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Posted: 3/27/2002 5:05:12 PM EDT
Quick trip to the fun shop this afternoon to pick up a sling. I noticed an AR on the rack that caught my eye. I look closer. A Post Ban Stoner, M4 barrel, fake birdcage FH, two stage trigger, A2 stock, o carry handle. It was wearing a RAS, with some type of two stage trigger and a flip up rear sight. Price nearing $1600. So what is the deal? I understand the historic value of a Stoner rifle, but this is a post ban model, even with the extras 16 bills seems extreem.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:25:05 PM EDT
The Knight's SR-15 is simply a good postban rifle - nothing more or nothing less.
There is no collector value in these rifles.

While I'm not positive about this I believe it very doubtful that Stoner designed the SR-15 .223 although he certainly designed the SR-25 in .308.

(Eugene Stoner simply didn't like the 5.56mm caliber and, to the best of my knowledge designed only two rifles in that caliber with the first being in 1973 and the last in 1986.)
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 9:47:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
The Knight's SR-15 is simply a good postban rifle - nothing more or nothing less.
There is no collector value in these rifles.

While I'm not positive about this I believe it very doubtful that Stoner designed the SR-15 .223 although he certainly designed the SR-25 in .308.

(Eugene Stoner simply didn't like the 5.56mm caliber and, to the best of my knowledge designed only two rifles in that caliber with the first being in 1973 and the last in 1986.)



Actually, Eugene Stoner did have a hand in the SR-15 design. Eugene Stoner and Reed Knight are the founders of Knight's Armament.

dmuldrew:
Next time you are in the gun shop, look at the SR-15 and any AR-15 side by side. The machine work, fit, and finish of the SR-15 will be far superior. Also, the SR-15 is more accurate than most AR-15's. My SR-15 Match shot a 0.7 MOA @ 100 yards right out of the box. The SR-15 are also somewhat rare, as not many are released to the public. KAC stays busy with military contracts and rarely builds rifles for other customers. I think they are worth the extra money, but that's just my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:49:56 AM EDT
I couldn't tell you anything about them.

But, there were two on gunbroker yesterday at $1300 each with no bids.....

That should tell you something.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:10:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sr15:

Actually, Eugene Stoner did have a hand in the SR-15 design. Eugene Stoner and Reed Knight are the founders of Knight's Armament.




I know Stoner and Knight were in business together and I know that relationship was formed to design and manufacture the SR-25.

Not being argumentative about the SR-15 but how do you know that Stoner had anything to do with the SR-15 ?
He didn't like the caliber and had seldom worked with it in the past. If Stoner followed his past he designed the SR-25 and brought someone else in to design the .223.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:22:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Not being argumentative about the SR-15 but how do you know that Stoner had anything to do with the SR-15 ?



Fair enough.

Here's a couple of sources.


As we understand it, the late Gene Stoner was involved in the development of some of the accessories listed here.


Refering to the Modular Weapons System Components, RIS, and two stage trigger (last two included with SR-15 rifles).

And


The noted designer's [Stoner] last two guns, the 5.56 mm Stoner light machine gun and his 50-caliber SR-50 sniper rifle also have seen the light of existence in the Knight's Armament machine shops.


The Stoner light machine gun is very similar to the SR-15.

Reference:
Lewis, J., and Steele, D., "The Gun Book of Assault Weapons, 5th Edition. Krause Publications, Iola, WI. 2000. pp 40-45.

Another source citing Stoner's involvement with the two stage trigger included with all SR-15 rifles:


One outcome of this partnership was the SR-25 .308 caliber AR-15 type rifle platform. As part of this development program they have a superior two stage trigger for the AR-15.


Refernece:
www.highpowerrifle.com/Stoner.htm

You can also call Brian Fromang at KAC. He should be able to provide more details.

Link Posted: 3/28/2002 11:55:53 AM EDT
sr15,
the reason I'm pursuing this is I'm an old ArmaLite collector and have obviously followed Stoner's work over the years.

