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Posted: 4/18/2002 5:33:55 PM EDT
I'm not a big shotgunner. I have a Benelli, reasonably tricked, and I have it next to the bed for SHTF in the house. I love AR carbines, too, needless to say.

Any thoughts on this? The shotgun is definitely falling from favor for LE applications...but for repelling boarders in bayonet range, it's hard to argue with a load of buckshot.

Funny thing happened a couple weeks ago that sort of reminded me how my subconscious feels about facing danger with a shotgun. I was hanging in the local gun shop perusing the gear when five teenagers sauntered in the door. I can't explain why, but the hair on the back of my neck stood up, and I felt like something bad was about to happen. Long story short, I 'borrowed' the loaded, chambered Ithaca 37 from behind the counter (owner is a friend, this is totally kosher) and ambled to the back of the store where I could see everybody. Everything turned out okay... Later I thought, gee, I really like that shotgun...I would have been happy with only my pistol, but the shotgun does add confidence.


QS
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 5:54:23 PM EDT
1) round capacity. Most SMG can carry more rounds than a shotgun can.

2) Accountability. As a LEO you are accountable for every shot you fire. If a bystander gets hit by a scattergun, you are the one facing problems.


Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:13:58 PM EDT
Agree with the Vin-Man,

5.56mm makes for an OUTSTANDING CQB load. Agencies around the country are switching daily as more and more info surfaces.

Besides the reasons that Vinnie used, here's a third:

Ability to INSTANTLY transition from a short range (less than 25m) to a medium range (100+m) shot if situation dictates. With the SAME load.

Match that with the famous Jeff Cooper line of "select slug, then engage the long range target."
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:42:56 PM EDT
Its hard to argue with a couple of slugs from an 870, but I think I'd still take the AR for home defense and SHTF; no recoil w/ the AR v. nasty recoil w/ the 870/slug package; 20, 30 or 30+30 rounds in the AR v. 7, 10, etc. w/ the shotgun; and the ability to engage at CQB or long distance with the AR. Nothing wrong w/ the shotgun, and I'm starting to like mine more and more, but I'll stick w/ the good old Bushy.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:51:26 PM EDT
Having seen first hand what a 12 gauge does at close range I'll stick with the tried and true 870 with 00buck. Gives me that warm everything's gonna be ok feeling
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:25:11 PM EDT
I like them both for CQB, although I generally would reach for my 870, stoked with 9 rounds OOB. I like the comfort factor and the fact that nothing is quite as intimidating as the sound of a pumpgun being racked, not to mention starring into the barrel of one.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:42:04 PM EDT
The carbine has less penetration, with the right loads, has less chance of a pellet missing the target and becoming unaccounted for, has faster follow-up and defeats body armor.

Shotguns are good for special applications, like less-lethal rounds, but that only works if you have a buddy you can trust covering you with a true deadly force option.

Make mine a carbine.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:51:20 PM EDT
This is really a preference question. For CQB I would probably go with the 870, simple reliable, its a shotgun, its a rifle, and its a club. It is a true triple threat weapon, I can group 2" with iron sites and slugs at 75+ yards and if its up close and personal I can smack them with the stock without breaking it off. If ranges were likely to be longer than this I would take the rifle or carbine every time.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:53:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
1) round capacity. Most SMG can carry more rounds than a shotgun can.

2) Accountability. As a LEO you are accountable for every shot you fire. If a bystander gets hit by a scattergun, you are the one facing problems.



A nice combat shotgun will do five to seven shots, if you need more shots then that you either need to call in an air strike or practice more.

Scatterguns don't. At typical CLOSE combat distances 000 buck barely spreads to ten inches. I wouldn't use a carbine in a crowded public area like a school auditorium or a football statium nor a shotgun.

In a quarter century of shooting I have yet to have a pump shotgun jam. I can't say that about any semi-automatic carbine. As a civilian I doubt that I'll ever face platoons of evil do'ers coming over the ridgeline.

