, irresponsible too. but that's just my opinion.

an added thought, even though you don't have kids, slipknot, is your wife comfortable with firearms, especially in a self-defense situation? i ask because this also bears on the "clearing the house yourself" debate. if she's not, and you "get whacked" (as the fiance says ) or otherwise injured, what will she do? either way, it's your responsibility and obligation to protect your family, not to go galavanting off throughout the house playing superman. hell, even if she is comfortable, it's still your duty to stay alive.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 10:09:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10112002:


that being said, i think the "easier to handle one handed as you're flipping switches and opening doors" is bit over the top and unrealistic. okay, irresponsible too. but that's just my opinion.




It's a little over the top until you actually have needed to do it. My household has people living at different ends of the house, and on different floors. In the event of a break-in I want to make sure that everyone is ok, get them to a "safe room" and make sure I'm not calling the police because a cat knocked over a dish in the kitchen. All of those things require movement, manipulation of switches, latches, and doorknobs. I'm not going to "clear the house" so to speak, I'm going to investigate.

Home Defense 101:

1. Keep a loaded weapon, flashlight, and working cell phone (land lines can get cut, not likely but possible) within reach at all times.

2. First priority in any emergency is the safety of all household members.

3. Sounds heard at night can be a burglar, or it could just be a falling tree, mischeivious cat, or gravity stricken object.

4. Make damn sure that you aren't calling the police out for the cat, gravity, or tree. (Cops HATE being called out for that kind of crap; an internship, and many, many ride-alongs, as well as a dispatcher job taught me that).

5. Shoot only if you are in MORTAL danger. Shoot to kill, and keep shooting until intruder is no longer a threat (i.e., fleeing, dead [which is preferrable], or incapacitated).
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 10:29:20 PM EDT
I agree... you can't call the cops EVERY TIME you think there might be an intruder in your home. Clearing your house at night is extremely risky (for once, I'm with Ayoob on this), and an unwealdy long gun is just going to make matters worse. Stick with a handgun with HP or frangible ammo.

I suggest, instead, that you sell one of the rifles and invest the procedes in some closed-circuit TV cameras and powerful flood lights with radio remote control. I got these to cover key areas of my 3300 sq ft home for less than $400, and now I can initially investigate the "bump in the night" from the relative safety of my bedroom... at least, I can light up the night and scare the beJesus out of anyone lurking in the dark. Plus, if I need to search the house, my wife can watch the blind corners etc. for me via the CC-TV.

Just my $0.02.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 7:06:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:

Originally Posted By 10112002:


that being said, i think the "easier to handle one handed as you're flipping switches and opening doors" is bit over the top and unrealistic. okay, irresponsible too. but that's just my opinion.




It's a little over the top until you actually have needed to do it. My household has people living at different ends of the house, and on different floors. In the event of a break-in I want to make sure that everyone is ok, get them to a "safe room" and make sure I'm not calling the police because a cat knocked over a dish in the kitchen. All of those things require movement, manipulation of switches, latches, and doorknobs. I'm not going to "clear the house" so to speak, I'm going to investigate.

Home Defense 101:

1. Keep a loaded weapon, flashlight, and working cell phone (land lines can get cut, not likely but possible) within reach at all times.

2. First priority in any emergency is the safety of all household members.

3. Sounds heard at night can be a burglar, or it could just be a falling tree, mischeivious cat, or gravity stricken object.

4. Make damn sure that you aren't calling the police out for the cat, gravity, or tree. (Cops HATE being called out for that kind of crap; an internship, and many, many ride-alongs, as well as a dispatcher job taught me that).

5. Shoot only if you are in MORTAL danger. Shoot to kill, and keep shooting until intruder is no longer a threat (i.e., fleeing, dead [which is preferrable], or incapacitated).





i never said call the cops everytime. my point was that if it was a situation in which you were concerned about the presence of an intruder, you're better off calling the cops than you are placing yourself and/or your family at risk by clearing the house yourself.

also, what you have to do to get your family safe is one thing. but continuing to dick around because you are armed is another. we both know this. i wasn't saying that one should never have to flip switches, etc. just do so only when absolutely necessary and keep it to a minimum.

as for your #4, i don't think very much of it. while i wouldn't call the cops on just a whim, if i'm not sure, i sure as hell ain't gonna put my life in jeopardy just to find out if it's something that warrants calling the cops. hell, i hear them bitch all the time about "civilans" doing such things. and now you're telling me that they don't want me calling them if i think i need them. whatever. it's their damn job!

caveat: i won't call them unless i think i need them. but in the end, if it did turn out to be a cat or a tree or gravity, i won't lose sleep over having pulled them away from their doughnut break!
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:19:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2002 12:56:02 AM EDT by Redmanfms]

Originally Posted By ARLady:



i never said call the cops everytime. my point was that if it was a situation in which you were concerned about the presence of an intruder, you're better off calling the cops than you are placing yourself and/or your family at risk by clearing the house yourself.



You should have read my post before responding. I didn't say antyhing about clearing the house. I said investigation, which doesn't involve room-to-room searching, and making sure everybody is safe.


also, what you have to do to get your family safe is one thing. but continuing to dick around because you are armed is another. we both know this. i wasn't saying that one should never have to flip switches, etc. just do so only when absolutely necessary and keep it to a minimum.


Otay. The point is that in a house you will need to do these things, and that with a two-handed weapon like a rifle, it becomes difficult to do anything. Additionally, maneuverability is sacrificed indoors with a rifle.


as for your #4, i don't think very much of it. while i wouldn't call the cops on just a whim, if i'm not sure, i sure as hell ain't gonna put my life in jeopardy just to find out if it's something that warrants calling the cops. hell, i hear them bitch all the time about "civilans" doing such things. and now you're telling me that they don't want me calling them if i think i need them. whatever. it's their damn job!


I kindly suggest that you actually learn something before typing and proving to everybody just how lacking in knowledge you are. It is NOT their job. The police DO NOT have any legal responsibility to show up even if it is an emergency.


caveat: i won't call them unless i think i need them. but in the end, if it did turn out to be a cat or a tree or gravity, i won't lose sleep over having pulled them away from their doughnut break!


The police are law enforcement, not bodyguard services. Don't like that? Tough, that's just the way it is; ask the Supreme Court.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 2:00:17 AM EDT
malcolms choice

Link Posted: 4/29/2002 7:04:18 AM EDT
No question - the AR, with a 14.5 or 16"bbl. Several police agencies have done penetration testing and found that a .223 round will have LESS penetration through drywall than a 9mm handgun round. (The references are home with my Gunsite stuff, but it should be easy to look up on Yahoo or Google).

If you train properly, it's no more difficult to maneuver in a house with a rifle than a handgun. If the bad guy grabs it, pull the trigger! You can assume he doesn't want to check out your Surefire and has evil intent if he attempts to disarm you - light him up! This crap about a rifle or shotgun being easier for the bad guy to grab is stupid. I guarantee if you put a few .223 or 12 ga rounds into his forearm, he will let go!

To quote Clint Smith (who, by the way, uses a rifle for home defense) "a handgun is used to fight your way back to a rifle you should have never put down in the first place!"

Remember, 85% of people shot with a handgun survive. In other words, 85% of the time the bad guy will be in court, all dressed up in a suit, with his wounds bandaged, limping, and telling the jury what a tough childhood he had and how it wasn't fair that you had a better TV.

My vote:
#1 - AR15
#2 - Rem 870 in 12ga
#3 - .45cal model 1911
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