Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 3/26/2002 8:15:32 PM EDT
Planning on adding a Remington 700P .308 to the collection and am having a tough time deciding on optics.
I looked at the new Leupold Vari-XIII 3.5-10X 40mm Matte M3 Illuminated (30mm Tube) (Mil-Dot) and the Vari-XIII 3.5-10X 40mm Matte M1 Illuminated (30mm Tube) (Mil-Dot).
M3 has 1/2-MOA windage and 1-MOA elevation clicks with bullet drop compensator marks and the M1 has oversized adjustment knobs and elevation adjustments in 1/4-MOA but no bullet drop compensator marks.
I would use the rifle for multi-role functions including trying out long range matches at the local gun club. The mil-dot feature would be helpful for field use.
Any opinions?

Link Posted: 3/26/2002 8:28:50 PM EDT
If I remember correctly, someone told me that Leupold is moving the position of the 'light' in the scopes you mentioned.
And, I've seen the 'closeout' banner next to the illuminated reticle Leupolds in some flyers I get.
You may want to contact Leupold and inquire.

Good choices, though.
Link Posted: 3/26/2002 8:54:49 PM EDT
I have the M1 Illuminated on my 700 and it is great, even at 1000 yards. But unless you are going shooting during twilight or darker, save some money and get the M1 without illumination. I really like the large, easily adjustable knobs on the M1. And at really long distance the 1/4 moa clicks are an advantage.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:08:22 AM EDT
I put a M1 on my 700 VS, I really like it.


I also put a M3 on my M1A



GIB
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:50:34 AM EDT
I like the Leupold luminated myself. Great scope but steep price.

Have you thought about the Tasco Super Sniper Scope? They are at SWFA and are at 299.99. I have a 16x42 and it is clear and crisp. Lifetime warranty and they are made in Japan, not Taiwan.

If you have the money then by all means go with the Leupold.

max

Just a suggestion.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:37:48 AM EDT
Snowball,
I have the 3.5-10LRM3 on my tac. rifle,and love the thing.
The 1MOA elevation adjustments don't become a pain untill you get past 600m,and even then you can adjust your hold to compensate once you get used to it.
The best part is being able to go from a 200m Target to a 700m Target with under a full turn of the knob,and you don't have to count horizontal stadia lines on the turret,or forget where it is you are at,when breaking the rifle out of the case.
The biggest pain is the set screws that lock the cam down are prone to stripping or coming loose.There is a cure offered in the Brownells catalog,and it works,forgive me I forget the name of the maker,but they are modified set screws that bite into the aluminum turret under the cam.
I have a couple of M1's on other rifles,and dearly love them,but they don't have the versatility of the M3 in my opinion.
Definately get the Mil-Dot reticle,and get a mil-dot master while you are at it,it saves lots of time from the learning curve.
Hope this helps!
S-28
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:42:26 AM EDT
GI Brat,
I recognize the throw levers on that M1A...
How do you like the mount?
Does it stay put?
Been kicking around the idea of another M1A,and if a good mount were to be had and all,well,it would just be another excuse.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 9:22:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By S-28:
GI Brat,
I recognize the throw levers on that M1A...
How do you like the mount?
Does it stay put?
Been kicking around the idea of another M1A,and if a good mount were to be had and all,well,it would just be another excuse.



With the combination of the A.R.M.S. #18, 19A & 21 STANAG Rings, the scope goes nowhere with re-peat zero every time.
GIB
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:11:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:11:41 PM EDT
Thanks to everyone for their opinions. This is what a forum should be!
No flames and honest answers. I really appreciate all the replies.
I think I need to take a harder look at the M1 as the 1/4-MOA just seems to make more sense. The illuminated reticule would be handy for those early morning coyotes.

S-28,… What the heck is a a mil-dot master???
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:13:10 PM EDT
I've got the M3 and like it for the above reasons (one-turn adjustment), although I haven't had a chance to truly wring it out yet.

Mil-Dot Master is a slide rule thingamabob for using mil-dots to estimate range so you don't have to calculate it yourself. I haven't tried one yet but have read a lot of good things.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:36:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 7:36:53 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Here's my setup:

PSS .308, Harris "s" bipod, Turner Saddlery Hathcock sling, Badger Ordnance rings and base, Springfield Armory 4-14x56 3rd Generation Illuminated Government reticle.

The Government reticle is calibrated with a bullet drop compensator designed for the 168gr BTHP.

On a really good day (my part), I can put 5 rounds within 1/2" at 100yds. I haven't had much of a chance to shoot very often at longer ranges, so I can't comment there.


Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:24:24 AM EDT
Snowball,
Chairborne Ranger hit the nail on the head.
If you don't like doing mental math,and you have a rough estimate of the size of your target,or an object near it(Closer the better the further out ya get)all you need is to measure in Mil. dot coverage at 10X(Or calibrated magnification setting) and slip the slide and Bingo!a close estimate of actual range.Dial the dope,and hold tight.
Of course wind,mirage,angle,temp,and actual deviation of your rifle from the cams is needed for visceral input.The Mil dot master cuts the "Feel" time needed to get comfy with the dots by a good margin.
Kinda like throwing a baseball.No sights needed after you have thrown a couple thousand at each common range.The slide rule "Knowledge" reinforces your mental feel so you can Mil., guess,and then double check.A laser is great,but becomes a crutch...but we all cheat a little now and again.
Hope this helps.
S-28
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:29:01 AM EDT
The illuminated Leupold 3.5 x 10 has a reputation for being fairly breakable.

