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Posted: 4/1/2002 5:32:58 PM EDT
Let's say you're an operator in Afghanistan. You and your squad are on recon high in the mountains, make contact with Taliban forces and are quickly outnumbered and surrounded just as a violent storm hits. The storm stalls the enemy advance and allows you to hold your position. Unfortunately, it also means that insertion of additional friendlies or extraction is also off the table for now. There are a few US casualties (injured not dead), but the Taliban suffers a staggering number of KIA's due to your teams' marksmanship and discipline.

You're pinned down for a day or two, but promised air support, resupply and/or evacuation when the storm clears. As the storm begins to clear, and you are holding off the enemy, someone gets a lucky shot and nails your M4 putting it out of action. For the purposes of this discussion, no parts are reusable for parts on a donor rifle due to damage. You desparately need a rifle to hold off for the remaining few hours (maybe up to a day?) so a chopper and some gunships can get up to you.

Earlier in the battle, you had to pull your wounded CIA operative behind cover. In the same time period, two more of your guys were hit in the same general area. All three dropped their weapons. The CIA guy dropped an AK47. Another dropped a fully tricked out M4 with SIR, pop up iron sights, and an Aimpoint (or an Eotech, you choose if it is of any consequence). The third dropped a fixed A2 carry handle M4 (no optics) with RAS built for him because he preferred it over flattops.

You can see all three rifles. They all have mags in them (don't know remaining round count, but you have an equal number of reloads for each) and the M4's have the ejection port covers closed. They are all partially buried in sand and snow. They have been there for 36 hours and have seen wide temperature fluctuations.

Before the storm breaks, you have one opportunity to run from cover, grab a rifle and return. You have to decide which rifle you will grab before you make your move. They are all in generally the same location, so that is not a consideration. But keep in mind that you might need to pop a fresh magazine in there immediately upon getting back behind cover to engage the enemy. No time for cleaning. You're very well trained with both weapons, so that is not a factor.

Which rifle do you grab and why? If there are factors that would influence your decision but I haven't mentioned, please mention them for the purposes of discussion. But that doesn't absolve you making this decision right now.

The weather is clearing and you have 3 rounds left for your pistol. The enemy is getting ready to move. If you don't hold off this assault your family is going to hear about you getting executed on the six o'clock news. If you can get to a rifle, you stand a very good chance of defending your position until rescue.

So, what do you do?
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 5:47:45 PM EDT
I'm going for the Ak.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:04:08 PM EDT
Whatever I can get to easier and have more ammo for. If I can get more M16 ammo and mags I'm going for the M4, If I can only have what is left in the AK and that's it I have more chance of extra ammo for the M4.

If you're just asking which is more reliable the M4 or AK? Well since they are both burried in the sand/snow, I may opt for the AK, but only if I had some ammo. What good is an AK with no ammo??
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:04:53 PM EDT
Whatever is closest...

Now, assuming all are about the same distance I would go for the Ak in this instance.

Why??? I'll explain...

Now, i'm not a ballistics expert (yet, LOL) but I do recall reading info about possible problems with short barrel .223 rifles.

Supposedly, the ammo M193 or M855 needs a certain velocity to fragment properly.


Now, If you said a 20" HBAR that would be my first choice.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:16:44 PM EDT
ak, (i know it will work)also the rag that dropped it will be lying close and i can get ammo off him!

but then i am an operator so i can carry a couple piddley 6lb rifles right?

give me one of each just for fun.
when my guys are getting shot chances are there is something cool like a SAW or a M60 lying around
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:29:20 PM EDT
Doh! Your CIA guy dropped the AK and has just as many reloads for it as you have for the M4's.

You can only pick one.

I've never done a poll before. Maybe now's a good time to add one.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:30:28 PM EDT
M4, with the fixed handle. Loose the optics.
Then find the damned radio, and call in some CAS, damn zippy.

Meplat-
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:33:37 PM EDT
You have waaayyy to much time on your hands.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:57:08 PM EDT
well on the news that had some marine who was saying they are always having too clean there rifles because of all the sand so a M4 buried would probably jam I think I will go with the AK.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 6:59:56 PM EDT
AK47.