I have faced down four thugs with a six shot .357 revolver pretty sucessfully though and would have felt better with a nice pump shotgun.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 8:09:22 PM EDT
I am still worried about overpenetration with a 223 after watching if zip thru plates of steel with no problems so thats why I like the shotgun for indoors, but if I got in a nasty shootout I would have too grab the 223!
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 10:49:25 PM EDT
Not much for shotguns either, but the facts/figures/reliability (for shotguns) is there. .223 is an excellent choice, also, low recoil, hi-capacity in some instances. I have to agree that it is a preference question. It sounds like you're warm and fuzzy with your Benelli, then by all means. Even though I am now leaning toward building/purchasing a tactical riot-gun, my comfort level with my 9MM (although criticized for stopping power)is high. I have had the most training and (regular/consistent) range time with my 9 MM.


Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:03:06 AM EDT
For close-quarters, compared with shotgun and handgun isn't .223 more likely (if I miss) to penetrate a wall?

Or (if I hit) to exit bad guy and hit something else?

That's what I thought, was I wrong?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 2:33:30 AM EDT
Ja, you are wrong. .223 is more likely to expend it's energy in your target, or a wall and be less lethal after penetrating and exiting either. Not my opinion, but result of several studies.

OO buckshot is equivalent of 9 9mm slugs and can penetrate as such, through walls with more lethal potential after exiting.

I attended "Sniper Week" convention this week, and these professional shooters stressed the importance in their line of work, to be sure of the backstop behind the target. They practice a lot (more than us average guys) shooting through different barriers, too. Glass can be a big problem for them, and there new rounds being developed (I heard Winchester mentioned as one) specifically for penetrating barriers. A lot of them are carrying different ammo, or have another team ready with barrier ammunition.

Overpenetration is always a concern, but hitting the target seems to be the priority. Stray rounds must be a bigger concern, as they are obviously more of a danger, than rounds exiting a target. The .223's design helps, and there seems to be quite a bit of research and development in frangible bullet design, as well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 3:32:58 AM EDT
Paul,

If you wouldn't use a carbine (and thankfully, wouldn't use a shotgun) in a crowded setting, what would you use? I wouldn't use a shotgun, and I damn sure wouldn't use a pistol if I could get to a carbine or a full-size rifle.
A pistol? Hey, I'm as good as most, and better than many with my .45 - but there's no way I'd use a pistol when I could get my hands on a rifle.

If you're worried about overpenetration, then you really NEED to consider 5.56mm. With the right loads, you have much less risk of a round passing through a target and hitting an innocent.

Additionally, if I need more than 5 or 7 shots, I plan to have a reload or two with me. I couldn't imagine having to do a tactical reload on a shotgun under fire - I'd switch to my alternate weapon. Seems foolish not to have that option, don't you think?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 4:00:12 AM EDT
You said QCB, from a liability standpoint, it would be hard to explain to a jury, why you shot someone at 50 yards, they shouldn't be a threat to you anymore,, in a defensive mode of course... I would imagine no9 dove type load, wouldn't overpentrate if it missed its target, unless you had the muzzle up against the wall, yet at close range, I'd hate to get with a load of it at 10 feet,, I like no4 buckshot,, its 24 caliber, and usually about 36-40 pellets in a load, so if you only hit with 1/3 of the pattern you have 12-15 hits instead of 3-4 , and at close range it should be just as lethal.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:04:04 PM EDT
The only CQB action I will see will be in home defense. In going over various options of my Rem 870 Marine Magnum and AR-15 16" carbine, both are worthy CQB and interior weapons with good exterior application as well. I am not convinced that either is decidedly better for my home circumstance (with wife, kids, pets). Each really can occupy its own ideal conflict niche.

I have patterned the 870 at distances from 3-30 yards with my defense load and know what to expect in terms of scatter. The AR has really nice 30 round mags, no scatter. For CQB, however, aiming is essential even though it would seem like you could get away with more slop with the shotgun's sighting, but the difference in slop for most home distances is neglible.

My choice to go with the 870 stems from the probable circumstance that the fight will not be prolonged and quite likely involve 1-3 shots on my part (based on what I've read). As best as I can reason things, if I am just going to get off one shot and that shot hits the target, then by golly I want it to by 00Buck and it should have some devastating effects.