The M3 cam is designed for tactical work, if you are only planning trips to the local range, the M1 cam will allow greater precision (at a slower speed)

The mil-dot option allows you to passively determine range to target, again, a tactical tool...not much use on a rnage with known distance targets.

The mil-dot master is a solid, useful product for tactical/UKD shooting who's inventor supports the shooting sports and is simply an all around nice guy...name is Bruce.

If you order a mil-dot master, tell him "medicjim" or Jim Mitchell sent you...I have three of them.

http://www.mildotmaster.com/
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 9:43:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By snowball:
Any opinions?



If you are looking at "high end" scopes, don't forget to look at Nightforce NXS. The PSS-type rifles are big and heavy to begin with, so a giant scope doesn't look "wrong" on it, IMHO. You can get a nice 30mm tube, 56mm objective, 5.5-22x power with all the elevation you'll ever need on a .308 without a canted base.

Their standard reticle is a little faint for field use, although you can illuminate it. The MOA-calibrated reticle is far more intuitive than the mil-dot stuff, there is just one less conversion to worry about. The mildot might be easier to see, but I think mildot range estimation in general sucks: get a laser.

Get some good mounting hardware while you're at it. You can't go wrong with Badger Ordnance.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:15:37 AM EDT
A laser is not passive and will get you killed in some tactical settings. Mil-dot does not suck, but is limited to the use it was conceived for...

I have seen the the nightforce scope mentioned… it is nice. A 50mm objective does reflect a lot of light, so you can leave your signal mirror at home...

Are we talking about a range queen or a real tactical rifle?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:39:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 11:03:53 AM EDT by Maddog50]

Originally Posted By medicjim:
A laser is not passive and will get you killed in some tactical settings. Mil-dot does not suck, but is limited to the use it was conceived for...



No flame intended. I just think the mil-dots are pretty iffy. When you get into long ranges, you have to start worrying about fractions of a mil, and "is it 2/3 mil or 3/4 mil?" Have you ever tried to mil a partially obscured, moving, or camouflaged target? Plus you need to know the size of your target to be accurate.

The MOA-calibrated reticles at least help clear up dealing with the fractions and help eliminate error translating mils to clicks.

I think that for the ranges that a mil-dot is really useful, many experienced shooters can get away with no special tools at all. With a 6" target, you should be able to get a maximum point blank range in the 300-yard neighborhood with a .308 (no holdover at all). Beyond that, your mildot effectiveness decreases dramatically.

If big objectives are a no-no, then what do you use for a spotting scope? If it's that big of a deal, just put a long sunshade and a honeycomb filter over it.

I recognize that lasers are not passive, but when is the last time you saw a "laser detection system" on anything you thought about shooting? I guess you'll just have to range attack helicopters with other methods.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:41:05 AM EDT
Snowball, given that price does not seem to be a concern, let me also suggest U.S. Optics. I have owned many a Leupold and still have a couple. While they are good, the optics in the USO are notably superior when placed side by side with the Leupolds. For a true tactical consider the 10X SN-6 or ST-10 with 44mm ERGO adjustable objective. As MedicJim notes the 50mm is huge and reflects a lot of lot while forcing you to mount your scope higher above the bore.

Some will say that the USO scopes are too expensive. That is a very subjective issue. I have used a lot of scopes over the years, some of them very high end. My future purchases however, will be USO. I also opted for the USO 20 MOA Picatinny rail mount and the USO heavy tactical rings and could not be happier.

Also, add another vote here for the Mil-Dot Master. They are slick and easy to use.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 12:59:09 PM EDT
maddog50.

I think we are talking two different worlds here.. I'm talking about a rifle to be employed from 500-1000 yards out... you sound like you are talking SWAT tactics (less than 300 yards...vs medulla)...
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By medicjim:
maddog50.

I think we are talking two different worlds here.. I'm talking about a rifle to be employed from 500-1000 yards out... you sound like you are talking SWAT tactics (less than 300 yards...vs medulla)...



No... My point is that a mildot reticle will not cut it for range finding on humanoid targets at those distances.

More details to follow, I've got to go now.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 7:39:52 AM EDT

Great feedback on scope options fellas. I just realized I didn't consider what mounts I was going to buy either and this thread has really put me on the right track.
Thanks again.

S-28 & medicjim
The mil-dot master sounds like the way to go.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 9:27:35 AM EDT
I have the M3 Illuminated and its great!
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 10:35:21 PM EDT
snowball -

You need to be real specific with yourself as to what you want your stick to do for you when your looking at dropping substantial $$$ on a piece of glass.

If you're more into "tactical" type shooting, then an "M3" type scope is the way to go. Simple and easy to get on target quickly. Your adjustments will be limited, however. At 600 yards, for example, the best you could probably do elevation-wise is 3" adjustments by using a half click. At 1,000 yards, that would be 5". But the objective is not necessarily to hit the "X", it's to drop the target.

If you're more into "benchrest" shooting, then you'll be better served with a scope with 1/4 or 1/8 MOA adjustments. You'll have the benefit of much more precise adjustments.

I have a Loopy M3LR on my 700P .308 and I love it. The first time I ever shot this setup at 600 yards, I dialed the scope in and hit within 10" of my POA. New gun, new scope, not broken in. I was amazed. It shoots much better now.

And as medicjim and others have said, get a mildot master if you're serious about learning mildots.

Moe
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 11:17:12 PM EDT
I agree the mil dot master is a must. www.mildotmaster.com
Top Top