This appears to be a defensive situation with low visibility. The sound of the AK will conceal my identity and location by not sounding like an . 223 making it more difficult for the enemy to id my position unless they acquire me visually.

With close quarter shoot and move, I think the AK would put down whoever I encountered quickly.

If the visibility seems to be improving and I have a good FOV, I would go for the M4 with SIR.


--LS
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 7:31:49 PM EDT
M4 fixed A2 carry handle and no optics

The M4 is a lighter weapon than the AK so if I had to change my position it would save me some weight caring the M4. Fixed sites all the way, given that they were dropped I don’t know what condition the scope could be in, plus I’m going to be holding a position from hostels invading from any direction so I need to keep all eyes open and can’t concentrate on a single place for two long.

The AK is a reliable and accurate weapon as well, but I don’t think I would be getting any ammo from the enemies because they will be falling away from my position so their ammo will not be in my reach. I’m going to get .223 in any resupply by our forces, so best be prepared for it.

With all that said I am no expert and could be totally off
- Sulaco
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 7:42:22 PM EDT
The AK!

I have two AR-15's and two AK's - one in 7.62 X 39 and one in 5.56 X 45. The only one that has never malfunctioned is the 7.62 X 39 AK. It is also the one with the highest round count.

docmac86
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 7:55:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2002 9:57:00 PM EDT by LngBchAR15]
I've never owned an AK and I've never fired one. But in this situation, I would go with AK47. First being the ammo. If I take down more Al Qaeda guys, I can always steal their ammo. As long as enemy guys are there, and if I continue taking them down one by one, I have unlimited supply of ammo. (Assuming you can safely approach the dead bodies and remove mags from their ammo pouch) If the gun breaks down, I can always get replacement parts from recovered guns or simply swap it for another. Also, being in an enermy territory, leaving .223 casings behind is not cool. Thats like yelling to them "AMERICANS WERE HERE." Second being the noise signature. I'm sure it doesn't take too long to be able to tell the difference between M4/M16 noise and AK47 noise.
Shooting AK47 will raise less suspicion and attention than shooting M4/M16. I'll have other guys cause a diversion with M4 and when the gunfight errupts, I'll hide somewhere far away from my team members and take those terrorist bastards one by one with the AK. Next is tolerance issue. This is just my guess but AK47 might be more tolerant of harsh weather conditions and bad batch of ammo.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 8:17:12 PM EDT
WhutRU nuts? Kalash.
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 8:22:31 PM EDT
There's no plausible reason why I could only grab one, unless I had only one arm. So I'd grab two, one with each. I'd grab the AK and the second M4.

I won't be pinned down further than that.

CJ

Link Posted: 4/1/2002 9:33:03 PM EDT
I don't want to admit it but I would go for the Ak. In that environment it would probably be best. You said it is clearing, but regardless the AR will have to be cleaned before it can be fired. Also with the distance involved with any fire fight I think the AK is the perfect spray and pray weapon and if it is SUB 3MOA so much the better. The soviets are a CHARGING ARMY, they were given a rifle to serve that purpose. The are tought to advance in droves. There weapons were not accurate by the AR standards but a little spread helps lower the odds of a miss. Yep, AK47.

Ben
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 9:38:59 PM EDT
so far I am the only one goin with the m4. my reason for this is I have seen an m4a1 put through through as much as most aks and still fire full auto. one of the thing is that the mags were in there and the dust cover was closed which would have gone a long way to seel the chamber. I am more familiar with a m4 than I am with an ak. the m4 is still an effective weapon even out to distance not as far as a 16 or a 20 inch barrel but still quite effective. I find the comp easier to opperate quickly than irons and much better in the twilight hours. along with the aimpoint and the free floated(assuming it is a military version) front hand guard you would be able to make one shot kills out to a much farther distance than with an ak ( remember almost no one can take a head shot no matter what or how far they are shot with).

