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Posted: 3/16/2002 2:44:14 PM EDT
What do you guys keep in your 223 guns for homedefense I don't want something thats going to keep going and going.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 4:10:37 PM EDT
I did have a 20rnd mag full of Black Hills 50gr V-max, but have decided that since my AR is scoped not use it for home defense.
Also if I did have to use it on someone I do not want the associated stigma from the unenlightend( my local cop/cheif of police is a real Barney Fife) about explaining that it is not an assault weapon and yes it is legal to shoot bad guys with hicap mags in the gun.
I keep my Glock 19 loaded with Speer 124gr +p in the bedroom and that is also my carry load.
I am going to just start keeping my 12ga with #4 heavy field loads in it and that way I will just look like Mr. pheasant hunter using my left over hunting loads.
Its just as effective if more so and hopefully wont have to put up with the gunnut looking to waste someone B.S.

FWIW.

Lee
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 4:29:07 PM EDT
yeah 223 is probably overkill.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 4:38:12 PM EDT
Winchester white box 45 gr. JHP Varmint load rated at 3600 fps...
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 4:43:13 PM EDT
In the close confines of the average dwelling I think you'll find that long guns can be cumbersome to wield. I keep a .40 cal semiautomatic/w night sights next to the bed. However should I want to use my AR I would go with standard M193 ball. The ammo is proven, it works.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 4:53:40 PM EDT
My M4, with Aimpoint, is loaded with 20 rounds of LC XM193, and sleeps next to me every night. Overkill my ass- what the hell is overkill??? Any bastages that enter my home at night are gonna have a bad day!
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:06:23 PM EDT
Always use ear protection when firing your AR indoors.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:54:01 PM EDT
All,

The "best" home defense weapon that I know of (besides 40 attack dogs running throught your home) IS an AR. You won't find a better combo of stopping power AND less worry of overpenetration than the popular pistol calibers.

"What,"you ask? A good 5.56mm hollowpoint (all major manufacturers make this - it's a 40 grain version), will actually EXPLODE in flesh at short ranges. This really makes for great stopping power, as opposed to a slow-traveling (relatively speaking) pistol caliber that plugs up with clothing or tissue.

It also is THE caliber of choice with most major SWAT teams for CQB.

A shorty with a Trijicon Reflex sight, 27 rounds of a good HP, and a Sure Fire 6P will get you through the night.

Again, my two cents.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:56:30 PM EDT
WHAT??????
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:05:20 PM EDT
In some cases, just having people know you have a "evil black rifle" is is the stuff home defense legends are made of.
On the other hand, 68 grain hollow points are cool too.
Still,I like a 12 gauge pump for the indoor stuff.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:07:22 PM EDT
I have to agree that the fast very explosive bullets are the ticket for home defense and not likly to shoot through like a pistol bullet.
Go to OLYs site and they have a link off of their home page that verifies that idea.
I would dearly love to use my AR for home defense and asa truck gun, but not everyone in the Law enforcement and States attortney office thinks like us guys and gals do.
So yes it is politically correct to use my 12ga Benelli for this purpose, but it jsut may save me the hassle of being branded anut looking to blast someone as I said before.
Hey my Benelli is a black gun. Is that evil enough?

Lee
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:15:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nailbender:
I have to agree that the fast very explosive bullets are the ticket for home defense and not likly to shoot through like a pistol bullet.
Go to OLYs site and they have a link off of their home page that verifies that idea.
I would dearly love to use my AR for home defense and asa truck gun, but not everyone in the Law enforcement and States attortney office thinks like us guys and gals do.
So yes it is politically correct to use my 12ga Benelli for this purpose, but it jsut may save me the hassle of being branded anut looking to blast someone as I said before.
Hey my Benelli is a black gun. Is that evil enough?

Lee



I am sure glad I live in a free state like AZ where we dont have to worry about any nutball stuff like this...
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 9:54:36 PM EDT
Greg,
I now keep my Bushy at home stuffed with SS109,but then I have few secondary target constraints living where I do,and no issues of kids in another room,and my 'ol lady is most likely to be with the M590A1 and beside me should the Bushy need to be used in anger.
I also have Critter issues at longer ranges to contend with and like the flexibility.
The SS109 in actual shootings rates at 96% one shot stops,and breaks into 3 parts upon impact.

If you have concerns with over penetration consider some of the lighter bullet loads like the 40gr Federal load that also rates 96% and has much reduced penetration,and fragments easier and earlier.
Don't let anyone tell you a Carbine is not a tool for home defence.Next to a shotgun there is nothing better,or more suited for the job.
Pistols are difficult to hit with in comparison,and under stress more so than a rifle or shotgun.

