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Posted: 4/8/2002 11:42:40 AM EDT
new bushmaster, less than 500 rds, has started jamming about every 3 shots, doesn't seem to matter which mag (usgi, black followers, 30rd) shooting sa surplus ammo and some pmc. is this the start of a continuous problem or just a break in period problem or what. i know ar's need more tlc than some rifles, but i don't think i want to depend on one that won't stay functional after a couple hundred rounds.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:53:50 AM EDT
OK. Lets be logical. In the AR15/M16 family of weapons most failures in a properly maintained rifle can be traced to either the mag or the ammo. Assuming that you have properly lubed the weapon and that all of your mags are serviceable, I would think to look at the SA ammo, which is horrible and never functioned right in my AR, or the PMC, which is a little less than horrible, but not by much. Go to ammoman.com or ammodeal.com or whoever you use and buy some M855/SS109 or some M193. If the weapon, again properly lubed and with good mags, fails to function, then send it back to Bushmaster. I have yet to have had a problem with SS109 or M855 because they are the same thing. The M193 has also never failed me. IMI is pretty cheap out of Claflin cartridge, and has also never failed me. Let us know the results. And never, never, ever use wolf ammo in your AR.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:55:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gregrph:
new bushmaster, less than 500 rds, has started jamming about every 3 shots, doesn't seem to matter which mag (usgi, black followers, 30rd) shooting sa surplus ammo and some pmc. is this the start of a continuous problem or just a break in period problem or what. i know ar's need more tlc than some rifles, but i don't think i want to depend on one that won't stay functional after a couple hundred rounds.



That rifle has some other issue going on - that is NOT right. Call up Bushmaster on the Phone - they should pick it up and get it fixed.

BTW you did try adjusting the Mag Catch tension first right? Sometimes these 'loosen' up a bit with a new rifle and the tension either needs to be increased a turn or two (or more rarely decreased).
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:57:45 AM EDT
Try some Wolf ammo out. You'll be impressed!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:59:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By poikilotrm:
, I would think to look at the SA ammo, which is horrible and never functioned right in my AR,


I've personally shot 1000's of rounds of SA surplus as have my buddies (its currently the ammo of choice for our Maryland AR-15 shoots). I don't think I've ever seen an ammo related problem with the SA. I've seen it with Handloads, but not with SA. If your rifle can't shoot SA its got issues....


I have yet to have had a problem with SS109 or M855 because they are the same thing.


That is not true. Many of the SS109 loadings from Europe (particularly the British stuff) isn't up to M855 specs - its too slow.


Let us know the results. And never, never, ever use wolf ammo in your AR.

I also prefer to avoid Wolf - but I've run a case of it through my Bushmaster (half of it within 2 hours time) with only a few failures to fire (due to bad primers). Cheap ammo for Blasting!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:04:00 PM EDT
Ya know if you were more descriptive than "Jamming" and tell us what's going on - and preferably take this thread over to Troubleshooting I'll bet you could fix the problem yourself in less time it takes to send the rifle to Bushmaster.

(but I'm betting its the Magazine Catch, based on what I've heard so far).
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:34:07 PM EDT
I'd take a look at the bolt carrier key. It may have loosened up.

Otherwise, you need to provide a little bit more info on what kind of malfunctions you are experiencing. Failure to feed? Failure to fire? Failure to eject? Short recoil?
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:52:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 12:57:04 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By gregrph:
new bushmaster, less than 500 rds, has started jamming about every 3 shots, doesn't seem to matter which mag (usgi, black followers, 30rd) shooting sa surplus ammo and some pmc. is this the start of a continuous problem or just a break in period problem or what. i know ar's need more tlc than some rifles, but i don't think i want to depend on one that won't stay functional after a couple hundred rounds.




1. You'd better figure out how to keep ANY rifle running that your life may depend on.

2. Bushmaster is a quality weapon.

3. Your Bushy is under warranty. Send it back if you won't take the time or effort to diagnose the problem.

4. You just bought it. Why sell? I'd return the gun before I lost money selling it.


I get frustrated with AR Bashers (not saying you are one) that don't take the time to figure out what is happening. As mentioned, the AR is a very reliable weapon. Manufacturing problems do occur. My Rock River Arms LEGP gun didn't work when I got it. I diagnosed and replaced the extractor, and it's run like a champ since. RRA replaced the extractor with a new one, no problem.

