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Posted: 4/19/2002 5:28:32 PM EDT
I'm guessing you guys probably get these posts quite often, but I have several questions.

After reading over this board, talking to some people, and searching the net, I have narrowed it down to either a 16" or 20" Bushmaster ar.

At first I was tempted to get a Ruger Mini-14 Stainless for $400, but I think I will be happier spending a couple extra hundred for an ar.

I still have no clue what my other needs are though. I will mostly use the gun for target shooting, and don't know whjich of the following options I should get...

Fluted or not?

Removeable carry handle for extra $50?

A3 or A2 carry handle (is A3 a different sight too?)

16" or 20" (I guess this depends on my needs, but I do like the 16" look better. But I'm curious if it is significantly less accurate/noisier/more recoil than the 20")

Do I get a muzzle break factory installed? If so, what kind?

I'm also curious as to the news on the Assault Weapon Ban. Do you guys think its likely to sunset? I'm wondering if I'll be able to easily install a flash suppressor on a post-ban rifle...

What should I be expecting to pay? I was thinking with optional accessories (like maybe removeable carry handle and fluting) it would come out to less than $800 not including tax.

I guess that covers my questions. Thanks a lot for all your help.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:34:50 PM EDT
It is written into the legislation that the ban will sunset Sept 13 2004, but what is not known is if furthrer legislation will go into effect to renew or make permanent the ban. Chances are if we remain vigilant and on the offensive and maintain the amount of victories we are winning now the future is looking good for the sunset of the ban. But they WILL try to pass another and probably more restrictive bill, it is up to us to stop that from happening. Removable Carry Handle is a plus because with a flatop there are better mounting options because the scope wouldnt sit as high on the rifle.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:43:15 PM EDT
I was talking to a friend who's pretty knowledgeable in firearms, and he was thinking that another, slightly less restrictive ban will be imposed.

He mentioned that pro gun-control isn't a 'winnable' platform like it was mabye 10 years ago. I guess too many democrats were losing a chance at office because of their views on gun control. Does that sound right to you?

Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:49:34 PM EDT
First of all, good choice on the AR over the Ruger.


If the rifle is *mostly* going to be a target rifle, then get an A3. Much more versatile in that regard.

I, personally, don't like fluted.

The carry handle will most likely be pointless.

The 20" will be more accurate at longer ranges.

The A3 DOES NOT have any sort of built in sight. You'll have to either use a scope, or spend the extra money on a set of flip up sights (or the carry handle, which includes iron sights).

I can't stand muzzle brakes. On an AR, I can't tell they make much difference, and they REALLY annoy target shooters around you with their blast and noise.

As for the price...
$750 might get you the basic rifle, but it'll be closer to $800 I bet. A good set of flip up sights will cost about $100 (won't be needed with the carry handle).

Here's an image of my 16" A3 with an ARMS #38 (that's the rail, which includes the ARMS #40 rear sight).




Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:01:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 6:06:38 PM EDT by Ralph]
I myself like the 16" bbl I would'nt get a brake of any kind, they are really loud, and with such little recoil, I don't see a real need for it, Removable carry handle? I don't know, will make it much easier to mount scope if you want, Fluting looks cool, not sure if it really works like they say....AWB sunset? Don't know....If it does, I'm sure you could get a F.S. installed, Cost, prices seem to have rose(in my area,anyway) after 9/11, (I bought my 16" bushy in 8/01, and it was on sale for $699.00 same place now has them for $829.00, figure at least $800.00, shop around, there are some deals to be had if one takes the time to look around... load up on mags, get good USGI mags, or Thermold 30rnd mags Don't waste your money on USA brand or Western brand aftermarket mags, they are unreliable junk, you'll have few, if any problems with USGI or thermold, and USGI mags are easily rebuilt, bushmaster sells rebuild kits for 20&30 rnd mags.Check Troy's articles on mags somewhere on this board, he's right on the money, I took his advice and haven't had a problem with mags....Have Fun!! you'll love your AR!!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:03:58 PM EDT
Nice weapon Brouhaha
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:06:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MattC:
After reading over this board, talking to some people, and searching the net, I have narrowed it down to either a 16" or 20" Bushmaster ar.



EXCELLENT choice!


At first I was tempted to get a Ruger Mini-14 Stainless for $400, but I think I will be happier spending a couple extra hundred for an ar.


another good choice. have experience with both. the mini is fun, but not near the accuracy of the AR.


I still have no clue what my other needs are though. I will mostly use the gun for target shooting, and don't know which of the following options I should get...