Work up a defensive plan that puts you between the most likey route of a dirtbag and those you are to defend,have good cover and a phone handy,and draw a line in the sand.

Study local laws,and past use of deadly force by home owners in your area,and get some good training.I would suggest starting with an NRA personal protection course,and then seek more training with folks like Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch,Gunsite etc.
For better info on terminal results from ammo, stop in to Evan Marshalls Board and ask the Guru himself...He will answer,and wont give you any BS or Hype:www.evanmarshall.com
Keep safe!
S-28


Link Posted: 3/16/2002 10:02:08 PM EDT
frankly, i find my .223 firearms unwieldy and bulky for home defense use. not to mention that .223 requires a minimum velocity to achieve maximum fragmenting effect. can't get that as well with the short carbine versions.

no, sir. i'll stick with the shotgun loaded up with 00 buck and a .45 for his and hers.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 10:18:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nailbender:
I did have a 20rnd mag full of Black Hills 50gr V-max, but have decided that since my AR is scoped not use it for home defense.
Also if I did have to use it on someone I do not want the associated stigma from the unenlightend( my local cop/cheif of police is a real Barney Fife) about explaining that it is not an assault weapon and yes it is legal to shoot bad guys with hicap mags in the gun.
I keep my Glock 19 loaded with Speer 124gr +p in the bedroom and that is also my carry load.
I am going to just start keeping my 12ga with #4 heavy field loads in it and that way I will just look like Mr. pheasant hunter using my left over hunting loads.
Its just as effective if more so and hopefully wont have to put up with the gunnut looking to waste someone B.S.

FWIW.

Lee



It doesn't matter what they might "think" it only matters what the laws on the books say. Defend your house with whatever is legal for you to own and you'll be safe. Do you really think you'll have to defend your choice of weapons if you are using them in your own home?

Not likely, but I sympathize with your distrust of the government's position of a citizen's right to defend themself!
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 10:35:43 PM EDT
ARlady,
I hear ya on the velocity thing,but it only comes into play at longer distances,or with short barrels.
Velocity's at distances typical in a cross the hall or living room shot,are still above 2800fps in a 16" shorty using Ball,
and much higher with the lighter loads.
The 40gr V-max I use for Varmints always come apart nicely on Woodchucks out yonder where velocity's are below 2,600fps,and the SS109 bullet I clobbered a yodel dog with last summer,left the Jacket and base just under the hide,and that was at 70m from a 20" barrel.

I can't knock a scattergun as it is the BEST choice in my opinion,for inside the house,and the reason I plan on the Bushy is that my better half is closer to the 590A1 and will beat me to it!

Frankly,if there is a long arm to be had,I do not want be fighting with a handgun.
I carry one daily off duty,and the only reason is that it's more convenient and accepted than humping around a rifle.
Keep safe!
E4E


Link Posted: 3/16/2002 10:53:42 PM EDT
Blitz hollow point urban ammo, I like it
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:00:44 AM EDT
AndyTN.. you got it right.. The 223 is a great all around defense round. Less penetration than the .40 cal more destruction on impact.. Although it is hard to carry a long gun in a dark house.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:11:34 AM EDT
55gr ballistic points. If it opens up a would be robber like it opens up a deer, problem solved.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:18:50 AM EDT
For home defense I rely upon two of my favorites for close quarters, my German Shepherds. If any intruders get by those girls then they are faced with my Mossberg 500 "Cruiser" 12 GA pistol grip loaded with #4 Heavy loads.
Next to the bed you can always find my 45Auto loaded up with 230 Grain jacketed Hydra-Shocks.
The AR is awesome, but not my choice for plinking intruders in the night (unless of course they are running through the woods).
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:03:48 AM EDT
Well I was afraid I might take a little heat about my opinions on this subject in regard to choice of weapon.

I am not terrilbly concerned about the "LAWS" as I am about the people who do the investigation.
I live in a small town in South Dakota that seems to have a very high rate of turnover in our local 1 1/2 person PD.
The locals want a cop who will not give out tickets to the big-wigs in town or hassle their kids for traffic violations.
We do not attract very well qualified personel.
In SD you have up to 1 year after being hired as a cop to attend and pass the state academy.
Our last Cheif of police went up and was dismissed for not completing the course in a satisfactory matter.
Hence we now have a new cheif who we had some years back who is a "Barney Fife" and the less I have to do with him the better.
The other reasons for not choosing a non politically correct weapon for home defense are personal in nature in that this is a small, close, everybody seems to know what everyone else is up to place.
The other reason is that I am a Christian and a Deacon in my Church and if I did have to take a life, the less attention that is drawn to the event and my choice of tool the better.
I am done defending my veiwpoint on this and if you choose an AR for home defense, I have no issue with that as it is your personal choice to make.

