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Posted: 3/17/2002 8:22:03 PM EDT
Did they change a law or something? A couple of years ago, I could buy .30-06 armor piercing (AP) ammo cheap all day long. Now it's gone up (way up), and everyone is saying it's been banned. What's the story?

1) Can the U.S. military still sell demilled AP components?

2) Can manufacturers make new AP ammo/bullets?

Can someone please give me the story on this? Thanks.

Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:35:57 PM EDT
as far as i know, there are either no more contractors that produce .30 ap for the civilian mkt. or there were never any. i think that the production of actual ap designed ammunition has to be for the military market, and since the .30-06 isn't as popular with the military as it used to be when it was standard infantry issue, the supply just ran out, as all of the ap was only produced for the military, (and like so many things, legal to sell as surplus, but not to make for the public) i think so anyway. just my theory.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:13:05 PM EDT
Hasn't been banned AFAIK, and .30-06 is the only AP legal for civilian consumption. I think the surplus is probably just dried up. We used to get it from CMP mixed in with lots of M2 ball by the caseload, but I haven't seen any come out of CMP for a long time. Who knows, maybe somebody will "find" a warehouse full of it somewhere and flood the market with it cheap.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 11:13:20 AM EDT
If you reload, Widener's was listing .308 pulled black tip AP bullets some time ago.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 12:53:39 PM EDT
I would second the "just ran out" scenario. M-2 ball in general is getting scarce. CMP had to use Federal "civilian" ammo in last year's Garand match. Word around Perry was the M-2 ball was just about gone. I don't know when Uncle Sam quit making it, sometime in the early to mid seventies I would guess.

We picked up 5000 rounds of it and were happy as clams to get it.

Link Posted: 3/18/2002 1:36:20 PM EDT
Clinton happened.

October 99. When ammo has past the age they feel is ok, they used to sell the ammo or the components to surplus people. Now they can't do that anymore and they have to destroy all the ammo.

So, for all military ammo, you can no longer get bullets, powder etc. 30-06, no more AP, tracers, API etc. Once the current supply is gone, its gone.

Same with 50 cal components. AP, API, APIT, Tracers, etc.

I just bought 3k M2 AP bullets.

Link Posted: 3/18/2002 3:00:06 PM EDT
We cant have AP ammo because of Remington and the Ex president. It is not against the law to have AP rifle ammo, You cant have AP pistol ammo. The XP-100 screwed it all up.
GG
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 4:58:30 PM EDT
That, and all the machinegunners buying up (and shooting up) the surplus hasn't made things easier.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 5:32:22 PM EDT
This was printed in the last issue of the "Cheaper than Dirt" flyer:


In October of 1999, the US Government decided that loaded Armor Piercing rounds were something the public should not. So the Feds outlawed making the projectiles... You can own the projectiles; you can load your own ammo, but once these are gone, there will be no more made for sale that the public can buy from the Government.


I was unaware of any such government action in 1999? Was this an executive order or ATF ruling, or what?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, I remeber a few years ago, .30-06 AP bullet heads was available from IMI through a couple US outlets. Does this mean that there will be no such aftermarket (not available from the government) component availability? Any info would be appreciated.

Link Posted: 3/21/2002 6:04:13 PM EDT
The only "people" making AP 30.06 were those "people" that used it as there standard defensive/offensive ammo for the event of battle. Now that we are ruled by governments and they are the ones with the rights "they" have converted to .308 and "they" are the only ones that can economically and legally manufacture it (with the "peoples" tax dollars). Because the .308 can be shot out of a pistol it is illegal for the "people" to posses.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 6:11:06 PM EDT
You can however, still purchase .50 BMG AP, Tracer and AP Incendiary. This is still much more affective and available until the "people" invent a .50 BMG hand gun.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:17:22 PM EDT
You can buy 5.56mm AP. 30/06 is expensive because nobody makes it for the military anymore, hence no volume production. Its basically become a specialty caliber and like the specialty hunting calibers its expensive. You could manufacture 30/06 AP, but nobody is going to bother to do that because the demand just isn't there.

You don't need AP anyway. M2 ball will go right through one side of a Kevlar vest and out the back.