Fluted or not?



depends on whether you're really worried about the weight. assuming the heavy barrel which is standard in bushies... benefits: don't give up the stiffness of the heavy barrel, allows for a little more cooling, and it lightens the weight up. drawbacks: extra monies. you have to decide whether the extra pennies are worth the benefits.


Removeable carry handle for extra $50?

A3 or A2 carry handle (is A3 a different sight too?)



A3 simply designates removable carry handle. the sights on both A2 and A3 models are A2 sights. benefits to A3, flexibility of flat top AND iron sights with a few turns of the knobs. drawbacks: not legal for service rifle competitions, and of course, it costs extra.


16" or 20" (I guess this depends on my needs, but I do like the 16" look better. But I'm curious if it is significantly less accurate/noisier/more recoil than the 20")


there is no inherent accuracy differences in the barrel length itself. the differences in accuracy are related to the sight radius: shorter on the 16" (excepting dissipator model) which affects sighting in on the target. the only major difference in the barrel lengths is your effective range (and you would have to decide what you consider effective. does the bullet just need toget there and to hell with the velocity or do you require enough velocity for maximum stopping power?) there are some really good threads in this forum that address this issue far more in depth.

16" isn't legal for service rifle comps.


Do I get a muzzle break factory installed? If so, what kind?


since you're limiting your choices to the 16" or 20" bbl, you have the option.

personally, i thing muzzel brakes on semi-auto rifles are a complete waste of money. their original intent was to stabilize barrel climb for full-auto weapons. this really isn't an issue with the semi-auto versions. not to mention that the suckers are louder than loud and will annoy the crap out of the people next to you at the range. i HATE them.


I'm also curious as to the news on the Assault Weapon Ban. Do you guys think its likely to sunset? I'm wondering if I'll be able to easily install a flash suppressor on a post-ban rifle...


hard to say. though if i were a betting gal, i'd say no to the sunset.


What should I be expecting to pay? I was thinking with optional accessories (like maybe removeable carry handle and fluting) it would come out to less than $800 not including tax.


that's about average. i've seen 'em for more, and i've seen 'em for less. depends on who ya buy from and what you get on 'em.

oh, yeah, i forgot. welcome!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:40:07 PM EDT
Flat-top gives you many more options and you can even still have the carry handle if you want it. I think there's another topic that discusses the ups/downs in great detail.

I prefer a 16" but only because the balance is closer to the pistol grip. If you fire exclusively under 100 yards I doubt you'll notice a substantial difference between a 16" and a 20". If you plan on using a bipod, might as well go 20".

The contempt towards muzzle breaks amazes me. Guns are loud; use hearing protection and it's all the same. That said, if you are firing indoors or up against a wall it can be a problem. I was shooting next to a guy last time out who was leaving empty ammo boxes out and they weren't getting blown around. So much for blast. And his buddy on the other side of me was firing some sort of uncomp'd elephant gun that made mine seem quiet.

Reading here before getting my gun I was certain that everyone at the range would hate me and that I'd be blasting sandbags off of benches. Turns out the spent cases getting thrown back into the "spectator area" a few lanes over causes far more dirty stares.

And practically speaking, the mini-y on mine makes a 223 feel just a tad more kicky than a 22LR. Which means I shoot more and my shoulder isn't beat up after a few hundred rounds. When I go back to a uncomp'd 223 I definitely notice the difference.

I'd never say it's a must, but if you haven't tried a muzzle break don't write it off.

Best of luck!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:48:21 PM EDT
MattC:

First, Welcome to the Boards!!

Define "Target shooting" Formal highpower comp, Service rifle comp, benchrest, 1000 yard stuff, tactical comp or just punching paper? Your answer will better help the collective group steer you in the right direction.

SRM
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:02:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By takque:

The contempt towards muzzle breaks amazes me. Guns are loud; use hearing protection and it's all the same.



respectfully....bullshit. the noise from a brakeless AR is totally different from the blast and bang from a "braked" AR. in the former case, all of the energy is pushed right out the barrel FORWARD (aka AWAY from) of the participants. in the latter case, a LOT of the energy is deflected SIDEWAYS directly at the participants who sit next to the "braked" AR. there's a helluva difference. i've sat next to hunting rifles that have a lot of boom, but they are nearly as "violent" as the percussion and sound from the "braked" AR.




And practically speaking, the mini-y on mine makes a 223 feel just a tad more kicky than a 22LR. Which means I shoot more and my shoulder isn't beat up after a few hundred rounds. When I go back to a uncomp'd 223 I definitely notice the difference.


your shoulder gets "beat up" after a few hundred rounds of .223?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:20:28 PM EDT
Target shooting for me is mainly shooting paper.

I might enter competitions down the line, but I would probably buy a new rifle for that.

