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Posted: 4/3/2002 2:10:16 PM EDT
Has anyone here witnessed a shooting where someone was dropped in there tracks with just one round or did it take a few. when Readin about shootings it always seems like the person is attacking gets hit, falls or staggers away then dies, which I think could be dangerous because in that short time the person still could be dangerous.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:16:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 2:47:04 PM EDT by Waverunner]
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:28:42 PM EDT
One shot, dropped, no wiggle.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:31:22 PM EDT
so it is possible for a handgun round to accomplice this, thats good too hear.
What gun and caliber was used in that shooting ARgon
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:41:18 PM EDT
Back in 1996, an Army friend's little brother, a new deputy sheriff, did a felony stop on a guy in Southeastern Tennessee.

The guy charged him with a knife - but "Little Brother" pulled his S&W 4566 (I believe, or the smaller 4516) and shot the guy in the upper chest with a single Federal 230-grain Hydra-Shok. Dropped the bad guy like a bad habit. He told me he didn't expect the guy to drop that fast - he said it was "like throwing a switch."

Curiously, it didn't kill him. It was enough to incapacitate. The SOB, er...sorry, the poor, downtrodden convict, got a lot of time for that, and a few other things that he did.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:46:13 PM EDT
Take out the lower brain, the brain stem, or the spinal cord and you've got your one shot stop, and it can be done with a .22 or a perfectly placed pellet of no.8 shot. Cut the cords, and the puppet drops NOW.

CJ
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:00:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 3:04:50 PM EDT by osprey21]
I was taught to shoot for (#8) the Medulla Oblengata. The part of the vertebrate brain that is continuous posteriorly with
the spinal cord and that contains the centers controlling involuntary
vital functions.

Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:09:03 PM EDT
just get a 100rd drum, shoot untill he is down.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:43:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 3:46:00 PM EDT by DonR]
www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

(Would someone please activate this for me?)

Never want to be faced with the life-or-death decision to shoot another human, of course, but do know that the times when my "large" or LARGE mammal quarry have dropped, instantly, with one shot, are rare indeed. (I think that when hunting, particularly when trophy hunting, that a head shot is a risky one, and that a medulla or even brainstem hit is a lucky one, no reason not to take a shot there, though, cause there are lots of vitals in the area.)

Also, not trying to split hairs, but the medulla oblongata is superior (or cranial or cephalad in spatial relation), to the spinal cord.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:54:52 PM EDT
Thanks, DonR, for the activation. I'll figure out how to do that onea these days.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 5:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 6:08:55 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Since we switched to semi auto pistols(S&W's in .45ACP 230 Grn. Federal Hydra Shok's) from revolvers(.38 Spl.+P 158 Grn. lead hollow point) back in 90/91 we have had 7 officer involved shootings. 5 out of 7 were 1 shot kills, 1 was a 2 shot kill and 1 survived but was stopped by 1 shot to the forearm. The guy who got shot in the forearm went down like a wet bag of cement(no will to fight) Most of the others had time to say a few words. One guy actually said to the officer "you done killed me"
Another said "I'm hurt bad' none lived long enough for the paramedics to arrive(yes, we call them ASAP). If you hit them in the right place(central nervous system) they will drop like a rock no matter what you shoot them with. Shot placement is more important than caliber. Of course there are other things to consider like the psychology of the person who is shot. We have been conditioned by popular culture(movies and T.V.) to believe that when you are shot you go down, hence the forearm shot mentioned above. If your adversary is not determined an otherwise minor wound will put him out of action. If he is determined then several otherwise fatal wounds(FBI Miami bank robber shoot out of 86) will not stop him unless you damage the central nervous system(spinal cord).
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 6:53:23 PM EDT
Groin...aim for the groin...I'd drop, that's for sure
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 7:10:05 PM EDT
well, even if somone runs around like a headless chicken, they still die "in thier tracks"
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 7:26:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 7:27:47 PM EDT by Vinnie]
The 1911, issued to our boys to stop the Filipino warriors in their tracks with one shot. The Filipino warriors were so jacked up on narcotics and adrenaline that they would be able to withstand many hits. The military wanted a pistol that would be able to drop any man with one shot. Enter the 1911. (they were of the Muslim varaity back then too aka "The Moros")
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 7:42:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2002 7:48:03 PM EDT by ARH]
I saw an episode of Cops where a knife wielding man was shot one time and he hit the ground in a heartbeat. He was not killed, and was moving around but he was definitely not fighting anymore. The gun appeared to be a Sig 9mm. I would assume the round was either a 115, 124, or 147 grain hollow point.