Lee
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:28:01 AM EDT
We use Hornady 40 grain TAP for entry and although we've had only one shooting with it I like the way it performed.Check your local gunshows and they most likely have the heavier TAP rounds.They are all accurate and have low flash even out of post ban guns.Every long gun needs a light that has both momentary and a constant on button so you can use your cell phone,open doors etc.I use an M-3 illuminator mounted on GG&Gs mount(1 o'clock position for a righty)Have a plan....see Louis Awerbuck's new tape "SAFE AT HOME"
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:37:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By S-28:
ARlady,
I hear ya on the velocity thing,but it only comes into play at longer distances,or with short barrels.




as i lay in bed last night after posting that, i knew i'd have to do some clarification. but i just didn't feel like getting up and fixing it then.

for close, in-home defense, there is little difference in velocities, true. by my .223 rifles are for maximum effective distance. hence, i need/want the longer barrels. i won't sacrifice the prime purpose of MY rifles, just to be able to use them for home defense. my comment wasn't so much related to velocities for home defense as it was to the purpose of those rifles and that's why they don't make good home defense firearms. and why i won't go with the rifles that do make better home defense firarms: because they don't serve my intended purpose of maximizing effective distance.

does that make sense?
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 3:03:03 PM EDT
Some of us have a hard time affording rifleS plus shotguns and handguns. Thus I use my AR for as many chores as it can be made to cover. I do try to buy quality though.

I have a few guns but except for the AR they are all hand-me down antiques that cost me nothing or next to nothing and they are not really suited for any kind of fighting, except maybe at long range in the open field.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 3:37:54 PM EDT
ARlady,
Thanks for clarifying!
However I must add that I think you are living in a condition that is incomplete...
Ya don't have a shorty??
Ya gotta have a shorty!
I have a couple long range Varminters,a CPRP Std. rifle,and then the new shorty I just put together,and another on the way using a Gain twist 16" barrel.
Ya gotta have a shorty Girl!
They're too much FUN!!!!
Till then keep the scattergun handy!
Keep safe!
E4E
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 3:42:04 PM EDT
NailBender,
I understand the small town issues,and such a situation with the local PD.
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do,and that Pheasant gun is no slouch.No apologies needed man.
Although it would be too cool to have a church where the Deacon held rifle practice after services every sunday!!
Keep safe,and God Bless ya man!
E4E
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 3:47:33 PM EDT
IMO, shorter AR-15 style rifles are unbeatable in CQ engagements. My Colt M4gery (14.5" bbl, 4-pos stock) is the weapon I trust the most to defend health and home. It is lightweight, 100% reliable, semi-automatic, highly maneuverable, fires a round that is devastating in the antipersonnel role, and has a 30 round magazine full of those rounds. Although I have other weapons that would work in a pinch, none of them comes close to the tactical capability of a short AR-15.

My rifle is loaded with Winchester Power-Point Plus HV 64gr JSP (the evil, black ones!).
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:01:31 PM EDT
Although I would agree that the .223 is a great manstopper, and has less chance of over penetration than a pistol round, I am still reluctant to use it for home defense. The reason for having a gun for defensive purposes is to be able to EFFECTIVELY engage a target. Due to the serious over-pressure caused by high powered rifles in confined spaces, I doubt that I would be able to engage much of anything after the first round was fired (there is a reason suppressors are employed for CQB). IMHO I believe that the shotgun is a better tool when chosing a long-gun for this task, and a pistol is a better choice than the shotgun due to moving within the confines of your home (less likely to be disarmed). My personal choice is my Glock 34 / 33rnd mag / M3 Tac-light. And yes, even with a pistol, my peltor TAC-6's are immediately available.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:08:56 PM EDT
YOU have opened up my eyes,I never thought about reaching for the AR,I've always kept it locked up in the safe along with the other firearms,If I had to respond I'd reach for the Glock w./ 135 gr. hydrashocks & worry about the mess to clean up later,I'd like to have some of the glass frag. type ammo though.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:24:17 PM EDT
I think the noise level alone would prompt me to look into to other calibers. Discharging .223 indoors w/o hearing protection is going to cause some problems. Not being able to here the police officers' orders when they arrive will probably be one of them.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:58:17 PM EDT
Another 2 cent deposit from me:


