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Posted: 4/19/2002 5:47:41 PM EDT
I'm just curious which of my guns would be best suited for home defense (which one would you grab if somebody was breaking in )

Glock 19, remington 12ga pump, and bushmaster ar15.

I don't have any buckshot for my 12ga, what would like 7 size shot 3 1/4 dram do to a person?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:51:54 PM EDT
12g pump. Every single person in America knows the sound of a pump shotgun.

Plus it is very easy to use in tense situations and requires no aiming. It also has the advantage of little over penitration thru sheetrock walls......even at relatively close distances.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:53:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snikt:
I don't have any buckshot for my 12ga, what would like 7 size shot 3 1/4 dram do to a person?



Ruin the guy's day.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:57:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 6:45:27 PM EDT by quietshoez]
7 1/2 birdshot lowbrass is the optimal home def load in my opinion.
LESSER degree of penetration than others, lethal at indoor ranges, (typically less than 20')
easier to justify in court than deadly evil man-killer bullets (your honor, i'm a BIRD hunter, i had no idea that something like this would happen, it's BIRD shot, i keep it for hunting little flying creatures..)
hehehehe.
failing that, i would use the glock 19 with a glock 17 mag or a +2 baseplate (18 rounds) with the streamlight tactical light mounted on the front rail.
keep in mind that more training is required for the effective use and retention of longguns in defensive situations than are handguns.
practice, practice, practice.
(edited to dispel 2 myths;
#1 you don't have to aim a shotgun. Bullshit, even with a "spreader" type choke, at distances of less than 30 ft (indoor defensive use), a shotgun will pattern no more than 10" at best, at up close and persoanl (room distances, patterns will be more like 3" YOU STILL HAVE TO AIM.

#2 shot guns will not penetrate walls. again, bullshit. in my independant testing at 20', 7 1/2 low brass birdshot will penetrate two layers of indoor drywall.
00 buck will penetrate 4 layers., keep that mind that most interior walls are only 2 layers thick
disclaimer, this was my own unscientific testing at 20' on standard interior unpainted drywall at 0 degrees of deflection, everything has variants and exceptions.
test weapon was a remington 870 police magnum with cylinder bore
shells were remington 3dr 71/2" low brass game loads.
(next week i do 9mm and .223 as well as .38 and .357(HP and FMJ of both) on several layers of painted drywall(more realism at differing anlges of deflection, as well as redoing the 12 ga results.)
my .0000000000000002
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:05:50 PM EDT
Shotgun. As stated above, very effective, yet safe.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:28:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snikt:
I don't have any buckshot for my 12ga, what would like 7 size shot 3 1/4 dram do to a person?


To someone without any protection except for normal clothing, at room-range it will carve a large, nasty rat-hole in them... heavy tissue damage and blood loss. It may not penetrate deeply, but it will get the job done.

And quiet is right: shot will still go through walls. However, going through the walls does absorb some energy. You still run a risk of putting some pellets in a person on the other side of the wall, but it won't be as bad as a 9mm or .223 bullet could be.

There is NO firearm that allows you to ignore the area behind your target.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 9:26:33 PM EDT
I'd take the pump and dump the birdshot and replace it with 00 or better 000 buck. If you're an apartment dweller try #4 buck.

I'd rather survive the gun fight to face the trial then die and face a closed casket. Living in a house the odds of penetrating the stuco walls of my house, the neighbors house, and hitting someone are REALLY small.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:53:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
12g pump. Every single person in America knows the sound of a pump shotgun.

Plus it is very easy to use in tense situations and requires no aiming. It also has the advantage of little over penitration thru sheetrock walls......even at relatively close distances.

Sgtar15



A. You should pattern your SG - it most definately requires aiming. At hall way distances with standard SG the pattern may expand to 5" with 00 buck.


B. You really ought to shoot at a wall at the distances typically found in a house. OO buck will go through an interior wall like butter at a fairly close range - 10 yrds.



Clearing a house is easier with a HG.


Clearing a house - even your own, is VERY foolish.