-SS
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:58:21 PM EDT

Anybody have an idea of what the 30-06 AP round can penetrate? I was only able to pick up a few boxes and don't want to waste time experimenting.
I figure I will just "sight-in" a few rounds at 100, 200, 300 yards and save the rest. They don't make 1/4" steel sight-in targets do they
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 9:59:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Anybody have an idea of what the 30-06 AP round can penetrate? I was only able to pick up a few boxes and don't want to waste time experimenting.
I figure I will just "sight-in" a few rounds at 100, 200, 300 yards and save the rest. They don't make 1/4" steel sight-in targets do they



I'm not sure about .30-06, but a friend and I did an experiment a few years ago on 5.56 (.223). M193 ball penetrated 1/4" steel plate (as did 7.62x39 lead core), and ss109 steel core penetrated 3/8" steel plate. I would bet .30-06 lead core would handily penetrate 1/2" steel plate. As for .30-06 armor piercing, I'd like to get some and try it myself.

Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PoliticalScience:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Anybody have an idea of what the 30-06 AP round can penetrate? I was only able to pick up a few boxes and don't want to waste time experimenting.
I figure I will just "sight-in" a few rounds at 100, 200, 300 yards and save the rest. They don't make 1/4" steel sight-in targets do they



I'm not sure about .30-06, but a friend and I did an experiment a few years ago on 5.56 (.223). M193 ball penetrated 1/4" steel plate (as did 7.62x39 lead core), and ss109 steel core penetrated 3/8" steel plate. I would bet .30-06 lead core would handily penetrate 1/2" steel plate. As for .30-06 armor piercing, I'd like to get some and try it myself.




It's been a little while back and my memory is a little faded, but I shot some 30-06 AP through about 3/4" of steel. I imagine the type of steel makes all the difference though.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 2:55:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 5:30:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 5:34:49 AM EDT by 240z]
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:37:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
You can however, still purchase .50 BMG AP, Tracer and AP Incendiary. This is still much more affective and available until the "people" invent a .50 BMG hand gun.



Yes but only until the current supply is sold out. No more will be available to the general public. Thats why some people are buying thousands and thousands of projectiles. Another 5-10 years and they will be worth $1 a piece or more.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:47:40 AM EDT
Southern Shark --

Re: You can buy 5.56mm AP.

Where can 5.56mm AP be purchased? (M855 Ball is just that.)


-- Chuck
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 8:33:20 AM EDT
Several years ago, I bought a 30 cal ammo box of 30.06 AP cheap and we litteraly shot the barrel out on a Rem. with it playing around. I can tell you from experience the 06 will penetrate (completely) the "web" or center support section of railroad track. When fired at the top section (as from above) the penetrator would lodge base flush with the surface of the track. The 06 AP had a better penetration record than the 308.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:06:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 9:07:57 AM EDT by NORTEXED]
Maj. Plasters "Ultimate Sniper" has some interesting data in it. At 100 meters,the results were as follows:


Pine boards Concrete Sand Steel

M-193 22.4" 1.3" 2.5" 1/8"

7.62 Ball 28" 9.5" 16" 3/8"
(5 rnd burst)

06 AP 48" 7" 28" 1"
(single shot)

Kinda makes you reconsider what you cover behind, don't it ;-)
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:27:09 AM EDT
Perhaps Sarah Brady bought it all for her son to hunt with...
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:33:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:55:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 240z:
Try Here:

www.rvow.com/surplus%20bullets.htm
www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/prices.htm
www.gibrass.com/projectiles.html

Not legal in the PRK I believe.

Ray



Thanks.

I wonder if anyone will ever produce aftermarket .30-06 and 50 cal. armor piecing bullets/rounds.

Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:20:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
Southern Shark --

Re: You can buy 5.56mm AP.

Where can 5.56mm AP be purchased? (M855 Ball is just that.)



Its my understanding that "green tip" 5.56mm is AP. I see it for sale at gunshows all the time. Ammoman.com also sales it.

There are 30/06 pistols. I have seen them myself. And there are 5.56mm pistols. But the law has exempted both 30/06 and 5.56mm from the ban. Why? I dunno, but its a good thing.

-SS
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:47:34 AM EDT
5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip, is not armor piercing per BATF definition...

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

SS109/M855 was originally designed for the SAW to penetrate body armor and helmets at long range, not armor.

M995 is a 5.56MM armor piercing (AP) cartridge and it has black tips. Barring state/local restrictions, civilians can buy SS109/M855 but not M995.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip, has been removed from the BATF definition of armor piercing ammunition, and is legal for civilians under federal law though state and local laws may vary.