IMO, shotguns are too long and unwieldy for true CQ use, the exception being the 14" "CQ/entry" models. 18-20" non-NFA shotguns are 40" long and tend to have extraordinarily long lengths of pull (yes, even for a 5'10" guy like me). This hampers maneuverability and is easy to snatch. Semi-automatic shotguns are better, because I would never employ a weapon that I NEED two fully functional arms/hands to manipulate as the chance of injury to a limb in a life and death situation is too great. The pump shotgun will always remain in the closet unless I have no other option.

As for the hearing damage issue, there is a lot of medical evidence/documentation that in a severe "fight or flight" mode, the human body shuts down all (what it considers) non-essential bodily functions, like hearing, thus little or no hearing damage takes place. So I consider this a non-issue (many would disagree). Many indoor police shootings have provided evidence where an officer (in fight or flight mode) has discharged a rifle in an enclosed area and not suffered any appreciable hearing damage.

My second choice, if the M4 was out of reach, would be my Glock 32. Ultra maneuverable, 100% reliable, accurate enough, semi-automatic, and powerful for a handgun. This is my second choice because a handgun is less effective in the antipersonnel role ballistically, it is harder to shoot effectively under extreme stress, and it is ineffective against a crook wearing even an old $75 eBay IIA Kevlar vest. This is more important than most people think because if the SHTF, the best probably 95% of people can do is aim for (and hit) COM. In the dark against a dangerous, moving target, head/groin shots AREN'T LIKELY.

I agree with Jimmo when he says "I'd reach for (fill in weapon here) & worry about the mess to clean up later..."

OK, maybe that was 3 cents long, but only worth 2 cents!


Link Posted: 3/17/2002 5:21:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2002 10:18:34 PM EDT by clinth]
The 223/556 is the best round for CQB do to the penetration issue. Here are some penetration figures from the article:

The Wounding Effects of 5.56MM/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared with 12 GA.Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant - by Gary K. Roberts, DDS

9mm fed 147gr JHP 22.8"
40 s&w Rem 180gr JHP 25.2"
.45acp Win 230JHP SXT 29.7"
12ga Rem 1oz slug 22.2"
12ga Rem 00 buck 23.2"

The deepest 556 penetration was 16.1" which was a Win 55gr FMJ

The shallowest was Black hills 68gr JHP with a depth of 10.6"


Keep in mind the penetration depth is in 10% gelatin after it has past through an interior wall. Also these figures are from real weapons not some test barrel. If you want the article drop me a line and I will see what I can do.

My thought on the hearing issue:

Most people who have hunted big game are familiar with the fight or flight mode BMANSAR15 spoke of. When hunting and you have the game in your sights, you squeeze the trigger you don't feel the recoil or hear the sound of the shot. This is the fight of flight mode

Clinth
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 6:37:46 PM EDT
During a fight or flight reaction, auditory exclusion (loss of hearing) takes place; this is psychological. Hearing damage caused by over-pressure (ie. the blood running out your ears) is physiological. The first is what your brain thinks is happening and the second is what is really going on. The .223 is bad news for CQB unless sound suppression is utilized.

Just my $.04 ($.02 deposited earlier)
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 7:10:25 PM EDT
Thanks S-28, nice to know somebody on here agrees with me.
As for rifle practice after church, I can use scripture to justify that
Psalms has a few passages where King David thanked God for preparing his hands and body for battle.


Lee
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 7:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By S-28:
ARlady,
Thanks for clarifying!
However I must add that I think you are living in a condition that is incomplete...
Ya don't have a shorty??
Ya gotta have a shorty!
I have a couple long range Varminters,a CPRP Std. rifle,and then the new shorty I just put together,and another on the way using a Gain twist 16" barrel.
Ya gotta have a shorty Girl!
They're too much FUN!!!!
Till then keep the scattergun handy!
Keep safe!
E4E



i'm fast becoming aware of that! have a lower on order to which i'm thinking of mating a dissipator upper. i just don't like the midget look the rifle gets with the short handguards. yuck!

this will be my first foray into the "building" your own venture too. we'll see how that goes.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:31:20 PM EDT
ARlady,
Humor me on this.....
Forget the disapator.
Go flat top and M4 civillian barrel assembly.
Mount up an Eotech or Trijicon reflexII.
If you are gonna go light and handy...GO LIGHT AND HANDY!
The dissapator has all the feel of a std.20" M16A2 and offers nothing over a STD light barreld 20" rifle.
Yeah it has that creepy "Maniacal midget on acid" look to it,but after doing some short range drills and timed point shooting,you will be glad ya did.
I carry an M4 at work,and marvel at the difference almost daily.I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5" for terminal reasons,but 16" is a legal and handy comprimise.
I have built a couple dozen AR "Freaks" for customers in my Chequered past,and if ya get yer tail feathers in a bind,just holler.
Be glad to help if I can.
There really is nothing to the beast if you have the right tools at hand,and don't get too nervous about it.