Hunker down in the corner with a phone SG trained on the door, let the pros handle it.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:46:12 AM EDT
SHOTGUN!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:51:53 AM EDT
911, then shotgun
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:25:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 12:28:05 PM EDT
I recently took a carbine course run by a cop/Gunsite instructor. What he taught me was direct opposite of what I believed was true.
Lets say I'm a SWAT officer, storming an apartment building for warrant arrest. I have 2 weapons to choose from 9mm MP5 subgun or .223 M4. According to him, .223 is better choice if I don't want to accidentally kill the innocent neighbor through the walls. He said that the moment .223 hits the wall, bullet lose its force and begins to tumble thereby not penetrating through the walls. I guess the best weapon depends on size of your house. If you live in a studio apartment, you are probably better off with a handgun. Because bad guy will be on top of you very quickly in a studio apartment. If you live in a multi million dollar house with 10 bedrooms, you might be better off with AR15 because you might have to shoot further and you might need larger magazine capacity to clear all rooms. If you own an average size house, you should probably go with the shotgun as primary and handgun as secondary. You'll probably need to determine the likely point of entry for burglars. Then determine how much time you have to react and how much distance you have between yourself and the intruder. I'm sure there are lots people who buy guns for home defense and never actually shoot them. I think thats false sense of security. If they do have to use the gun in an emergency situation, they won't be able to shoot accurately or they'll be startled from the recoil and the noise. Who knows, they might find that safety was on and gun doesn't fire at the time of need. Familiarize yourself with the weapon. Make sure you can operate it in full darkness. You might not have time to put on your contact lenses or eye glasses so practice without them also. Go to the range and practice shooting from various positions, like shooting from cover, prone, on your knees, etc. Make sure gun functions reliably and that you can handle the recoil. If not change the ammo with less recoil tactical loads. Replace magazine spring frequently if you do keep your gun fully loaded at all times. Learn mulfunction technique as well as weapon retention technique. Learn how to switch from shotgun to handgun, handgun to shotgun. Put a sling on your shotgun and sling it from your body while you clear the house. It won't be as easy to take the gun from you if its wrapped around your body. Remember, if you have kids, keep the guns out of children's reach.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 1:41:35 PM EDT
My recommendation would be an 12 ga Ithaca 37 or 87 fitted with an 18 or 20" barrel, using #2 shot or #4 Buck. I prefer the Ithaca since it will "slam fire" if you hold the trigger and work the slide. My 87 DS Police Special with 8-shot mag replaced my retired M97 Winchester 12 ga "US" Stockade gun, which also would fire if the trigger was held back as the slide worked. Some modern shotgun models have a disconnector that prevent that. I prefer a standard stock to a pistol grip. It is harder to fire a pistol gripped shotgun than most people think. You better hang on, and control of aim is tough.

For outside on farm or in a more rural area, an AR (of course) or an (dare I say it?) AK would do nicely.

BRS
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:36:12 AM EDT
A similar post just ran on the .223 vs shotgun for CQB. LBCHAR15 had some good points. The environment has a lot to do with tool of choice. What you could grab half asleep, hung-over or nursing a cold/flu/illness and still use with correct reaction goes a long way. One of my first instructors also said that by the time most people realize that someone is in their apartment or home, they are in the same room.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:41:50 AM EDT
Mah scattergun
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:46:15 AM EDT
Handgun
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:51:47 AM EDT
The point is well-made that the correct selection depends both upon your environment, and your comfort/ability as a shooter. I have a visual disability, so I prefer my tactical 12 ga for home defense because it requires less-precise aiming, has a BRIGHT light attached, and is easy to operate and very reliable. However, I train to point-and-shoot with my AR, handguns, and shotguns, so really my answer to the original question would be "whichever I can get my hands on FIRST!"
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 2:15:25 PM EDT
What about some nice .38 Special, hand loaded to about 800 fps with 148gr inverted hollow base wad cutter. About the biggest HP you will ever see.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 2:33:58 PM EDT
In my house, the shotgun is the closest thing available in case something happens. And i dont have to worry about any misjams or reliabilities. A simple shotgun works best for me.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 2:39:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:25:15 PM EDT
There was a AD at one of the skeet ranges I shoot at. Max loads there are 7.5 shot / 3 drams. It blew about a 2" dia hole in the plywood window. The range was maybe 3-4 yards, a typical indoors distance.....
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 4:43:35 PM EDT
seems that the general consensus is shotgun.

Personally I think 10 shells oughta treat you right. I for one have a Mossberg 590 with 8 rounds of 00 buck on deck. In the speed-feed stock I have two flechette on the left and #1 on the right. Why? Hell I don't know, but I'm versatile.