This rifle will mainly be for 'plinking'. Mainly at ranges anywhere from 15 yards out to 100 or possibly 2-300. But more than 75% of the shooting will be 100 yards or less...

So what I gather, is that if I use a scope, there won't be any significant difference under about 400 yards between a 20" and a 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:39:42 PM EDT
Considering most people never end up with only one upper, start with the one that will be able to do the most, that way when you catch "the bug" you'll already have a good upper.

My personnal opinion would be to go for a 20" SS fluted with a floated handguard. It'll be a target rifle, but isn't that what most of us use them for anyway?! Find a company that makes a weaver mount gas block that way you can mount a front sight and a carry handle. Oh yeah, its a good idea to figure out now if you want it scoped or if you want to learn and stick with the irons? My two AR's are range rifles with one having a 24" and the other a 16" barrel for hiking or plinking. My 16" is a SS fluted DPMS, which has been absolutely a joy since I bought it from a member here. Accuracy is under 1" with ball ammo, ya just can't beat that!

Lastly, make sure the gun is adaptable to all the kinds of shooting you envision. (Which means get a flat top!)

Oh yeah, about the AWB....it will most likely sunset, especially due to the fact that the dems lost tons of seats after the 94 ban went into effect. HOWEVER, you'll find that some of the gestapo states have created mirror bans, which will not sunset. Lovely fucking politics, ain't it?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:18:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10112002:
in the former case, all of the energy is pushed right out the barrel FORWARD (aka AWAY from) of the participants. in the latter case, a LOT of the energy is deflected SIDEWAYS directly at the participants who sit next to the "braked" AR



Opinion isn't true or false. Physics is a whole different story. Following the argument that the 223 has no recoil, if so much energy is diverted... where it is coming from? A muzzle break creates no new energy and every bit of energy it gets to throw out the sides and top would have pushed directly back (ie, to recoil). So if there's no recoil from a 223, there can't be any blast. Can't have it both ways.

But this is about someone trying to find what AR-15 to buy. Unfortuantely it's a tough to test out a break before buying and my fears based off of this board were unfounded. Anyone who doesn't like them because they are different or louder is entitled to that opinion as well. But it is opinion.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:01:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 5:04:18 AM EDT by ttman]
lols, that is funny!!! I used to have a 30-06, now THAT can produce a beating. but a .223 is NOTHING, which is what makes it so fun.


Originally Posted By 10112002:
your shoulder gets "beat up" after a few hundred rounds of .223?

Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:43:15 AM EDT
optics smoptics..the sights on the a2 are just fine..muzzle brakes suck..too stupid LOUD..i love my 20" bushy, but the heavy barrel feels wierd...a 16" set up or m4 feels NICE. if i could i would ditch my 20" upper for a dissipator- short barrel, long sights...oh yeah save your money on the optics and buy ammo.. and then learn how to shoot...keep it simple..besides i like the look on the scope boys faces when i outshoot them with iron sights..i think, therefore i is.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 9:15:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 1:39:16 PM EDT by MattC]
Thanks for all the great responses.

I think maybe I will try to find a 20" bushmaster with a removeable carry handle and A2 sights.

Initially I was heavily leaning toward the 16", but I think the 20" fits my needs more and not just my deserve to have a gun that looks cool.

I saw in Bushmaster's catalog uppers that cost about $600. How much cheaper can they be had for?

I'm thinking I might get a scope, but primarily I will be using iron sights.

I recently read the article on this site A Prospective AR-15 Owner/Builder's Pimer and the author strongly advocates building your own rifle from a kit.


ii. Step 2: The Kit (less Lower Receiver). Call Model "1" Sales, Inc. at 1-847-639-3192. Ask for "Bill" or "Cindy". Order the following:


If you want a FULL-SIZED 20" rifle: POST-BAN, E2 20" KIT ...... $390.00

If you want a CARBINE-SIZED 16" rifle: POST-BAN, CAR 16" KIT .... $380.00



How can that be so cheap, and what parts do they use? I was looking at Bushmaster's site, and its $535 alone for just the upper assembly...
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:11:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By takque:
The contempt towards muzzle breaks amazes me. Guns are loud; use hearing protection and it's all the same.


My only issue with a muzzle brake is that it irritates the folks to either side by blasting gas and noise in their direction.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:50:46 PM EDT
C'mon guys give us "brake people" a little brake. Most of us are former military and when we reach for our favorite sport utlity rifle we expect a "brake" on it. I prefer gunsmoke-inc.com's 3 port compensator. Shoots the gas straight up and if it anoys anybody to the left or right of you at the range, tell them to invest in proper ear protection.

Nice SUR brouhaha

I_run_with_scissors
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