Go light and short,or you may be dissapointed.
As far as looks go,it ain't always the pretty girls that have all the fun ya know!

BTW it's cool having a chick that shoots on a public forum about firearms!
You ROCK!!!
Keep safe!
S-28
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:44:38 PM EDT
Lots of comments and detractions about noise in tactical operations when using the AR indoors.
Lemme tell ya this.
The difference between a 9mm,40S&W,12ga 2-3/4" and a .223 in ones home is esoteric at best.
All of them will flat out hammer your ear drums,and you WILL hear ringing for the next couple of days if not for a lifetime afterwards.
It is a Non-issue in reality.
The defense mechanisms mother gave ya in the Genes will take over and you will neither notice recoil,nor the sound of the burst at the muzzle...untill afterwards.
Same goes for minor cuts,peripheral impacts from the bad guys weapon,and anything else that dosn't shut down your nervous system.
God gave us the ultimate survival machine and it's wired for combat as soon as adrenaline dumps in the system.
Trust me,it works as designed.
Wearing muffs or plugs that block ALL sound is a bad idea...you may miss subtle sounds that can save your hide.
Keep safe all!
S-28
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:33:05 PM EDT
I posted this in the ammo forum, but I'll repost it here. Here's an excellent article reprinted from "Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement"

.223 For CQB
www.lepsa.org/223%20for%20CQB.htm

Also, Firearms Tactical Institute published data from a IWBA test of twenty-three different .223 rounds, nine of which were recommended for Personal Defense/Law Enforcement:
www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm

I don't use a long gun for my primary HD gun mainly because I don't have a dedicated flashlight attached, which I consider a necessity. I use a Surefire 9Z combat light and a SA .45 for primary defense, and I keep a loaded Remington 870 handy if things get really nasty.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 4:11:50 AM EDT
I personally think you can't go wrong with an M4gery for home defense. I have an HK45F nearby, but the AR15 is pretty near too.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 6:48:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By S-28:
ARlady,
Humor me on this.....
Forget the disapator.
Go flat top and M4 civillian barrel assembly.
Mount up an Eotech or Trijicon reflexII.
If you are gonna go light and handy...GO LIGHT AND HANDY!
The dissapator has all the feel of a std.20" M16A2 and offers nothing over a STD light barreld 20" rifle.
Yeah it has that creepy "Maniacal midget on acid" look to it,but after doing some short range drills and timed point shooting,you will be glad ya did.
I carry an M4 at work,and marvel at the difference almost daily.I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5" for terminal reasons,but 16" is a legal and handy comprimise.
I have built a couple dozen AR "Freaks" for customers in my Chequered past,and if ya get yer tail feathers in a bind,just holler.
Be glad to help if I can.
There really is nothing to the beast if you have the right tools at hand,and don't get too nervous about it.

Go light and short,or you may be dissapointed.
As far as looks go,it ain't always the pretty girls that have all the fun ya know!

BTW it's cool having a chick that shoots on a public forum about firearms!
You ROCK!!!
Keep safe!
S-28



my reasons for getting a shorty version wouldn't necessarily be weight issues. so it makes less difference to me that the weight is at a certain point. besides, if you turn out to be right, wouldn't i have to get a third version.

all else being equal, it doesn't seem like a little extra plastic in the handguards would make that much of a difference. anyhow, barrel length would be the main factor in acquiring a new AR.

thanks for the compliment. i learn a little something new everyday!
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:13:18 AM EDT
I would never use an assault rifle with more than a sixteen inch barrel for home defense. An m4, shorty, or an ak, yeah.


Originally Posted By Nukem:
Winchester white box 45 gr. JHP Varmint load rated at 3600 fps...