Chances are the 911 call and the "Shuck Shuck" of the pump would win your security anyway. Might also want to think about mounting a flashlight too.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 6:53:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 6:54:43 PM EDT by JFP]
Remmington 870/folding stock/mag extension/6 round side saddle/heat shield/maglight mounted on the side of the barell. #7 first two rounds than 00 buckshot for two more rounds than more #7. back-up is Romanian AK with three hundred rounds loaded and ready. Next in line is Pepper spray a baseball bat and last ditch effort is 5 "D" cell Mag light (that should really hurt). Depending on the situation as to what defense is used first....
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:36:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snikt:
I'm just curious which of my guns would be best suited for home defense (which one would you grab if somebody was breaking in )

Glock 19, remington 12ga pump, and bushmaster ar15.

I don't have any buckshot for my 12ga, what would like 7 size shot 3 1/4 dram do to a person?



I might want to use a handgun because I live in a one bedroom apartment and I wouldnt have time to reach for a shotgun... with handgun I can keep it on me at all times...
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:10:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:51:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:
Remmington 870/folding stock/mag extension/6 round side saddle/heat shield/maglight mounted on the side of the barell. #7 first two rounds than 00 buckshot for two more rounds than more #7. back-up is Romanian AK with three hundred rounds loaded and ready. Next in line is Pepper spray a baseball bat and last ditch effort is 5 "D" cell Mag light (that should really hurt). Depending on the situation as to what defense is used first....


nice fucking force continuum.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 9:34:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 9:39:05 PM EDT by Francisco_dAnconia]
A quick comparison shows that an M4gery is:

  • more compact than a shotgun - easier to maneuver

  • lighter - faster to maneuver

  • lower recoil - easier for wife and kids to use, faster follow up shots

  • higher capacity - probably unnecessary, but I like it

  • much more ergonomic - self-explanatory

  • simpler manual of arms - my opinion

  • will defeat soft body armor - again, probably unnecessary, but I like it

  • doesn't penetrate building materials any worse than buckshot or pistol bullets - probably better than the others

  • longer range without doing a "select slug" drill - again, probably unnecessary, but I like it

  • and... I shoot my AR a lot, so the muscle memory is already geared for the AR

Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:04:38 AM EDT
"force continuum" you sound like a police officer, am I correct?
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 5:14:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIX:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
12g pump. Every single person in America knows the sound of a pump shotgun.

Plus it is very easy to use in tense situations and requires no aiming. It also has the advantage of little over penitration thru sheetrock walls......even at relatively close distances.

Sgtar15



A. You should pattern your SG - it most definately requires aiming. At hall way distances with standard SG the pattern may expand to 5" with 00 buck.


B. You really ought to shoot at a wall at the distances typically found in a house. OO buck will go through an interior wall like butter at a fairly close range - 10 yrds.



Clearing a house is easier with a HG.


Clearing a house - even your own, is VERY foolish.


Hunker down in the corner with a phone SG trained on the door, let the pros handle it.



Six gives the best advice of all in the last line. Don't go searching for anyone, let them come to you in the best defensive position. You only need wathc the door if they are in the house. Also, when you call the sheriff, leave the line open and the phone on the floor face up. They will hear what is going on and there will be a taped record. Anyone breaking into your house and coming into your bedroom has no leg to stand on. At least in FL.

AS far as weapons, I'd take the pistol. My house is concrete block and stucco. A .45 will stay inside. Shotguns are unwieldy and yes, you have to aim. Actually, I'd rather handle my .223 carbine than a shotgun (thinking of selling it, frankly). BTW, FWIW, .223 will shatter very nicely on a good wall at close distance, if you use no more than M193.

Hope this never gets beyond the academic.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 8:25:28 AM EDT
While we're on the subject, heres a website you'll find interesting:
www.internetarmory.com/rifle_ammo.htm

Its a survey of the effects of different rifle/carbine rounds for self defense. I raised my eyebrow when he said the JHP .308 was a great self defense round, yet didn't mention the dangers of overpenetration with it. I guess it was a given.

From the info given, I think I'll stick with the Federal 50gr JHP (American Eagle) I normally use for target shooting with my AR15a2. JHP and low mass for great stopping power and minimum wall penetration. I know a 20"a2 barrel isn't ideal for home defense, but I only have that and an M1 Carbine to work with for now. Damn, I need more money!
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 8:51:10 AM EDT
My wife and I live alone in our house. By my bedside are: G19, Streamlight Stinger, Cell Phone. By my wife's bedside are : 3" Ruger sp101 .357 with 125gr .38 Cor Bon +P+, Streamlight Scorpion, Regular phone. In case of forced entry we grab said items and go to Bedroom walk-in closet where Win. 1300 with 7 rounds Federal Tactical is waiting. Back wall of closet(other side of wall is garage) has antique 6'tall by 5' wide bookshelf packed with large books. My very substantial gun safe contains all of the other toys in another room. If the SHTF, very clear description of the entire situation is 911'd by both the regular phone (left off the hook) and cell phone. M4 is nice, but shotgun is peerless (no pun...) and more politically correct. We be stayn' in the closet 'wit our dogs...
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:16:42 AM EDT
If someone is breaking in I need to get the wife and kids into the master bed room. Lets assume this is at night and both kids are still sleeping. I would take my handgun and wake up the kids and lead them to the master bedroom while the wife is already there calling 911. Once in the bedroom I lock the door, holster my handgun, and switch to shotgun.

