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Posted: 4/17/2002 7:17:40 PM EDT
I did and I must say I laughed out loud when I heard the the fire lines man say "the seal abused his M16 beyond repair". Now I do not know much about a M16 rifle, I have never shot one or held one, but besides the guts and the name I think it close to an ar15. I know an ar15 can take a few taps on the butt with your hand and a slam in the sand. I also know it can rake a round on a nonseated mag a few times and not cause all the damage to the round like the fire lines man said it did. The fire lines man also said the seal did something to the mag well, I did not hear what it was. Again I do not know a great deal about an m16 only what I can read, but I feel this was total bull****. Anyone agree or am I off in the deep end.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:22:54 PM EDT
the Simunitions system was what failed, NOT Jeff Byers or his immediate action drills.

they should have stuck to the MILES system and blanks for that exercise.

lame-o.

i won't even mention the even lamer Simunitions finale.

but is still watched every episode. heh.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:24:54 PM EDT
its bullshit the rso from lapd swat has no clue what he is talking about, although the SEAL didnt know proper misfire procedures on the m16 weapons system (which i find very hard to belive) so im saying it was a shitty plastic mag. not the bolt sawing into the round and creating metal shavings which some how crushed the mag well. its rigged. and that simunition shit at the end man that was out there. how can that little kids game they had rigged up prove the best operator? like i said im thinking it was rigged from the start.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:25:16 PM EDT
I found it rather disappointing. The whole malfunction thing. But what really got me was the last shoot out. That looked stupid! It didn't really prove and thing. At the end it looked like they were hanging on to each other and trying to stick the gun in each others face!
I think they could have done something better.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:26:25 PM EDT
sorry guy but that was frangable ammo in the mags for the combat course where byers got eliminated. not sims.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:26:29 PM EDT
i agree completely which is why i had to quit watching that show. when i first arrived on parris island i was appalled at how the DIs treated the recruit's M16s. i told this story here before but once we were practicing Inspection Arms in the squad bay and my bolt let go early "KA-CHIIING" the senior flipped out, snatched my rifle by the barrel and began to whack it on the deck as hard as he could 5 or 6 times like he was chopping wood. i mean sparks were flying from the rear sling loop and there were black marks on the deck from the butt. he thrust it back at me and yelled "good luck qualifying with that f**k-stick" i shot 8 for 10 in the black at 500 and qualified expert. turned out my bolt catch was worn. an armorer replaced it at the range. so yes. the M16 is mighty durable. they can take more punishment than we would ever dream of eexposing our expensive, beloved AR's to. but back to the show: why do they fight in their packs and helmets, and whats with that big clunky comm gear? even the miserly Corps has better gear than that.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:30:11 PM EDT
The championship match was anti-climatic. I was expecting something a little more challenging and exciting to test the abilities of these guys. The seal got screwed over with the simunitions systems but it could have happen to anyone of them. Had it not been for that malfunction he probably would have been a quarter of a million dollars richer.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:37:07 PM EDT
The final event was stupid. At one point it looked like they were slapping each other. That was the most absurd example of spray and pray I have ever seen. The exploding glass was annoying and silly. Do you think they will be back next year?

ARH
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:41:15 PM EDT
The first part where bravo split in urban combat was pretty cool, but it went downhill fast from there. And why are they using plastic mags (evil black rifle probably ate it)? Maybe the same reason they use civilian Hummers painted OD. The last thing where they chased each other around was incredibly stupid. Maybe next season it will be less Survivor and more combat stuff.

Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:48:10 PM EDT
As bad as that final competition was I did find the show entertaining enough to follow it week after week which is something I rarely do. I hope we do have a second season and hopefully they will devise a better final bout. In regards to the weapon malfunctioning because of the seals "abuse", I dont buy it. The lapd instructor didnt want to acknowledge the possibility of the simunitions system malfunctioning and instead blamed the operator who imho was not the problem.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:51:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 7:53:16 PM EDT by Prairie-Ranger]
This show was great right up until the "finale"

I agree with you guys on both accounts.

Something was wrong with poor Byers's gun, mag, ammo, or some combination thereof. Why the hell did they use those goofy plastic mags anyways? (I have to admit they looked kind of cool though)

The final shootout... very lame... Ended up shooting at point blank, trying to move the other mans weapon while still shooting at his head... WTH? Of all the interesting missions they came up with, what kind of crap is that?

I hope they do have another season... I just hope they change the "finale"
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:33:50 PM EDT
I agree, they should have ended it with the 3 man elimination, and they should have put the targets a bit farther out then at the end. The final contest was definately a Joke. They should have used the urban area again.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:43:01 PM EDT
After each time the SEAL pulled back the bolt and released it he pulled the trigger and I could hear the hammer fall but no bang! could it have been the Firing pin? messed up ammo?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:57:53 PM EDT
While I was watching the urban mission,I kept asking myself where would a totaly vacant neighborhood be and why?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:36:35 PM EDT
It wasn't a Simunitions system...those were live rounds. Notice how they made them unload while they were running?

Those malfunctions were classic weak magazine spring or faulty lips + weak magazine spring...overwhelmingly familiar to anyone who has tried to use aftermarket magazines.

Anyone notice how most hits on the colored disks were low? Less than 25m means hold high for offset!

What I took from the "urban assault" was that distances were measured in feet. They had two shootouts with combatants less than 40 feet (~13m) from each other.

