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Posted: 3/27/2002 2:58:01 PM EDT
Alright, here it is, approximately two weeks ago I posted three G3 20rnd magazines on an auction site. The auction ended with a winning bidder, I contacted the winning bidder with payment options and got no response. A week later I recieved a money order. I prepared the package that evening with the intention to send it first thing in the morning, as I was printing out the address I realized something, the person lived in San Clemente, CA, now for legal reasons I don't know if I should send the magazines or not.

Who would be held responsible for the legal end of it? Myself or the winning bidder?

Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:13:55 PM EDT
Return his money ASAP. Those magazines are illegal in Kali, and you would be part of a crime by getting them there.

I don't like the law, but it is there...and you potentially would get in a big heap of trouble.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:32:15 PM EDT
Cash the MO and send him back a note stating that while education is expensive, ignorance can one everything.

Re-sell the mags again.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:43:52 PM EDT
First let me state, I AM NOT A TROLL, now that I have cleared that up.

What Federal Law prohibits me from selling a pre-ban high capacity magazine to someone in California?

I am not required to follow California law unless I am within their borders. If I live in a state where the transfer of a pre-ban is legal and I am in said state when I ship said pre-ban mag, how can they charge me with anything.

I am not advocating doing this, but California laws p1$$ me off, and I don't live there because of them. How can they still affect me elsewhere?

Not looking to start a flame war, just answers.

dave
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:45:14 PM EDT
This is not legal advice, if you want same, contact a local lawyer.

As a non citizen of PRK, the state has NO authority over anyone who is not IN the state. Limited authority over persons who committed crimes INSIDE the state is reflected in extradition of suspects from other states.

It would be like PRK passing a law that no vehicle NOT equipped with PRK mandated smog equipment can be operated anywhere, even outside PRK. You can have a direct oil injector on your tailpipe and you needn't fear prosectution by PRK. They have no jurisdiction over you.

It is illegal to sell or bring in standard cap mags. Translation, if one is HERE and does so, out come the cuffs, either at the scene of the transaction or at the border where the moron brought them across.

Hypothetical, an otherwise unremarkable package sent from outside the state majically breaks open and whoever sees what's inside knows what they are and calls the authorities.

The adressee is up shit creek, but the person who unwisely put their REAL return addy on it, showing that they live in another state, is not under the jurisdiction of PRK.

This is IMHO, of course, and I would return the money order and POST next time that you won't ship where prohibited.

It is NOT a federal issue, so please don't post that the BATF or some other Fed agency has the time or inclination to enforce STATE law, as they have no jurisdiction to do so.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:09:34 PM EDT
thedave and CITADEL are correct. You can't be held accountable to CA laws since you are not within their borders and are not conducting the sale within their borders. The buyer will be held completely legally responsible. I say it's up to you to decide what to do. Most respectable merchants would refuse to sell to him as they don't want to encourage CA's to break the law. You can follow their lead or ignore it but there is no law against shipping them to him.

Feelin' Like A Good Guy: Send him his money back and educate him.

Feelin' Like A Bad Guy: Keep his money and educate him.

Feelin' Like A Dick: Keep his money and don't bother educating him at all.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:23:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:03:32 PM EDT
i'd just send his money back. if he has a problem with it, refer him to one of the many websites that sells magazines but no hicaps to CA and a few other states.

not worth any risk. someone else without issue will buy them soon enough.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:09:13 PM EDT

Feelin' Like A Dick: Keep his money and don't bother educating him at all.




i say you should feel like a dick! he is prob. trying to get away with something. my guess is he knows the laws about it and is trying to get through a loop hole.

Send them to me here in Texas :) i am low on mags anyway. thanks!
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:24:53 PM EDT
First off, you should have anticipated people from banned states trying to buy the mags on an INTERNET auction and stated in the auction who you would not sell the mags to. Now that he has sent you payment, you are now saying you wont sell to him. Maybe he doesnt know the laws? Or maybe he is trying to skirt the law (that's really his fault for living in the PRK). If you dont want to sell him the mags, then send his money order back to him plus add the cost of his postage to you and his cost for the money order. That would only be fair and should keep good will between you two for purposes of feedback for the auction and brotherhood with a fellow gun lover. Do the right thing.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:35:30 PM EDT
SKSGuy,

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack your thread, it is just that these self righteous cali politico's really get my goat with their BS laws.

Thanks guy's for the reply's. I still won't sell any to the PRK as if they live there they have already succumbed to big brother.

dave
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:45:33 PM EDT
Just being the devil's advocate here...

If I can thumb my nose at a piss-poor excuse for a law in another state and not violate any laws that I'm subject to in the process, then it seems like a great way to pass the time.

Once I ascertained beyond any doubt that I was not violating any law by sending high capacity mags to CA, I wouldn't hesitate to do so and a hearty 'F--K YOU' goes to the jackoffs who enacted such a piss-poor, unconstitutional law in the first place.

Sort of like Foghorn Leghorn standing just outside Dawg's chain reach, whacking Dawg on the head with a board, and saying 'AWW, SHUT UP!!'

Just make sure the chain really DOESN'T reach
to you, that's all.

CJ
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 8:17:58 PM EDT
I kinda doubt that the mag police will be x-raying all packages entering PRK. It's his responsibility to know his state laws, not yours. Send the poor guy the mags, he may really need them some day, considering where he lives.

ColtShorty

GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 8:37:05 PM EDT
I would send the mags. Just put them in a regular box, and let him know it's on the way.

It works. Nobody is going to open the package.