YOU NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN TO KEEP YOUR WEAPONS RUNNING. This is a critical survival skill.

Swing over to the MCDL/Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Manual Depot and download the TM9-1005-319-23&P - M16A2/M4 Maintenance (troubleshooting & repairing) guide and run through the diagonosis.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:58:58 PM EDT
Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll go ahead and give you $500 for it so you dont have to deal with it. :) Where do I send the money?
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 2:58:46 PM EDT
I guess I am one lucky guy. I have shot all kinds of ammo from my four Bushmasters, reloads of all kinds and factory ammo of all kinds and I have never, I REPEAT, never had a feeding or jamming problem. And to be honest, some of the reloads were "slapped toghther" safely but not not cleanly.

If the weapon is new, send it back for inspection. Odds are that there is something wrong with the weapon IF you have used different Mags AND different AMMO and are still having the same problem.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 5:38:53 AM EDT
originally posted by fight for your rightsYOU NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN TO KEEP YOUR WEAPONS RUNNING. This is a critical survival skill.

that is my point exactly, my bushy with very little usage as far as i'm concerned, wants to behave poorly. i have other rifles (hk91 clone) that eat any ammo and don't mind a little dirt. i am well aware that ar's require more cleaning and maintenance than the hk or ak type rifles. but less than 500 rds of ammo should not send me to the cleaning shed.

the type of jamming that i'm experiencing is a failure to feed, after ejecting the spent round, the next round is getting pinched by the bolt and bolt carrier about 3/4 of the way up on the casing.

the reason i'm not at troubleshooters, is i'm not sure i want to keep the rifle, i'll fix it before i sell it, but if i can't depend on it, i don't want it. i would like to address issue #1 in my mind before worrying about niggling details.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 6:04:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gregrph:
...but less than 500 rds of ammo should not send me to the cleaning shed.



Just my opinion, of course....but I'm thinking that your rifle is telling you that it is time to visit that cleaning shed.

I'm also thinking fight4yourrights gave you some very good advice.

I reserve the right to be wrong here.

Jim
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 7:06:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2002 2:08:11 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By gregrph:
the type of jamming that i'm experiencing is a failure to feed, after ejecting the spent round, the next round is getting pinched by the bolt and bolt carrier about 3/4 of the way up on the casing.



Sounds like either the magazines you are using are bad (still a posibility), or the Magazine catch isn't tight enough so the rounds are not feeding properly (now where have I heard that before??).

ANY rifle that isn't assembled properly won't work right. Yours just needs 20 seconds to tighten the mag catch to where it holds the magazine securely. Then it should run right as rain. Most of the Bushmaster's I've seen right right out of the box and keep running. There have been 1 or two with issue but they are usually very quick and easy to fix.

Edited for a part swap...
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 7:23:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gregrph:
that is my point exactly, my bushy with very little usage as far as i'm concerned, wants to behave poorly.




I hear what you are saying - you don't want to count on an unreliable weapon. We agree.

My point is that you need to learn how to diagose the problem anyway. If the gun is easily fixed, great. If it has to go back to Bushmaster to be fixed, fine. If it's a lemon and you want a different one, that's okay too.

But don't just throw up your hands and say "it's a finiky POS, I'm getting rid of it". Download the manual, follow some of the tips here and diagnose the problem. Once you've got that figured out, then decide what to do with the weapon. I really think it is worth your time.

1. clean and lubricate the gun PER the military method/specification

2. retest - use the TM to diagnose the problem

3. try tightening the mag catch

4. try a few more magazines to ensure they aren't the problem

5. get some help from someone more experienced
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 7:33:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Sounds like either the magazines you are using are bad (still a posibility), or the bolt catch isn't tight enough so the rounds are not feeding properly (now where have I heard that before??).



I can't imagine the bolt catch being a problem here.



ANY rifle that isn't assembled properly won't work right. Yours just needs 20 seconds to tighten the mag catch to where it holds the magazine securely. Then it should run right as rain. Most of the Bushmaster's I've seen right right out of the box and keep running. There have been 1 or two with issue but they are usually very quick and easy to fix.