ARH

PS He was hit in the abdomin.

Vinnie grits are made of corn and taste best with lots of pepper and butter.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 8:22:22 PM EDT
Vinnie,

You're pretty close to correct.

The .45ACP round was adopted in 1905 (don't have my text books in front of me, so sorry if I didn't get the year correct) due to the weakness of the .38 Long Colt in stopping power exactly as you described.

The weapon that beat back the Moro warriors, however, wasn't the 1911. It was the Colt 1873 Peacemaker, in .45 Colt. A set of these wheelguns were issued to troops shortly after reports of marijuana and hashish-smoking Moros couldn't be stopped by the newer Colt DA.

A very young Lieutenant Douglas MacArthur's life was saved by a Sergeant wielding a Peacemaker on a patrol one afternoon.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 9:36:21 PM EDT
ARH: Thanks, I actually had some last week while at Blackwater in NC. This week FOX was playing My Cousin Vinnie so I figured I'd throw it in my signature line.

AndyTN: I could have sworn it was the 1911. I humbly stand corrected.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 10:26:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
ARH: Thanks, I actually had some last week while at Blackwater in NC. This week FOX was playing My Cousin Vinnie so I figured I'd throw it in my signature line.

AndyTN: I could have sworn it was the 1911. I humbly stand corrected.



Yeah the 1911 is old- but not THAT old. It was built from experience gained in the Philippines fighting Moros- but it only was used in one campaign against them. A punitive expidition against the Moros on Jolo Island for piracy in 1912. The troops that did the punishing were a battalion of Philippine Scouts and a company of the 8th Infantry under the command of Captain John J. Pershing.

And not all the officers and NCO's authorised to carry handguns carried the new gun there, some didn't trust automatics yet and so they carried the M1909 Colt Revolver- a military New Service in .45 Long Colt- and its ass kicking M1909 Revolver Ball Cartridge- 230gr bullet at 1150fps, the cartridges had oversized rims (and also solid heads) to prevent them from being loaded in M1873's. Only 5000 M1909's were built and they ALL went to the Phillippine Islands to replace the worn out M1873's there.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:05:48 AM EDT
The whole one shot thing is great in theory, and I know it does happen sometimes, but if I am shootin', I am killin'. Two shots center mass, follow with one to the head. Check your target, and continue to fire if necessary. The first one might do it, but I ain't gonna bet my life on it either.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:19:17 AM EDT
Specifically witnessed...one...45acp Hydra Shok. Know details of several more by other officers using various .357, .38spl, .40 and 9mm rounds. It happens from time to time.

This having been said, NO handgun round can be counted on to put a human down instantly! The handgun is the shortest-range, least powerful and most difficult to shoot well of all small arms. The reason we carry a handgun is because we cannot always carry a "real" gun.

Beyond that, there are "physical" stops and there are "psychological" stops. To generate a non-voluntary instant physical stop, you must generally strike the "control center" or the "support structure" (skelekal). Sometimes this happens, but in a fast, close situation where targets are moving and/or using partial cover, light and shadow, etc., you may be damned thankful to get one good hit center-mass.

At this point, you are looking at a "hydraulic" shot...and are dependant upon loss of blood (or blood pressure) to cause your opponent to stop trying to do bad things to you. Even if you get a center hit on the "pump", the "lines" are still pressurized and it will be several seconds before a determined (or doped-up...or both) opponent becomes involuntarily stopped.

Any idea what you can do in, say, 8-10sec. with a decent weapon? Any idea just how looonnng 10sec can be with someone shooting at you or trying to carve your guts out with a knife?