Av.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 9:42:18 PM EDT
Although he doesn't live in Kalifornia that doesn't make him exempt from that state's law does it? The Interstate Commerce Act would apply here, right?

Not trying to add fuel the the flame here. I'd hate to see someone get burned over a "X" dollar amount sale.

Maybe it's easy for me to say this since i don't live in the Republic of Kalifornia but i persoannly would send him his MO back and sell the mags to someone else.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 9:51:05 PM EDT
Personally I would send his money order back to him uncashed. I would not add his postage or his cost for the MO as someone suggested, I would add a note stating it is illegal for him to buy these and thank you for wasting my time.

You would not get into trouble for sending them to him though. It is his responsibility to know HIS state laws, it is your responsibility to know YOUR state laws.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 1:13:06 AM EDT
I would first email him and ask him if he wants it shipped to a friend in another state. Also I would explain to him why you would rather do that. If he does not like that idea send the money order back uncashed.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:46:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 1:29:32 PM EDT by RWP]
Sixgun has the right idea. Just another point of view: The Internet has taken a lot of heat for being the "pipeline" for illegal gun sales. Most enthusiasts and collectors have been diligent in avoiding "illegal" Internet transactions. It would only take a couple of examples like this to get the crazies going again.

Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:28:40 AM EDT
Just take the mags apart and mail them to him as replacement parts. Ship the parts in 2 different boxes and advise him the parts can only be used on existing mags. You are covered!!!!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:41:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 8:46:05 AM EDT by bkss67]
The Ranger is correct....Just take them apart so that they are no longer high capacity feeding devices. Make sure to send a note along with the mag bodies saying that these are SOLD AS REPLACEMENT PARTS ONLY and you should be good.

*This brings up the whole issue about being able to buy and possess POST BAN hi-caps as replacement parts....but thats a whole other thread.....
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:43:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ranger1bob:
Just take the mags apart and mail them to him as replacement parts. Ship the parts in 2 different boxes and advise him the parts can only be used on existing mags. You are covered!!!!



Ranger1Bob,
That is the most intelligent suggestion I've read so far. Wish I had thought of it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:13:41 AM EDT
Hi Seth.

No, the "Commerce Clause" is a federal tool to get its federal law hooks into local matters by claiming it can regulate interstate commerce. It dosn't work the other way around, we are talking about a state law that the state wants to enforce.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:25:28 AM EDT
I can't believe that I have heard some of you advocating the theft of some poor SOB's money. I win a bid, I send you the money you best goddamn well send the merchandise or return my money with an explanation as to why you cannot complete the sale. If, as in this case, there is the potential of breaking the law, return the money, re-list the item with the caveat that you do not ship to xxx areas'.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:37:03 AM EDT
Send the mags and let him worry about it. All these "cannot ship to CA" statements kill me.

The seller isn't going to jail for sending a hi-cap mag to CA. They guy that lives there is.


These comments that state "keep the money and send no product" are the kind of guys that ruin internet sales. If you keep the money and the product, you deserve to have your butt kicked.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:40:31 AM EDT
Wouldn't it be mailfraud if you sent the guy the mags thru the USPS ? If so there's a felony you could be charged with. Of course you could avoid that by sending it UPS.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:57:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 9:57:59 AM EDT by Dukota]
What if you send the guy the mags and he goes on a shooting rampage. THe cops go to his house and search it, including his computer and find the record of your transaction. Could there be a possibility that they could somehow hold you liable. I doubt it but there is always the chance. I would do as the others suggested and either ship to someone else not in PRK or send him his money back with a not as to why you cannot sell to him. DON't rip him off.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:06:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Just being the devil's advocate here...

If I can thumb my nose at a piss-poor excuse for a law in another state and not violate any laws that I'm subject to in the process, then it seems like a great way to pass the time.

Once I ascertained beyond any doubt that I was not violating any law by sending high capacity mags to CA, I wouldn't hesitate to do so and a hearty 'F--K YOU' goes to the jackoffs who enacted such a piss-poor, unconstitutional law in the first place.

Sort of like Foghorn Leghorn standing just outside Dawg's chain reach, whacking Dawg on the head with a board, and saying 'AWW, SHUT UP!!'

Just make sure the chain really DOESN'T reach
to you, that's all.

CJ



Just want to say a hearty AMEN to this one! Excellent!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:07:13 AM EDT
OK, now we're off the deep end here.

Mail "fraud" is "fraud" using the mail. It's neither fraud nor even illegal to mail magazines, it's illegal IN PRK to bring them into PRK. You are confusing federal and state authority.

A better example of mail fraud is recieving a money order, cashing it, and never delivering the merch, if you used the mail in any way to commit that crime.

The cops searching the house to blame you because you sold him the mags scenario is VERY far fetched, mainly because IT'S NOT ILLEGAL FOR YOU TO SEND THEM< IT'S ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO RECIEVE THEM.

Civil liability? As in the family suing you for helping him make the massacre possible? Maybe, but so far gun makers have been doing very well against that claim.

Let's not make this any more complicated than it already is.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 1:06:09 PM EDT
I've decided to just ship the damn things UPS. According to the republic of CA, anyone who owns a high-cap mag is automatically a muderous felon, jesus, didn't you know that? ;)

Thanks for the input people!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 1:19:47 PM EDT
I don't see why an individual would be expected to know the laws in another state. Turn your cap around backwards and pretend to be a normal (ignorant) citizen.

Don't send anything saying the transaction is illegal if you are going to ship the mags. That would not be wise.
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