If I believed that it was reasonable to expect a prolonged fight, then the AR is the only real choice. Or if I lived in the country where the CQB distance might go out to 20-50 yards, the AR would be the choice I would make.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:29:49 PM EDT
Make mine a carbine too. A good rifle caliber carbine can do anything a shotgun can, but the reverse cannot be said.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:33:39 PM EDT
12 gauge 00 buck....my choice
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:39:11 PM EDT
To help confirm BigGun's post I have also read the ballistics that say that a .223 is less lethal after passing through walls than a .9mm, .45, etc. etc. (00 Buck included). That is what finalized my decision to get an M4 upper for my AR (or just get an M4 version) and use that for home defense instead of my Beretta 92FS. I wanted to do this anyway but was worried about the penetration until I read the data on the .223. I am also seeing more and more pics myself of .223 fragmentation and am greatly convinced.

Mike
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:06:28 PM EDT
I carry an M-4 on duty but still prefer the Benelli for some things. The pure power is hard to dispute. As far as capacity, it depends. With a full auto M-4 you have 8-10, 3-4 round bursts. With the shotgun 8-10, 9-12 round "bursts". It all depends on perspective.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 9:13:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AndyTN:
Paul,

If you wouldn't use a carbine (and thankfully, wouldn't use a shotgun) in a crowded setting, what would you use? I wouldn't use a shotgun, and I damn sure wouldn't use a pistol if I could get to a carbine or a full-size rifle.
A pistol? Hey, I'm as good as most, and better than many with my .45 - but there's no way I'd use a pistol when I could get my hands on a rifle.

If you're worried about overpenetration, then you really NEED to consider 5.56mm. With the right loads, you have much less risk of a round passing through a target and hitting an innocent.

Additionally, if I need more than 5 or 7 shots, I plan to have a reload or two with me. I couldn't imagine having to do a tactical reload on a shotgun under fire - I'd switch to my alternate weapon. Seems foolish not to have that option, don't you think?



As a civilian I don't ever in my wildest dreams see myself in a shoot-out where I'm taking on multiple bad guys in a crowd or my house. I often leave my long weapons at home when I'm out and about too so debating about them outside the house isn't in my plans either.

Within my house I'll use a revolver to fight my way to my gun safe where I'll draw a nice pump shotgun with 000 buck from amoung the rifles. The handgun safe is one of those five button thingies that I can do in the dark. The real safe is a 1200 pound safe that can't rest on the second floor.

The motor skills to run a shotgun (or revolver with Crimson Trace grips) are gross and simple making working the things at the wee hours of the night easier. The manual of arms for the AR is like second nature to me and if I had to grab a rifle it wouldn't be a problem - during the day I'd probably draw one of those as the sight of the weapon would be a bigger factor then the sound of the shotgun.

At work we have plenty of .50's and 20mm cannons to defend ourselves with so the choice of weapons isn't an issue there.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:08:28 AM EDT
5.56 over-penetration is a problem with the ball ammo that folks typically buy--same compaint heard from the military. Fortunately, civilians have the option of using soft-point ammunition that is much more appropriate for use against animated targets. I still wouldn't use a rifle in the house.

As for CQB, especially in the home, I don't think a properly set-up shotgun can be beat. A well-done barrel modification will group your buckshot into 10" (uh, torso dimension) at 25 yards. Tht kind of tight pattern will pretty much minimize the chances of hitting a bystander with scatter, and will definitely concentrate all of your buck on the BG. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:12:14 AM EDT
Vang Comp 590 / Bushy 16" / AK 16"


Which do I grab? Which ever is closest.


Over penitration, some of this has to be tempered with - what are you personally familiar with.

If you have never patterned your SG and don't practice with it, you are holding a liability.


If you have an AR with the hubble telescope on it and need to fire at close range - you may be holding a liability.


Cha gots ta practice.


Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:26:36 AM EDT
Paul,

I agree completely that the chance of experiencing the situation that you described is remote as to be ludicrous.

I was simply commenting on your perspective that, if you were faced with this situation, you wouldn't use a carbine or shotgun. And am still curious of what you would use if faced with that hypothetical situation that you described.

Simple motor skills, when faced with a life/death situation, are the difference between being a victor or victim. Good point, Paul.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:13:06 AM EDT
I live in a "shotgun" house (ie, built more or less like a studio apartment), so if anyone breaks in on me, I have mere seconds to react.

I would probably make the first shot with my Glock that is always within arms reach. Then get the 870 if I needed more power or the Glock jammed/malfunctioned (here's hoping it doesn't).

