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Posted: 3/27/2002 10:56:37 AM EDT
I know the benefits of getting a CCW. Is there any reason I should NOT get one? I have been considering this for at least a year and don't know the down side of submitting to what is essentially a backdoor registration. We fight registration but encourage CCW licensing. Does this make sense? Am I just paranoid?

I just want to hear the pros and cons before I submit my fingerprints and make myself known as a gun owner.

TIA
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:06:59 AM EDT
If you wanted to be annonymous as a gunowner u shouldn't be posting here IMHO.

The only thing they'll know is that your a CHL holder. Here in TX, they don't know what you have (so it's not back-door registration) just that you have a right to carry & while I'd prefer a Vermont type law over what we've got beats nothin.

Besides nowdays you have to give a thumb print to get a driver's license (and SSN#) or cash a payroll check here in the Lone Star state.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:18:33 AM EDT
Alaska seems to be going in the other direction in some respects. I have never had to give a fingerprint for anything and here it is now illegal to put a SSN# on a drivers license.

I don't see posting here as a real threat. I own nothing illegal (except perhaps my drivers licese with an SSN on it - mine hasn't expired since the law passed ), I do nothing illegal, and anyone can post here and lie or tell the truth. Perhaps in reality, my gun collection consists of BB guns. If it is a threat, at least I do not give my fingerprints to post here, do not have my name listed, and do not use an ISP that has any of that information either .

Thanks for the input. Any other ideas?
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:23:58 AM EDT
No SSN on the drivers licence? Wow!

Here in IL we just got a new type of D/L with a bar code and magnetic stripe on the back. That way they have all your info on the front of the card and on the back in the stripe.

Av.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:35:00 AM EDT
I rarely have a need to carry on my person, although I do travel a lot and keep a car gun. I keep a CCW in Georgia primarily because it is a substitute for the Brady check in this state. No individual calls to feds;and lets me buy at gun shows or when "the system is down" if I find an addition to my collection.

There is no additional information shared other than that I probably am a gun owner. If someone goes through multiple background checks in a year, I suspect they would have a higher profile, regardless of the laws forbidding retention of data.

Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:04:04 PM EDT
If you belong to the NRA, have ever subscribed to any gun magazine, bought a firearm through an FFL, or probably even written to your congressman/senator about RKBA, the damn government already has you on a list.

Do you really think getting a CCW permit is suddenly going to bring you to their attention? The attention it might just get is the stinking politicians who see thousands of CCW holders as a voting block that could turn an election. If there's enough of us it might just make a couple of the belly crawling slime-moulds think twice about the next piece of crap they want to shove down our throats.

Rant mode off - I really have to be careful when I get on the subject of politicians.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:17:46 PM EDT
Well here is how I look at it. In Washington you can get a concealed permit without even actually owning a gun. And when you apply for the permit it doesn't ask which gun you will be carrying. I know some states require (like a pilots license in some cases) that you be certified with each of your specific carry guns and that you can only carry those guns you are certified with... Washington is not that way.

So in essence it's not much different than getting a drivers license. Just because you have one does not prove that you own a gun nor does it tell anyone what kind of gun you do own. So I don't really see it as a registration. Just my $0.02.... I say get one... the benefits far outweigh the downside. I've had mine for two years.... just stopped at a roadside accident last night packing heat. A bunch of troopers showed up and it was no big deal. They never even knew. And here in Washington when you are stopped you are not required to notify the officer that you are carrying.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:29:19 PM EDT
Thanks for the input. I have been wanting to get one for a long time and really the only thing stopping me has been the fingerprints (and right now, lack of cash). I can't really explain why, I am not as paranoid as I seem to be in this thread. Fingerprinting is also why I have not tried to buy class 3. I really don't know why it bugs me this much... it just does.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
No SSN on the drivers licence? Wow!

Here in IL we just got a new type of D/L with a bar code and magnetic stripe on the back. That way they have all your info on the front of the card and on the back in the stripe.

Av.



In VA you have the option to get a DL w/o printing the SSN on it
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:51:49 PM EDT
Didn't a federal law recently pass that outlaws putting SSN on drivers licenses ?

I do know for a fact that it is illegal for ANYONE except an imployer to force you to give them your ssn. Anyone can ask for it, but employers are the only ones who you have to give it too.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:03:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 2:09:16 PM EDT by Lazyshooter]
A finger print on a driver's license is bull$--!
Even a finger print to get a CCW or the Full auto stuff would only be ok with me if, after they found out you had a clean record, they by law, sent you back your original finger print card and any copies "they" may have made and purged the computer system of any trace of it.

Those people actively involved in trying to get CCW legal in states should definately make sure all finger print records get destroyed and that if they aren't, they can't be used against you in court.

No doubt the driver's license and CCW license pictures taken in Illinois and other states (now with a digital camera), will be used for the purpose of facial recognition like they did at the Super Bowl a year or so ago.

Big Brother is watching!
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:18:31 PM EDT
Assuming the costs are reasonable, I can't think of any reason not to get one, even if you don't carry regularly or frequently.