Hmm... interesting. This is a good load for two legged varmints?
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:20:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By S-28:
ARlady,
Humor me on this.....
Forget the disapator.
Go flat top and M4 civillian barrel assembly.
Mount up an Eotech or Trijicon reflexII.
If you are gonna go light and handy...GO LIGHT AND HANDY!
The dissapator has all the feel of a std.20" M16A2 and offers nothing over a STD light barreld 20" rifle.
Yeah it has that creepy "Maniacal midget on acid" look to it,but after doing some short range drills and timed point shooting,you will be glad ya did.
I carry an M4 at work,and marvel at the difference almost daily.I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5" for terminal reasons,but 16" is a legal and handy comprimise.
I have built a couple dozen AR "Freaks" for customers in my Chequered past,and if ya get yer tail feathers in a bind,just holler.
Be glad to help if I can.
There really is nothing to the beast if you have the right tools at hand,and don't get too nervous about it.

Go light and short,or you may be dissapointed.
As far as looks go,it ain't always the pretty girls that have all the fun ya know!

BTW it's cool having a chick that shoots on a public forum about firearms!
You ROCK!!!
Keep safe!
S-28




Any suggestions as to the make/model of M4 upper she should be looking at? I would quite interested to know.

Link Posted: 3/18/2002 10:10:19 PM EDT
Matt_s,
There are several ways to go about it really.
My latest is an A3 upper Rec. from another rifle I mutated,matched with the Bushy 14.5" Post ban Barrel assembly that has the Noisy Brake on it to keep within the 16" rule.
On a Pre-Ban lower ya gotta keep within all the other limitations that may apply depending upon state and local ordinances.

For one stop shopping Bushy has their Post ban(Lemme go get a catalog and find it so I don't sound like a doofus!)M4 upper already done up on the flat top,and it's on Page 19 of the new catalog.If you order from Bushy just specify that you want it on a flat top upper receiver and the cost is the same.
My biggest objection to the Dissipator config. is the weight of the barrel.
Granted it takes the heat better at the range,but will flat wear a guy out after two or three cycles through the fun house keeping the rifle at the "hunt".It also adds up carrying the thing around for long periods of time.
Accuracy from my 14.5 with the Y-comp(Dadgum it is NOISY!) has been in the 1.0-2.0 MOA range with SA Ball,and hovering at 1MOA using Bulk Hornady 55gr SP's from Pat McDonald over 25gr H335 in once fired Rem. Brass.
I like the Bushy uppers on account of the Permanant dry lube coating,and I have found they vary less in tolerances from some of the others I have tinkered with.They also use a Mil.Spec Picatinny rail.
Just a note.The Trijicon ReflexII puts up with all kinds of abuse! I had my doubts a year ago,but after the last year of keeping them up and running Call me impressed!
Hope this helps!
S-28

Link Posted: 3/18/2002 10:19:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARlady:

Originally Posted By S-28:
ARlady,
Humor me on this.....
Forget the disapator.
Go flat top and M4 civillian barrel assembly.
Mount up an Eotech or Trijicon reflexII.
If you are gonna go light and handy...GO LIGHT AND HANDY!
The dissapator has all the feel of a std.20" M16A2 and offers nothing over a STD light barreld 20" rifle.
Yeah it has that creepy "Maniacal midget on acid" look to it,but after doing some short range drills and timed point shooting,you will be glad ya did.
I carry an M4 at work,and marvel at the difference almost daily.I wouldn't go shorter than 14.5" for terminal reasons,but 16" is a legal and handy comprimise.
I have built a couple dozen AR "Freaks" for customers in my Chequered past,and if ya get yer tail feathers in a bind,just holler.
Be glad to help if I can.
There really is nothing to the beast if you have the right tools at hand,and don't get too nervous about it.

Go light and short,or you may be dissapointed.
As far as looks go,it ain't always the pretty girls that have all the fun ya know!

BTW it's cool having a chick that shoots on a public forum about firearms!
You ROCK!!!
Keep safe!
S-28



my reasons for getting a shorty version wouldn't necessarily be weight issues. so it makes less difference to me that the weight is at a certain point. besides, if you turn out to be right, wouldn't i have to get a third version. he
thanks for the compliment. i learn a little something new everyday!





ARlady,
What? you need an excuse???
Get both and sell the one ya don't like!
BTW what is it that you are using the AR for where weight isn't an issue but length possibly is?
I don't mean to be Nosy so lets call it curious(Polite way of saying "Nosey") anyhoo.
I have this weight/length conflict thing myself and it has led to a couple sessions with the bench vice and a general flattening of the wallet as a result.
I may have already done something silly that you are about to...if it helps.
Keep safe!
S-28
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