Make plans for your pistola to NOT work immediately...think about movement, barriers, cover. Think multiple hits...Hell, think multiple adversaries with multiple hits! Think of the pistol as a "hole punch"...big holes work better than small ones...more holes work better than fewer ones...deep holes work better than shallow ones...but best of all is a big, deep hole in the correct place.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:39:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USP40C:
The whole one shot thing is great in theory, and I know it does happen sometimes, but if I am shootin', I am killin'. Two shots center mass, follow with one to the head. Check your target, and continue to fire if necessary. The first one might do it, but I ain't gonna bet my life on it either.



Mostly agree... shoot center of mass, continue firing on opponent until cessation of hostilities. Don't forget the "pluse 1" rule. Bad guy one may be first wave of attack. Expect second wave from flanks or rear...

One-shot-stops: I've read about as many reports on street shootings as I care to. A few things are apparent to me: Sometimes things go great (one shot stop), other times the SOB's seem like superman. This is in regards to all calibers, ranges, & shot placements. There was a guy who shot his girlfriend in the head with a .44 mag & then himself in the head w/ the same gun. She lived (brain damage) but he died instantly...

Another situation, an off-duty cop stopped an armed robbery (three bad guys) with determination & a "mouse gun" (.32 acp?). I don't recall all the specifics, but it seems that he wounded all three & killed one. I do remember that he took a few himself (determination) but has since recovered.

Regadless, I carry as much gun as I can, depending on the situation.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:49:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By osprey21:
I was taught to shoot for (#8) the Medulla Oblengata. The part of the vertebrate brain that is continuous posteriorly with
the spinal cord and that contains the centers controlling involuntary
vital functions.




Too hard a shot. If you look at records its a frontal round to the cranial ocular cavity that has the effect you're looking for. Much easier to hit too. Below the eyebrow above the upper lip.

The only time you want to target anything else is in a switch shoot with a profile shot just behind the ear. I wouldn't suggest that unless your using a sniper rifle anyhow.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:01:20 AM EDT
Handgun Stopping Power: A Definitive Study, by Marshall and Sanow.

It may not be perfect, but it makes a good read.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:06:22 AM EDT
Don't forget Platt & Mattox in the Miami Dade FBI fiasco. One sustained several FATAL wounds and still took a few agents along with him. A motivated bad guy will keep fighting! On the other hand, someone with the perception that they will die if they get shot will often cease hostilities after a non-fatal wound. Remember, 85% of people shot with handguns LIVE. Only 15% die. The "one shot stop" works on TV, but rarely in real life. I'm sure everyone has seen a deer with it's heart completely destroyed that still managed to run 100 yards or so. A scumbag with a knife is no different. Well, the deer tastes better!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:00:48 AM EDT
My car plates say it all....DBL TAPP!!!!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:57:58 AM EDT
Yeah with that miami bank robbery shootout didn't the 9mm stop 3" directly in front of the heart?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:29:16 AM EDT
All,

Everyone has a pretty interesting theory on stopping a bad guy with a handgun.

Some have listed the Mozambique (2 in the chest, followed by 1 in the head) method; others prefer a double tap. There are so many methods out there - which is "the correct way?"

My answer: there isn't a correct way. Shoot until your target stops fighting you. Incapacitate his ass. Take the fight out of him. Whether it's three, four, or even a full mag...keep shooting - until he's on the ground, and not moving.

Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:22:39 AM EDT
Use a claymore!!!
AIRBORNE!!!!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:23:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:
[The only time you want to target anything else is in a switch shoot with a profile shot just behind the ear. I wouldn't suggest that unless your using a sniper rifle anyhow.



Okay, what's a "switch shoot"?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:08:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
so it is possible for a handgun round to accomplice this, thats good too hear.
What gun and caliber was used in that shooting ARgon



Model 19 S&W, Federal 125 grain.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:23:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:14:52 PM EDT
I would like to add that in the case of my girlfirend, I told her long ago to shoot until the slide locks, and check the assailant while reloading. Either way the prosecutor is gonna turn it on you, better tried by 12 than carried by 6.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:42:27 PM EDT
a cop told me he shot a guy on meth 13 times and the guy was still standing.

I watched the cop shoot, and he consistently hit center of mass.

I don't know what caliber he used.
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