My best guess would be the mags or mag catch; however, he'll need to strip a bit from the lower to have room to adjust it. It's usually step 1 of building a lower and for good reason. I just wouldn't want him to think this is a 20 second job. It wouldn't be for me anyway.

Jim
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 8:31:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2002 8:34:29 AM EDT by Bill_Clinton]

Originally Posted By gregrph:
originally posted by fight for your rightsYOU NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN TO KEEP YOUR WEAPONS RUNNING. This is a critical survival skill.

that is my point exactly, my bushy with very little usage as far as i'm concerned, wants to behave poorly. i have other rifles (hk91 clone) that eat any ammo and don't mind a little dirt. i am well aware that ar's require more cleaning and maintenance than the hk or ak type rifles. but less than 500 rds of ammo should not send me to the cleaning shed.

the type of jamming that i'm experiencing is a failure to feed, after ejecting the spent round, the next round is getting pinched by the bolt and bolt carrier about 3/4 of the way up on the casing.

the reason i'm not at troubleshooters, is i'm not sure i want to keep the rifle, i'll fix it before i sell it, but if i can't depend on it, i don't want it. i would like to address issue #1 in my mind before worrying about niggling details.




Sounds like a loose gas key on your bolt carrier. check that tighten it and it should work just fine. Had the same thing happen to me. Try that. Or a broken gas ring on your bolt.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 8:39:30 AM EDT
My Eagle Arms was experiencing some of the same problems when it was new. I, true to Ammoman's predictions, blamed the ammo. Friend of mine thought it was something else and checked out the rifle - there was a burr in the gas port that prevented the bolt from functioning properly - apparently the gas feed was impaired to the point where insufficient gas was being delivered to work the action. He cleaned up the gas port and it's purred like a kitten ever since. YMMV.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 10:08:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sundrop:
My best guess would be the mags or mag catch; however, he'll need to strip a bit from the lower to have room to adjust it. It's usually step 1 of building a lower and for good reason. I just wouldn't want him to think this is a 20 second job. It wouldn't be for me anyway.



You don't have to strip or disassemble anything to adjust or even remove the magazine catch. All that is required is to depress the magazine release button far enough to allow the catch on the other side to be rotated. Then it can be tightened or loosened. i'm still curious as to what benefit adjusting it would actually provide, but it's such a simple task that it couldn't really hurt anything to try it as one step of the troubleshooting procedure.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 1:24:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:
You don't have to strip or disassemble anything to adjust or even remove the magazine catch. All that is required is to depress the magazine release button far enough to allow the catch on the other side to be rotated. Then it can be tightened or loosened. i'm still curious as to what benefit adjusting it would actually provide, but it's such a simple task that it couldn't really hurt anything to try it as one step of the troubleshooting procedure.



I stand corrected. I felt certain the bolt catch would interfere. My apologies to Forest.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 2:18:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sundrop:
My apologies to Forest.



No problem - you caught my typing in the wrong part (bolt catch when I mean Magazine Catch) in my second post (at least I got it right in my first posting!)


Orginally Posted By Boomer:
i'm still curious as to what benefit adjusting it would actually provide


You would be surprised how tightening up the magazine catch will fix some feeding problems. Holding in the magazine that much 'tighter' seems to keep the feeding geometry better. Its a standard item to check for feeding problems (see page 88 of the 1986 version of the -10).

If the bolt ISN'T picking up the round and trying to feed it (sounds like it is though) then I'd suspect a problem with the bolt carrier key as someone else mentioned.
Link Posted: 4/9/2002 7:24:30 PM EDT
thanks for all the input guys. i think i've gotten my answer. keep it and fix it. it's just a minor deal (we'll see- i'm a crappy gunsmith). i will try some of your suggestions and take it to my gunsmith if i can't get it right myself. sounds like it just needs a little fine tuning during the break-in period. anyway thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 5:08:33 AM EDT
Is it possible that this type of failure could be caused by the openings in the gas rings being aligned?

Just a thought.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 5:39:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mini14jac:
Is it possible that this type of failure could be caused by the openings in the gas rings being aligned?

Just a thought.



NO A properly function AR will function with 1 ring - 2 insures reliability - 3 you've got redudancy. The gap issue is overrates - especially as the rings start to rotate when you fire - during a range session there are probably times when 2 (or 3) of the gaps are aligned.
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