Like the previous poster mentioned, I think I would be limited to engaging 1 or 2 targets at most. But home invasions are becoming more common and groups of 5-7 are not unheard of. I worry about gang bangers more than SHTF scenarios.

Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:28:25 AM EDT
CLICK CLICK BOOM! shotgun .
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:11:31 AM EDT
Does anyone think it would be stupid to use a sound suppressor with a preban carbine for CQB? It seems like a good idea since it eliminates the flash entirely and reduces muzzle blast by about 32+db. My only concern would be possible complications in the legal aftermath by using an NFA item. Do you think it would cause problems in court?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 12:21:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By slt223:
Does anyone think it would be stupid to use a sound suppressor with a preban carbine for CQB? .... Do you think it would cause problems in court?



There's no way I could risk it. First of all, in court, I'm guessing they would say you had illegal evil silencers in your house in order to ambush people or something. Not to mention if the police ever search your house and find it, thats a felony right there and no more guns for you.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:00:46 PM EDT
They wouldn't be illegal for some of us..
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:06:42 PM EDT

"No more guns for you!!!"
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:43:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They wouldn't be illegal for some of us.. hr


Why might that be?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:04:24 PM EDT
FWIW, The National Guard is now gone from the security checkpoints at the Honolulu International Airport and replaced with much more serious looking dudes with 12 Guage folding stock shotguns. I stopped and talked to one of the dudes for a minute on the way to my jet and he said they were the new security people hired by the FAA and were mostly made up of ex LEO's and military. I commented on the shotgun and he said that they had gone to them since they were more suitable for what they were doing.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:06:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 3:07:37 PM EDT by slt223]

Originally Posted By MattC:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They wouldn't be illegal for some of us..



Why might that be?




Hold the phone there MattC. I wasn't talking about doing anything illegal. In Connecticut I can legally possess a REGISTERED suppressor. I was wondering what you guys think a jury might think of it.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:08:27 PM EDT
While we are talking supressors,can anyone comment on the noise level of 12ga vs. .223 indoors. I would assume .223 to be much harder on the ears indoors??
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:47:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 321Bang:
While we are talking supressors,can anyone comment on the noise level of 12ga vs. .223 indoors. I would assume .223 to be much harder on the ears indoors??




This is precisely why I brought up the question. I doubt you would be able to hear the LEOs' orders when they show up at the scene if your ears are subjected to .223 indoors...especially from a carbine. The 12ga. wouldn't be too pleasant to listen to either, but it ain't no .223 carbine. I wouldn't be too suprised if a muzzle break equipped carbine ruptures ear drums indoors when no hearing protection is used.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:07:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MattC:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They wouldn't be illegal for some of us..



Why might that be?



I live in a free state..


that's why!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:14:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 8:15:59 PM EDT by MattC]


I live in a free state..


that's why!



Oh wow. I didn't know suppressors were legal in any states without going through all the NFA/class III deal... How much do they cost anyway?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:31:17 PM EDT
I carry a Mossberg 500 loaded with 5 rounds of 000B in the mag, 2 more on the stock, next to 4 slugs. I know at 25 yards, all the pellets fit nicely into a silhouette target, and the slugs fit into 2-3" at 50 yards. I keep my CAR loaded with a 30 rd mag full of Hornady Varmit Express to ensure that I don't overpenetrate. I'd probably grab the shotgun first. My glock 22 is just to fight my way to the shotgun or AR.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:58:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MattC:


I live in a free state..


that's why!



Oh wow. I didn't know suppressors were legal in any states without going through all the NFA/class III deal... How much do they cost anyway?




In the states where they are legal, you HAVE TO go through the NFA/class 3 stuff because that is federal law. See, this is why I asked the question that I did. Like you, I'm assuming a jury doesn't know the law (no offense, but you don't, and I'm not saying this to demean you any way since lots of people aren't familiar w/CIII) and would assume I'm in violation of some kind of bullshit simply cause they don't know the law. I would also consider that the punk ass DA wouldn't explain to them that I am w/in the legal perameters.