The final was wierd. They ended up trying to parry each other's weapon away (distance = arms length) while shooting. Wonder if there's a lesson there. Also, neither realized when they were empty. Wonder if the first and most common malfunction clearance should be *reload.*

This was the only episode I watched since ESPN2 blacked out the Sharks game midway through the 2nd period . Don't have cable and only watch TV with friends/family when there's sports. Hopefully they will rebroadcast or release tape. I did like the fact that these guys seemed like classy guys...not what I heard about that Halveston guy.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:50:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 12:04:56 AM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
does this magazine look familiar? (check the rebroadcasts of the show):

www.simunition.com/images/conversion.pdf

www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=91

per the posts of a contestant on another board, blanks for the MILES, Simunitions for all else.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 4:49:06 AM EDT
True, the final was a waste
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 5:11:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 5:53:31 AM EDT by WTL]

Originally Posted By Scott_Jimenez:
does this magazine look familiar? (check the rebroadcasts of the show):

www.simunition.com/images/conversion.pdf

www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=91

per the posts of a contestant on another board, blanks for the MILES, Simunitions for all else.




Yep, those are definitely the uppers they used when Byers gun malfunctioned. I wondered why the barrels were painted blue! Now I know.

I didn't buy the instructor's assessment that the seal had damaged the weapon beyond repair.... HA! A couple of taps with his hand and one hit on the ground, that broke the gun beyond repair? I doubt it. However, I did expect a better performance out of the seal. He seemed a little awkward with his handling of the gun during loading the mag, chambering a round and then ejecting the live round.... it was almost like he'd never done that before. The other two were much smoother with their weapons handling.

The finale.... a major let down. They looked like school kids chasing each other around. I'm sure this wasn't the intentions of the producer.


I only saw the last 4 shows, can anyone tell me if the military guys were active duty or not? Almost all of them had a civilian look.


Edited to add: I answered my own question by going to the combat missions web site... the guys are EX-MEMBERS.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:43:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 7:46:33 AM EDT by SMGLee]

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
While I was watching the urban mission,I kept asking myself where would a totaly vacant neighborhood be and why?



M4, the whole series was filmed on site at a abandoned air force base in SoCal. George AFB is located just outside of Victorville, CA. About an hour and forty minutes east of Los Angeles. It is on the way to Vegas for us.
George AFB used to station the Wild Weasels.

The blue barrel of the M4 denote the weapon as a SimunitionFX gun. Ronnie Anderson is a very well respected SWAT operator, he has been with LAPD Metro SWAT for as long as I can remember, I was a bit disappointed at his comment about Jeff's M4. Magazine wasn't seated well, I thought Jeff slam the mag home, bad weapon, bad set up. I am very disappointed about the out come of that excerise. And of course, the final match, what a freaking joke.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 8:50:36 AM EDT
I stand corrected. Those were Sim rounds. Why unload them after every shoot? And what kind of plastic gets defeated by a Sim round?

That leads me to another point. Simunitions expands in hot temperatures. In the class I took the rounds would swell and jam the Glocks/Sigs we were using (leading to virtually the same circumstances this guy encountered). We ended up storing the rounds and guns in a cooler until they were needed.

That's wierd. I could have sworn the sighters they shot were live rounds...Sim rounds make a sound no louder than a primer going off or a subsonic .22LR from a target rifle. At least the ones I've used.

James
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 10:28:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 10:29:01 AM EDT by Dave_G]
Byers may have damaged the magazine. If I recall correctly, at the first station he was somewhat fumble-fingered and smacked the mag fairly hard. It was plastic. The RSO did indicate that the mag was tight in the well and I think he say that the mag well or lower was damaged beyond repair. Byers never thought to pop the rounds out of the mag and single feed them to get around a mag or mag well/catch failure. Too much pressure to think clearly.

As for the final event, it looked like a typical close quarters urban shootout with michelin man suits to me. They both fired 30 or so rounds with few hits.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 11:43:59 AM EDT
>>I stand corrected. Those were Sim rounds. Why unload them after every shoot? And what kind of plastic gets defeated by a Sim round?<<
Simunitions makes many types of rounds, the paintball round is just one style I believe they were using one of the Simunitions rounds that fires a projectile. Could have been their frangible ammo or something else, but it wasn't the paintball sim. Remeber the targets when they were zeroing the weapons.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 1:38:16 PM EDT
I happen to know Jody Taylor, who was on Bravo, and he once made the comment that there wasn't any honor on the show to start with. That makes me think that the entire show was rigged.

Vulcan94
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:27:01 PM EDT
Makes sense that it was some form of low velocity/ low powered round they were shooting. I wouldn't want to be a cameraman around the bend /downrange from shooters. The shots appeared to take a bit of time to go downrange, unless the delay was an editing effect.

Someone has already answered my location question in this post. I was wondering where this deserted housing used in the urban assault and urban hostage rescue was at, and it makes sense that it's at a closed airbase. I first thought it was part of some police or gov't owned urban training center, but that didn't really click for me.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:42:01 PM EDT
I did not see the first 2 or so shows. I became a fan as soon as I watched an episode. They did some cool things, but the final was LOUSY. I think Jeff would have made the final if not for the problem. Either way the last part could not have gotten much worse.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:44:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Prairie-Ranger:
Why the hell did they use those goofy plastic mags anyways? (I have to admit they looked kind of cool though)




I don't know if any one answered this question for you or if you know or not, but the clear magazines was for simuntion rounds, basically like a paintball type round, it's a 9mm round that is a more powerful paintball round, they have to put a different upper on the rifle (a 9mm upper) to get it to work. Hence the blue barrel.

During the Olympics, my unit trained with the 19th SF group up there (Utah), they wanted some people they could shoot at and have shoot back with simuntion rounds, we eventually had to use our pistols, we couldn't get the M4 Simuntion uppers to work in the cold, same problem as that guy on CM, it kept jamming.
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