SS109/M855 and U.S. .30-06 M2 AP is legal in California.

Anything contrary to the above information is rumor, innuendo, and speculation.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:52:33 AM EDT
There already are .50BMG "handguns". IIRC, Maadi-Griffin put out plans for them years ago; if it wasn't them, it was someone else. I've seen pictures of someone's girlfriend firing his.

But there were T/C Contenders in 7.62x39 for years before BATF got a bug up its ass about the Olympic Arms OA93. The BATF just didn't seem to care.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 11:53:59 AM EDT
Well would it be legal to load .308 rounds with 5.56 SS109 steel core bullets in a 30 cal. sabot? I've wondered for years, but never asked. That would create a lot of velocity, and since the SS109 round has steel in the tip, it should penetrate farther, although the weight may not be enough to cause really serious penetration. Does anyone know if this would be legal (.308 loaded with a sabot with a SS109 bullet)?

Link Posted: 3/22/2002 11:56:14 AM EDT
Yep. M855 Ball is just that: ball.

Steel core doesn't make ammo armor piercing.

Interesting that after the ban on steel cored Russian M43 Ball (again, just ball ammo, not AP) that Wolf and others started sending over all lead cored bullets in their 7.62x39m cartridges and these leave much larger (better for the shooter, worse for the target) wounds than the steel cored original versions.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 11:59:41 AM EDT
What's to be illegal? M855 Ball bullets are not AP. It's not illegal to make or use AP bullets, it's illegal for FFLs to sell AP cartridges.

You can load up all the M855 sabots you want, or fit .30 M2 Ball bullets into those same 7.62mm NATO cases.

AP bullets are less effective man killers than ball bullets under most circumstances.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 2:59:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 3:16:53 PM EDT by PoliticalScience]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
What's to be illegal? M855 Ball bullets are not AP. It's not illegal to make or use AP bullets, it's illegal for FFLs to sell AP cartridges.

-- Chuck



I understand that making prohibited AP rounds (7.62x39, .308, etc.) is unlawful by citizens, regardless of whether they're FFLs or not.

As I understand it, if I went out and made a steel core 30 caliber bullet and loaded it into a 7.62x39 case for my personal use, I would be breaking the law (I actually have an old manual on this). That was the root of my concern about using SS109 bullet heads in a sabot, loaded into a 7.62x39 (or other caliber) cartridge.

From the ATF website mentioned previously:



922(a) It shall be unlawful --


(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --


(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary;



Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:40:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PoliticalScience:
I'm not sure about .30-06, but a friend and I did an experiment a few years ago on 5.56 (.223). M193 ball penetrated 1/4" steel plate (as did 7.62x39 lead core), and ss109 steel core penetrated 3/8" steel plate. I would bet .30-06 lead core would handily penetrate 1/2" steel plate. As for .30-06 armor piercing, I'd like to get some and try it myself.


Here's my experience (from 70 yards with an M1903A3):
  • M2 vs. 1/2" mild steel plate . . . M2 wins easily (jacket embedded, penetrator in the next county

  • M2 vs. 1" steel (two 1/2" plates) . . . M2 laughs as it zips through

  • M2 vs. 1-1/2" steel (three 1/2" plates) . . . jacket embedded in plate #1, penetrator lodged halfway through plate #2 and into #3




Soft point hunting ammo made a bigger hole in a single 1/2" piece and a crater with a very large dent when there was another sheet behind it.

On the other hand, I bought some scrap plate 5/16" thick which I thought was mild. A single thickness laughed at my military ball ammo. The M2 gouged the surface but the steel was undefeated! It's highly magnetic and I can't drill the stuff either. It must be made of kryptonite, but it is no match for my plasma cutter.

Anyway, M2 is great fun if you have a good backstop, but I'm gonna miss its availability. [>(]
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:58:20 PM EDT
Here are a couple more pics. This piece (1/2" thick) had a second piece behind it.

The crater with the small hole through was the M2. The jacket and the lead part of the core are embedded and the penetrator is wasn't in the mood for stopping. The crater/dent was a round of ball ammo. Without the second sheet of steel, the crater would have been a hole the same diameter as the crater.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 6:54:25 PM EDT
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