the marines said that they were having problems with the sand in there weapons doesn't mean they are having jams it just means that it is getting in there. besides if I run outa ammo for the m4 then I would steal whatever weapon I could procure. remember in order to resupply the ammo for your ak would mean taking the ammo off a dead al-quida\taliban fight. which would mean you would either have to let them get close enough that you could kill them and drag them to you possition or you would have to move through possible hostile fire to retreive ammo or a new rifle. if you get wounded or killed then your buddies will have to come get you.
my suggestion is fight your way to high ground or the best other wise defensive ground and start pickin em off from as far as possible. and keep an keen eye on your ammo. if you run low hope the send in a probe and when they do kill him as close as safely possible and drag his body back. steal his weapon and ammo and use his body as an extra sand bag
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 9:54:20 PM EDT
AK, got to say mine has NEVER jammed.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 8:23:13 AM EDT
i wouldn't need to grab any of them.

i'd simply tell the rag heads that i'm john walker's buddy.

oh yea, then i'd ask them for some hot coco.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 10:43:40 AM EDT
I'm going for the M4A1 with, since it's an option, the EOTech Holosight and BUIS. Once I scoot over and get it back to cover I swap mags for a full one, eyeball the chamber and squirt a bit CLP from my always-present bottle of Breakfree onto the bolt throught the port. Then it's one button ON for the EOTech and get ready to rock.

The Holosight has an auto-off feature so I'm hoping the lithiums can still give a few dozen hours of service. This is a circumstance where rapid and precise fire will mean the difference between life and becoming camel bait. The AK just doesn't fit the bill, sure it'll go bang but who knows were the round is going? The M4 with fixed sights is nice, too, but I hate using someone else's BZO - everyone's are unique and I need every round to count. The EOTech will provide a 1 MOA dot which once zeroed will work for anyone. In the mountains you will need a weapon that can provide accurate fire to short, medium and probably long range. I'll trust the SOPMOD.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 5:45:36 AM EDT
I too will cheat, grab the AK as my main and shoulder the iron sighted M4.
The AK to immediatly protect myself, but if given a chance will clean the M4.


Link Posted: 4/3/2002 11:43:16 AM EDT
I chose the M4 cause i dont know anything about ak's. Alteast if the M4 needed to be cleaned, i know how to tear it down.....
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 12:01:23 PM EDT
Well Dam, it must be my lucky day. As I was about to crawl out of my position to grab one of those rifles I put my hand down to move I felt something buried in the sand. I pulled and out came an M-203 and if that wasn't luck enough right there buried beside it were 5 cases of HE. I think I'm staying right here. Boy am I gonna have some fun now. Not yet I think I'll let them get a little closer.

RATS
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:28:04 PM EDT
when u run out to get a body or a wounded friend u also get his weapon.thus the handle on the M16 the barrell and stock was hooked under his suspenders letting u drag your buddy evenly with one hand while fireing your own weapon.so if i got my buddy neither him or his weapon would be left.without his weapon you would be up a creek cause youd have both hands full and u wouldnt be doin either of u any good .a slight advance by your enemy would put your own loaded weapons in their hands. therefore i think your senario is mute.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:42:02 PM EDT
u go for the ak . when was it cleaned maybe never nowin the enemy who wipes their butt with their hand .u grab a 16 u know when it was cleaned.u pick up a 16 outa the sand u got exterior sand u pick up an ak u got interior sand.picking up a weapon in battle i would go for the 16 knowing that they (have to be cleaned all the time).
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:49:53 PM EDT
Here we have "what-if" imitating real life.