Now the police should be on the way. If the burglars are able to get in the house they are going for my stereo and I wait. If not, they are gonna try to kick in the master bedroom door. All hell breaks loose at that point!

Pistol is small and ideal for house clearing. Shotgun is more powerfull but is too long for running around the house. Use shotgun when your in the safe room.

Shok
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:43:25 AM EDT
For the man above that has a plan to get in the closet... I would reconsider the idea to get into a closet as your visability and ability to hit out are compromised. Further I want room to make some retreat and a solid wall does not give you that option.
Given the defense options I would go with the M4 as primary and the glock as backup. The ar should be easy to aim if needed and the glock works well if you need to hold someone at gunpoint and dial a phone. The ar would be my first choice and the 30 round magazine is a great resource, but doubtful it will ever be needed. Keeping the glock close to your bed will be a good idea in case you have to get into defense mode quickly. If there are kids around be sure to keep weapons safely away from them at all times.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:50:25 AM EDT
I just signed on to AR15.com today, but have been lurking for several months. This is a great source of info and I have already made several purchases based on what I have discovered.

At home it is just me and my wife (though we have a baby on the way). I always kept a pistol in a holster next to my side of the bed. Up until a few months ago, it was a Sig P229 in .40. I sold that when I got a Kimber .45. I love it, but my wife has difficulty shooting it. I would feel a lot more comfortable having something that she could also handle if the need arose. This rules out a shotgun, based on the recoil.

We've discussed this and she actually said that she wants an AR carbine. What do you think?
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 10:04:56 AM EDT
Some of the advantages of the AR over the shotgun don't matter IMO.

Firstly, while a shotgun will not defeat body armor, it will put people down. People often die from "blunt force trauma" from taking a shotgun blast to body armor. Secondly, the range advantage is not important. Who owns a house with distances bigger than the range of shot? Not me. Also it will be hard to justify a shooting a long ranges. If someone is that far away you have time to get the AR.

While the handgun is the least powerful, I think it is the easiest to use inside. It is much harder to disarm someone in a struggle who has handgun than a long gun. My first choice for indoor defense would be a 357 magnum. It can be shot from your side in a struggle and there is no slide to grab and render it unfireable .
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:02:16 PM EDT
Grab the scattergun...but do not use OOB in the house. Use a heavy bird shot but use bird shot none the less. Most important other than the load is get yourself a good light on the gun. Go to Botachtactical.com or UWS.com (if they still sell them) and get a surefire forearm light grip. the gun will be useless as a cup of piss if you can't see what your shooting at.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:07:50 PM EDT
reason you might want to consider the pump gun over the pistol because is because it's alot harder to shoot yourself when your groogy and tired with a long gun than a hand gun. Believe me there are alot of recorded accidents where people wake up in a hurry, think they hear something and go for the gun and boom! Always, no matter what someone tells you, keep the gun in a holster! Then effort of taking it out will wake your brain up and keep you from shooting thewrong person (yourself!)
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:29:41 PM EDT
THird post in a row (you'd think I'd get all my thoughts together BEFORE I post). I just wanted to say a few words on the penetration issue. I'm not sure if it is LEO restricted video (I don't think it is) but S&W did a great piece on cover and concealment and different types of rounds. Anyone who thinks .223 won't go through a wall is right....it won't go through "A" wall, it will go through several walls. It went in one side of the house (concrete block) through several interior walls (flimsy plaster) and out the other side of the house. So did an AK 7.62 round. I couldn't believe the things that wouldn't stop certain rounds. I also figured a fire hydrate for pretty good cover. Not very big but heavy iron. A rifle round cut right through it. Basically, I can't see anyone being jammed up criminally for defending yourself in a home invasion. But civil liability is another matter. Oh, body armor and shotguns...I don't know who said it but, you better believe a shotgun will pentrate soft body armor. I don't even think a Level IV vest would stop a slug. Even if it does it's going to put you on your butt.