I'm 'almost' willing to bet that the 5.56mm light machine gun is in fact the Stoner 86. That's one of the two rifles that I'm certain he designed in 5.56mm. (The other 5.56mm gun was the FARC that was never produced.)

I read an interview about a year ago with one of the old ArmaLite design team members and he stated that Stoner's 86 was likely to go into production. (The Stoner 86 was designed in 1986. Seems he got on a kick for a while with naming his guns for the design year. Another example is the Stoner 62 (7.62) designed in 1962.)

Thanks for the information and I'll probably order the assault weapons book today.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 1:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
I'm 'almost' willing to bet that the 5.56mm light machine gun is in fact the Stoner 86. That's one of the two rifles that I'm certain he designed in 5.56mm. (The other 5.56mm gun was the FARC that was never produced.)



I think you are right. Stoner and Knight also designed the Stoner 96 though, which is a bit different than the S86, and is also considered a light machine gun. The S96 is chambered NATO 5.56mm too.

Assuming this is correct, I need to correct my previous post. Neither the S86 nor the S96 are "very similar to the SR-15", but they do share similar features (quad rail, Modular Weapons System, flat top upper).

So, going back to he original question, I guess this still doesn't prove that Eugene Stoner was directly involved with the SR-15. I'll see if I can come up with more info. You may be right though, Knight (and company) may have just compiled several of Stoners ideas/designes for the SR-15. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Stoner was involved with the SR-15. I think I'll call KAC tomorrow (or after the holliday).


Thanks for the information and I'll probably order the assault weapons book today.


I accidently left out a word in the title of the assault weapons book. It should read "The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons, 5th edition" The ISBN # is 0-87341-778-X. I highley recommend this book. Stoner is mentioned quite often.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 9:14:09 AM EDT
Hey, about the Stoner .223 designs, what about the Stoner 63(A)? didn't he also disign that one?

-Justin
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 9:52:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JTR:
Hey, about the Stoner .223 designs, what about the Stoner 63(A)? didn't he also disign that one?

-Justin



Justin.

Stoner went to Cadillac Gage and designed the Stoner 62 in 7.62 - his preferred caliber.

Cadillac Gage then brought in - I'm certain at Stoner's insistence - James Sullivan and Bob Fremont who designed the Stoner 63 in 5.56mm.

Stoner, Sullivan and Fremont had all been together at ArmaLite. Same story at ArmaLite. Stoner designed the AR-10 in 7.62 and then Sullivan and Fremont designed the AR-15 in 5.56mm.
Stoner designed the AR-16 in 7.62 and Art Miller designed the AR-18 in 5.56mm.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 10:59:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 7:18:51 PM EDT
Stoner had nothing to do with the SR-15 series of rifles. It is simply an AR-15 variant with certain KAC accessories, and in keeping with product lineage / naming conventions, shares the "SR" designation like all other KAC rifles. For example, the 7.62x39 SR-47 was designed just months ago (well after Mr. Stoner's death), however is packaged in / operates on the original principle he engineered.

As far as Stoner's involvement in the RIS: not sure about that one. I've heard Stoner was against using the forearm of the M-16 as a mounting platform (this is pre- free-floating RAS school of thought, remember). Also, my boss's name (Doug Olson) is the only one on the patent, which incidently is dated the same year as Mr. Stoner's death.

5subslr5:
You are 100%. The LMG (light machine gun) is in fact the Stoner 86. The 96 is essentially the 86 with some mods to the stock and trigger group, among other things. Neither of these systems has any real operational similarity or parts compatibility to the SR-15 / -16 series.

Suggested retail price on the SR-15 M4 is $1550.00. CFI Arms had them cheaper, I think.
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 7:08:10 AM EDT
havoc,
thanks much for the information !

Nice to have an occasional "I think......." confirmed.
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 8:47:54 AM EDT
Ok, I can admit it when I'm wrong.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the info.
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