The Operators are picking up rifles and those rifles are AK's.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 2:59:52 PM EDT
I think people are missing something. If my M4 were destroyed, in the heat of battle, I want MY rifle or one identical. I don't think a high level of intellectual decision making is going to happen. You will simply grab what you were trained to grab. I would grab the M4 that most closely resembled my own and restock my mag pouches and go back to business. If it jams, I can deal with that. If supply is a way off, I'm going to go semi and pick my shots. In this situation, the M4, even with it's short barrel is still much better than an AK. However, if I was more familiar with an AK and my M4 was not my primary weapon, I might grab the AK.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:00:10 PM EDT
what we have here is real life imitating (what if)
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 3:52:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 4:00:45 PM EDT
well if the ak is so popular and so dependable why is this web site not called AK47. i dont want a spray and pray,i want a reach out and touch someone.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 4:20:10 PM EDT
if i lost 59% of my squad grabbing an ak i could count on the other 20% to get the job done.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 4:30:19 PM EDT
Given my training, both in the Corps and the guard, and my home fun rifle, all of which is with a iron sighted M16/AR15-A2, I would grab the iron sighted M4.
You have to go with what you know.
If I was some special forces extra training super school guy, and I knew M4s with optics better, I would go with that.
Link Posted: 4/3/2002 4:42:17 PM EDT
I'd have to go with the A2 sighted M2. I wouldn't have one bit of a problem picking up an M14 or M4 that had just fallen in the sand and trusting my life to it. Those that would be hesitant to do so, in my opinion aren't very familiar with the weapon's capabilities and are relying more on heresay than experience.

If you've only got enough time to run out and grab one weapon, how would you have enough time to strip CIA-man of his AK mags and ammo, too? That in itself would take a bit of time.

As a soldier, I would be much more familiar with the M4 and could use mags and ammunition from my fellow soldiers.

Why die with an empty AK?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:42:49 PM EDT
The AR/M-16A2 got a bad rep somehow.... I never had any trouble with mine in the sand and crap...... but the AK's that we picked up never jammed either...(and we had lots of fun emptying them too)....
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:00:34 AM EDT
in my experience the ar and m16 systems are just as accurate as the ak series in everything from mudd to water to ice and snow. I take my ar with me on every camping trip I go on and it has gone throug all of it. ice snow mudd rain, what ever you can think of with only one problem, it ran out of ammo . from my experience the opperator will malfunction way befor the rifle. plus its accurate as hell. the ak holds no advantage in my mind.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 1:06:13 AM EDT
This is a no brainer.As much as I like my AR's you have to go with the Kalashnikov.We can go back and forth about the reliability of the M16 family but when was the last time you saw a discussion about the reliability of the AK?
There is no discussion about it.It's the most reliable weapon out there,PERIOD
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 2:18:28 AM EDT
Definitely the M-4 with the fixed carrying handle.

1. All optics are set-up for the original operator, not me. With the A-2 sights I can battle sight zero and atleast be close enough to put the rounds on target.

2. With the poor visibility, the sound of the AK being fired could get you shot by a friendly. CIA's aren't that smart all the time.

3. With the 2 M'4's being there with mags inserted, I would already have twice the ammo as with the AK.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 5:09:48 AM EDT
Am I the only person who has ever had an AK type rifle jam?

They may indeed be more reliable than a typical AR, but nowhere near the degree some folks in this thread are making it out to be.

Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:01:12 AM EDT
AK, cause I know no matter when I am stuck fighting it out I wont be cought cleaning my gun or having to clean it in the middle of a battle.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:52:22 AM EDT
Boomer, Nope. Seen, and had quite a few.. Bad ammo, bad mags, and in one case, the chrome plating on the piston corroded through, flaked off, and jammed the piston in the gas cylinder.. "A.K. Stomp" anyone?

Meplat-
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 8:22:15 AM EDT
We have to remember that these rifles have been mud and snow with major temperature changes. Given that I would rather have a sandy M4 than an Ak that has gotten moisture in the gas tube. two thirds of the AK is more reliable than the M-16 issue is one of numbers, your average GI has shot thousands of rounds through an M-16 and never fired an Ak, so he hears that AK's never jam and remembers all three times that his 16 failed to feed, so in his mind the AK is more reliable (remember Ak's never jam in the movies and that is where most people in America get their AK knowledge from) there are many more AR-15's in this country compared to Ak's, so people are familiar with the failures of this weapon, AK's are somewhat exotic to most people and therefor any malfunctions they have are somewhat exotic.
My main point is that until you have had to deal with a nasty Ak (remember you never have to clean them) that has been about in the rain and the crud in the gas tube turns to glue then you have no idea what a POS an AK really is.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:07:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 12:10:43 PM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:39:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
yeah..i guess yer right...probably why only 70-90 million of them got built.