So, having said this my question is, are the tactical advantages of a suppressor out weighted by the POSSIBLE legall reprocussions in court...if there are any. Please share your opinion.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:12:06 PM EDT
I think using a suppressor would bury you. The average citizen has no idea what the NFA is and even when explained in legalese they are still going to question it. It's a matter of a lifetime of television indoctrination overpowering 10 minutes of logical legal explaination. Even assuming you did get a jury that could comprehend the situation, is it really an obstacle you'd like to try and overcome? If I did have to use a suppressed pistol I'd be unscrewing that suppressor real quick after the fact. This is my opinion as someone who owns no NFA items.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:50:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MattC:


I live in a free state..


that's why!



Oh wow. I didn't know suppressors were legal in any states without going through all the NFA/class III deal... How much do they cost anyway?



I did 'go through all the NFA/Class III deal' stuff.

This one is around $1200 +$200 tax stamp.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:52:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hatebreed:
I think using a suppressor would bury you. The average citizen has no idea what the NFA is and even when explained in legalese they are still going to question it. It's a matter of a lifetime of television indoctrination overpowering 10 minutes of logical legal explaination. Even assuming you did get a jury that could comprehend the situation, is it really an obstacle you'd like to try and overcome? If I did have to use a suppressed pistol I'd be unscrewing that suppressor real quick after the fact. This is my opinion as someone who owns no NFA items.



I think you're spot on. Even in my state, and in a very conservative county in that state, I wouldn't do it. You're just asking for trouble.

Link Posted: 4/21/2002 9:41:03 AM EDT
Question #2:

Can a ballistics lab determine whether a bullet has passed through a can. Specifically, the one (AWC?) on your USP Tactical?
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 12:01:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 2:17:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By slt223:
Question #2:

Can a ballistics lab determine whether a bullet has passed through a can. Specifically, the one (AWC?) on your USP Tactical?



That's a Knight's Armament. And the answer would be, sometimes. If enough misalignment is present that the bullet contacts any of the baffles it can leave some marks. Otherwise, not really. Clues to the use of a suppressor would include atypical powder particulate patterns at the entrance wound (probably only applicable to close i.e. within 12-24 inches range) or in the case of suppressors that utilize artificial environment, grease or oil spatters would be evident. The Knight uses water, so it's possible that it would be easier to overlook media staining.

QS
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 3:29:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By MattC:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
They wouldn't be illegal for some of us..



Why might that be?



I live in a free state.. that's why!



Me, too:


Link Posted: 4/22/2002 3:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MattC:


I live in a free state..


that's why!



Oh wow. I didn't know suppressors were legal in any states without going through all the NFA/class III deal... How much do they cost anyway?



Matt,

We share the same state, drop a line & I'll give you the legal lowdown on these little gems (No, I'm not a dealer). Way2ManyCritters@msn.com
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 5:26:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I am still worried about overpenetration with a 223 after watching if zip thru plates of steel with no problems so thats why I like the shotgun for indoors, but if I got in a nasty shootout I would have too grab the 223!



Steel and walls are two different things. Briefly, steel plates actually stabilize the .223. Then it becomes essentially a hardness issue. A good wall, though not as rigid as steel actually will take in the energy of the .223 and if it destabilizes just a bit (which it is supposed to) the bullet will shatter, especially at such close ranges. But, don't use ss109/m855 for that, use m193 at most. Also, , if .223 hits someone it is less likely to exit, as might a slug or magnum handgun load. FWIW, my first choice in the house is my baby .45 . Call the sheriff first if you can, and stay in one place. Rambo is in the movies.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 5:43:54 AM EDT
A number of posts seem to be related to politics and appearances, especially to a jury, which are very practical issues. I think you first have to assess the situation in your state and county in general. Examine case law. A big help can be the courses for CCW. LEarned a lot from that regardng case law. Then again, the instructor was a retired LEO.

I would suggest you avoid anything saying "magnum." Yeah, I know. But refer to another comment in this thread about "lifetime of television indoctrination." Very true. People take tv for truth. Also avoid anything too "tricked up." In some states, that means anything other than pretty wood hunting equipment. In others, you'd have to be pretty radical.

Best advice is to put ego in your pocket afterwards. You were cowering in the corner in your bedroom. Sounds better than "I tracked the suckah through the house and got the sob." In the right state, just NOT doing the wrong thing will result in no charges even being filed. Don't give an over ambitious DA ammunition to use.

Best procedure, if you were lucky enough to get off a call to the sheriff, leave the phone open, there will be a taped record of what happened. Stay put - no hunting.
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