One advantage that many people don't think of is the general tendency of governments to eliminate certian rights over a period of time by denying new licenses, while doing nothing about the existing ones. For example, I can easily foresee a state deciding to impose stricter limits on new CCW permits without applying those standards to renewals of existing permits. Another example would be the hunting license situation here in VA. Prior to the early-eighties (I think) there was no required hunter ed. class for a hunting license. Under current law, anyone who has never held a VA hunting license must provide proof of some sort of hunter safety instruction before they get a license. The people with licenses issued before the law changed were not affected.

The long and short of it is; if cost and hassle are minimal, get the permit whether you think you need it now or not.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:11:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:16:13 PM EDT
I'm not sure of the laws in your state, but I will tell you the benefits as I see them in my state.

There is no specifications regarding what guns I can or will carry. As long as the weapon is concealed, I can carry a different gun every day of the week if I want. The only limitation placed on me specifically on the card is that I may not carry under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Benefits;

No NICS check,ever!!!

I can carry if I want to. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But it feels good to be able to when I want to. More importantly, my wife can carry (with her permit) when she wants to.

I can throw a dozen guns (loaded or not) and 500 rounds of ammo in the cab of the truck and go to the range without breaking God only knows how many laws by doing so.

I am counted as one more voter that has not killed anyone lately and would be very pissed if my state legislators started passing laws that restrict carry permits in Iowa.

The fact that my wife can carry on the road or when she goes to the "Big City" gives us both peace of mind that I cannot express adequitely. The other three benefits are pretty cool, too.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:51:49 PM EDT
I wish they would put a fingerprint requirement on Driver's Licenses and as for a CCW permit I was one of the first in line in Oklahoma. I believe it is a felony in Oklahoma to carry a concealed, loaded weapon in your car. I want to carry without fear of breaking the law and I want to carry my gun on my person concealed whenever I think it is prudent and not in violation of the law.

Unless you were born out of a hospital, have no SS number, never went to school, don't have insurance of any kind, etc. you can't be "invisible" to 'big brother'. You can only be less visible and in today's world that is way out in the open as far a privacy is concerned.

I would get one in a second if I were you.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:33:02 PM EDT
They have found backdoor ways to get SSNs on just about everything. Here in AZ now you have to give it up to get a license because if you are a "deadbeat dad" and owe child support, they won't give you a license (driving, hunting, etc.) And they track deadbeat dads with SSNs. So to track this problem we all must sacrifice. "For the children" for chrissakes.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:39:07 PM EDT
When funds are available, get it. It is always better to have and not to need, then to need and not to have.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:40:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Didn't a federal law recently pass that outlaws putting SSN on drivers licenses ?

I do know for a fact that it is illegal for ANYONE except an imployer to force you to give them your ssn. Anyone can ask for it, but employers are the only ones who you have to give it too.

Try getting a car loan without giving it. Maybe you can afford to pay cash for a car, but most of us can't.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:28:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Didn't a federal law recently pass that outlaws putting SSN on drivers licenses ?

I do know for a fact that it is illegal for ANYONE except an imployer to force you to give them your ssn. Anyone can ask for it, but employers are the only ones who you have to give it too.



It is possible that the law was federal - I never heard the specifics of it.

I suppose no one could force you to give you SSN - including employers - you can choose not to work there. If you work odd jobs for cash at less than $1300 per employer per year they have no need for your SSN. As far as needing it for a car loan, you can always buy ummmm budget transportation for cash. In short, you can get along without it but it will be difficult.

Thanks again for the input. When I have the spare cash and spare time I will go get my CCW.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:42:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
They have found backdoor ways to get SSNs on just about everything. Here in AZ now you have to give it up to get a license because if you are a "deadbeat dad" and owe child support, they won't give you a license (driving, hunting, etc.) And they track deadbeat dads with SSNs. So to track this problem we all must sacrifice. "For the children" for chrissakes.



I see no problem with tracking deadbeat dads through their ssn. If the bastard cant afford to take care of his responsibilities, he don't need to be cruising around in his new SUV, or out on hunting/fishing weekends with the guys. He needs to be working 2 or 3 jobs to keep up with his "manhood". What are you sacrificing, they already have a record of your ssn, take a deep breath, and exhale slowly.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 12:31:06 AM EDT
Take this for what it's worth--my opinion. I AM a CCW holder. I have had one for almost 2.5 years. I initially got one because I guess I wanted to"play by the rules". In the time since, my feeling about CCW has changed. First, one of the main advantages of carrying concealed is that nobody else has to know, however--here in Arizona, failing to disclose that you are carrying and a CCW holder to law-enforcement in ANY encounter can get your CCW suspended or revoked.

Second, and I will reference a Supreme Court ruling--

Supreme Court decision: The U.S. Supreme Court broadly and unequivocally held that requiring licensing or registration of any constitutional right is itself unconstitutional. --Follett vs. Town of McCormick, S.C., 321 U.S. 573 [1944]

Now many will happily chime in that concealed carry is not enumerated in the second, but ANY infringement of the RKBA is an infringement, period.

Had I to do it all over again, I would NOT have gotten my CCW. I carry every day, everywhere, and would do so even if I had no CCW permit.

There you go, my 2 cents.

"...Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." - Patrick Henry, June 5, 1788
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