Campy you know better then to feed 's.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:58:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
club.guns.ru/images/video/ak-74m.mpg

yeah..i guess yer right...probably why only 70-90 million of them got built.



Repeat after me----A picture is worth a thousand words!!!
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 1:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:
Am I the only person who has ever had an AK type rifle jam?

They may indeed be more reliable than a typical AR, but nowhere near the degree some folks in this thread are making it out to be.




Tell us about it. Not only have I not seen one "jam" I have never really even heard of one being less than 100% unless it was some bastardized Century gun. Tell us your story.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 2:19:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Tell us about it. Not only have I not seen one "jam" I have never really even heard of one being less than 100% unless it was some bastardized Century gun. Tell us your story.



I have had a Norinco MAK 90 both fail to feed (bolt over) and fail to fully eject (empty case jams bolt open).

I'll easily grant that the AK has a higher degree of reliability than the AR. But as I said, it isn't to the degree that some folks like to suggest. And in my opinion, the superior accuracy, sights, ergonomics, and lighter weight of the AR more than make up for it's slightly lower reliability.

I would have to say that anyone who has never seen or even heard of AK malfunctioning simply does not have very much experience with them. Reports of malfunctions with AKs aren't exactly uncommon on any of the AK boards, either.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 2:58:05 PM EDT

I would have to say that anyone who has never seen or even heard of AK malfunctioning simply does not have very much experience with them. Reports of malfunctions with AKs aren't exactly uncommon on any of the AK boards, either.


True, I dont spend any time on the AK boards. I am VERY familiar with MINE, and those are the ones that count.

After countless bricks of ammo... I just have never had the glint of a problem. The only ones I have read about, we century guns, that had an inherent flaw from sloppy build jobs.

I agree, any rifle platfom can have a malfunction... just always curious to get "real" info on the AK... since I have never seen it happen.

Seen my various AR's have problems, although rarely.... popped primer, fail to extract, bolt over, feed jam, fail to strip round from mag.... etc. And while very rare (and most when I was new to the AR, which yeilds to poor operator/equipment more than the platform) I at least have seen and read MUCH about these problems. Of course, this is an AR site.

I too, much prefer the AR, that's why I am here, and not on the AK boards. But I always love hearing about AK failures, just like I like to hear about Glock failures... simply, because, after more rounds than I can count, I still have never seen one.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:42:04 PM EDT
AK!
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 6:22:31 PM EDT
Guess that because it's my thread I should reply at some point....

I'd be darn tempted to take the AK47, by I've shot a bunch of M16A1's that have been drug all about the Oklahoma sand and have not had a problem with them. Well, the only 2 or so FTF's I've had have come from ammo that was out of spec (i.e., bent at the bottleneck) and loaded by some idiot private behind the firing line. Never had one FTF on something other than a clear ammo issue.

Would an AK have chewed that ammo up? I don't know. But I'd hope that my teammates wouldn't have loaded it in the first place.

Probably in a drag out abuse test the AK47 is more reliable. I dunno.

I've never seen combat, so my opinion means nothing (hey, my range queen AR15's will last 6 months without cleaning and 500 rounds of ammo ) but the answer I most agree with is:


Originally posted by DarkNite:
I'm going for the M4A1 with, since it's an option, the EOTech Holosight and BUIS. Once I scoot over and get it back to cover I swap mags for a full one, eyeball the chamber and squirt a bit CLP from my always-present bottle of Breakfree onto the bolt throught the port. Then it's one button ON for the EOTech and get ready to rock.



Heck, I hadn't even thought of that when I posted the topic! I'm talking about the squirt of CLP -- I had thought about the Aimpoint v. Eotech debate (including the on/off features) and didn't want to bring that into this debate.

But I need to go for the durability of the M4 with A2 fixed CH.

Anyone else?
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