One last important tidbit. Whether in home or out on the town, if you have to draw down on someone or use your gun, when you call the police so many people forget this part..."I'm a white male, 6 foot, wearing gray t-shirt and blue jeans, armed with a glock handgun" Let the po-po know who the good guy and bad guy is.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:43:17 PM EDT
Using the wrong kind of 223 can result in what you described. Thats why for home defense, its importatnt FMJ is not used. Its made for penetration. Hollow points are the best for home defense, followed by soft points.

Using lower mass bullets (50gr rather than 62gr) can help against overpenetration too, though I can't say how much.

Heres another good link about the advantages of 223 in CQB and urban police work:
thecurmudgeon.freeservers.com/fa-index.html

Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:27:50 PM EDT
I keep a Defender 1300 with 2 3/4 00 buck next to the bed, and a .45 under the pillow only for comfort.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:42:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BRS:
I prefer the Ithaca since it will "slam fire" if you hold the trigger and work the slide.



That sounds real safe
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:47:49 PM EDT
I'll take a 870 anyday, I don't especially like the 500 series Mossburg. I have had several of them lockup, jam, or just not work over the years. The 870 takes a hell of alot of abuse from me and keeps on going.

That being said, here's alittle dirt for you pro 500-590 people
members.tripod.com/~jth8260/870.html
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:51:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snikt:
.

I don't have any buckshot for my 12ga, what would like 7 size shot 3 1/4 dram do to a person?



Go out and buy a box, its what? $5 or something


Oh, here is alittle something for you 870-lovers
www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0801ftr.html
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 3:29:16 PM EDT
@ 145+ dB, I would think 2ce about discharging a 5.56 inside.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:38:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2002 4:39:05 PM EDT by Happyshooter]
It could be that she is scared of the recoil of the shotgun. The AR recoil is a LOT less and it feel different, too.
Get what she can and will use. It is much better to have something she can shoot and shoot well, she hit hit what she is aiming at. If you force her into the shotgun she may miss or fumble due to fear of it.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:11:00 PM EDT
Mossberg 590 with speed feed stock and side saddle with oo buck.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:51:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 8:55:18 AM EDT by darm441]
>>People often die from "blunt force trauma" from taking a shotgun blast to body armor.<<
That is just flat wrong. NOBODY has ever died as the result of a blunt force trauma injury caused by taking a shotgun blast to their body armor. According to Second Chance, nobody has ever died from blunt force trauma in any body armor incident.
As for using birdshot to defend yourself, why would anyone want to use something that frequently doesn't stop a small bird covered with feathers? Use one of the buckshots and be done with it.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 9:07:03 AM EDT
I would say shotgun. Really depends on your situation. Do you have room to move around with a full length shotgun in your house? Also giving consideration to over penetration obviously.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 12:17:32 PM EDT
.........As for using birdshot to defend yourself, why would anyone want to use something that frequently doesn't stop a small bird covered with feathers? Use one of the buckshots and be done with it.............


Lost a friend to an incident where he was responding to a domestic. The guy shot him from his porch as he was approaching from about 15 yards away. Don't tell me birdshot won't kill someone. Especially at close ranges like in your house. I wouldn't want to get hit at 5-10 feet with birdshot. Trust me it will work.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 2:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BRS:
My recommendation would be an 12 ga Ithaca 37 or 87 fitted with an 18 or 20" barrel, using #2 shot or #4 Buck. I prefer the Ithaca since it will "slam fire" if you hold the trigger and work the slide. My 87 DS Police Special with 8-shot mag replaced my retired M97 Winchester 12 ga "US" Stockade gun, which also would fire if the trigger was held back as the slide worked. Some modern shotgun models have a disconnector that prevent that. I prefer a standard stock to a pistol grip. It is harder to fire a pistol gripped shotgun than most people think. You better hang on, and control of aim is tough.
BRS



Of what possible use is a shotgun that "slam fires?" Even at conversational distances you can't possibly hit anything like that. The first shot might hit, and the rest will be in the roof! If you don't get him with the first shot, you will be left stroking an empty weapon right up until the bad guy takes it from you and beats you to death with it. You talk about a pistol grip weapon being though to aim, but if you are "slam-firing" then you aren't aiming anyway.

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea desperately needs to take a tactical course or two to learn how to handle weapons in the real world and not in Hollywood. Put the overabused testosterone in a jar for a while and go learn something before you get yourself or someone else killed.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 2:54:16 PM EDT
GLOCKS 21,22,23 Remingtion 870 12ga BushMaster AR15 FN/FAL
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