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Posted: 3/14/2002 1:28:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 4:59:01 PM EDT by Gunbert]
I have an idea, and I want all you legal smartguys out there to shoot holes in it. You too, ETH.

What if a company got a deal with Colt or other reputable mag manufacturer and provided shooters with "mag insurance". It would work like this... Pay say $20 a year to have a 'policy' and any old mag body you send in would be replaced with a newly manufactured one, on a one for one basis with a $10-$15 'deductible'. No new mags are created, no laws broken, the current supply is maintained and mag makers are happy they have some of the civilian market share again. It would also help keep mag costs down over the long run, since with a finite supply as some wear out the rest become more valuable... this would create an almost static amount of mags. You could do this with just about any magazine that is now banned. Would it work?



Ok, have at it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:32:50 PM EDT
Legally, I don't see any reason why it couldn't happen.

It would be awesome if a company did do this.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:37:56 PM EDT
I like it, I would love a source of mag parts, let alone the body. What if I get a USA mag, put weld on it so it is NJ legal, move to FL, and replace the body.....restored to origional configuration
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:46:58 PM EDT
I'm not a lawyer, but what a great idea. I could say goodbye to my 4 USA mags.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 2:49:20 PM EDT
Three positives is encouraging... anybody else?
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:11:52 PM EDT
Good thinking! However I doubt we will ever see this happen. Too bad though really. Something I have been thinking about that could become a good alternative in the future when USGI and Thermolds dry up (if they ever do) would be to take a bunch of the USA's, Triple K's, Victor's and Western mags and send them to a company to be redone. Wilson Combat would be a good company for this! Replace the springs and followers with GI and Wolff, measure the feed lips and reshape them if not standard. Then case harden them where they wouldn't easily deform again. In other words, take a junk mag that already exists and rebuild it to the quality it should have been to start with. But like the other case, I doubt this will ever happen either. Unless of course, we fix em' ourselves!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:58:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Good thinking! However I doubt we will ever see this happen




Well, I was thinking of making it happen, possibly. I've been wanting to start my own business for a while now, I just need the right niche... and this is a pretty good one, IMHO. I just wanted to get some feedback on potential legal problems, and a lot of the guys here are law savvy.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:13:11 PM EDT
So you pay a yearly $20, which really isn't for anything but membership.

Then you pay $15 (ded) for a new mag when your old one is sent in?

I think your legal problems only arise when the manufacture date is post 94. At first blush, i don't think it'll fly. My reasoning is that the ban didn't really do anything other than prohibit new production for the public, which wasn't a really effective ban since we can still possess, shoot and buy high cap mags. The legislative force was only in banning new production for us. That's just my take on the situation.

What would be done with the old mags? Sent to be destroyed? They would have to be, since they could turn around and be sold back the public thereby increasing the amount of mags on the market. Too many problems involved here in my opinion.

Maybe if it were only a replacement of the mag body, it might fly, but if the spring/floorplate/follower were not old parts, you just violated the 94 ban!

As far as business potential, I think you're finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Now if you were able to develope a new product for the ar15, then you're in business!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:15:54 PM EDT

any old mag body you send in would be replaced with a newly manufactured one

No way, Jose! Gunbert, you are an evil person making evil new hicaps. Bad bad bad! I don't think the law says you can make new hicaps if you take old ones out of circulation. It says no new hicaps for mere commoners (you and I). Period.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:25:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
Bad bad bad! I don't think the law says you can make new hicaps if you take old ones out of circulation. It says no new hicaps for mere commoners (you and I). Period.




My understanding of the law is that damaged parts of magazines may be replaced with new ones, as long as whole new mags are not created and sold to the public. I'm merely suggesting the replacement of worn out parts on a one for one basis... not whole mags, but mag bodies or floorplates. No new mags would be produced, and as a coporate entity the company would have to track the destruction of the old mags to ensure that there was no surplus. Actually it wouldn't be that hard to do, and I wouldn't feel bad about destroying old mag bodies if I could replace them with new ones.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:48:45 PM EDT
No I don't think so. This is because I see "mag rebuild kits" for sale, with baseplates, followers and springs. Not bodies. Therefore, I think the "body" of the mag is actually the mag, much like the receiver is not just a part of a gun, legally, it *is* the gun.

If I am wrong, lemme know!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:49:22 PM EDT
I wish your idea were an eagle, and then it would fly, but I'm afraid it's really a turkey that won't.

I am quite sure that the BATF would rule that the component of a new magazine that has to be stamped "for government or law enforcement use only", which is the mag body/shell, is the part that IS the magazine as far as they're concerned. They would not allow you to produce those mag bodies without those markings and those restrictions.

Is it fair? No. Is it even legal? The whole damned hi-cap mag ban is part of the assault weapons ban, and being anti-gun legislation of a sort, it is illegal because it directly violates the plain language of the Second Amendment.

Ignoring a law that's illegal and unenforceable is one thing, but ignoring a law that's illegal but IS enforced is quite another. Being right and being in jail is still being in jail.


CJ

Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:59:59 PM EDT
Someone here at ar15.com has a letter from the BATF saying the body IS a replaceable part.

The Armalite AR-10 magazines are made by purchasing an M14 magazine and then purchasing a "kit", which includes everything but the spring and floor plate. (The spring and floor plate come from the M14 mag.)

In this light, I don't see how the argument that the body of the mag is the mag stands up.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:01:29 PM EDT
I'm gonna hunt around the web and see what I can drum up... maybe make a call to the ATF to sort out the legality issue. I'm not into doing anything illegal, but I will exploit the shite out of a loophole if I can.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:04:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Someone here at ar15.com has a letter from the BATF saying the body IS a replaceable part.




Whomever has that letter wold be a great help to me... anyone know who's holding?
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:07:36 PM EDT
I like your idea Gunbert. If this can be done, the supply and, perhaps, the price of mags will plateau.

.... of course I would wait until after 2004 before you start your business. Your business has no point if the law doesn't become reenacted.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:12:26 PM EDT
I guess it sounds ok but out here you can get surplus mags by the crate load ... I mean 40 ar mags isn't too many ? Is it ?
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:13:57 PM EDT

The Armalite AR-10 magazines are made by purchasing an M14 magazine and then purchasing a "kit", which includes everything but the spring and floor plate. (The spring and floor plate come from the M14 mag.)


But so what? This is the *conversion* of an existing mag body from M14 to AR10. It is not the *replacement* of the mag body. If Gunbert's theory would work, you could send *any* hicap mag to Armalite, whatever coin is necessary, and they could send you a *new* AR10 mag, including a *new* body. They can't because a stupid law says they can't!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:23:49 PM EDT
Well, if the mag body IS a replaceable part, I want to buy about 500 of them right now, and another 500 green followers, and another 500 springs, and another 500 floorplates.

Then I'd be stylin'!



CJ


Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:29:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Well, if the mag body IS a replaceable part, I want to buy about 500 of them right now, and another 500 green followers, and another 500 springs, and another 500 floorplates.

Then I'd be stylin'!



You could do this, but assembling the parts is an illegal act. (It would be manufacturing a new magazine.)
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:37:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 6:42:12 PM EDT by Q-Man]

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
But so what? This is the *conversion* of an existing mag body from M14 to AR10. It is not the *replacement* of the mag body. If Gunbert's theory would work, you could send *any* hicap mag to Armalite, whatever coin is necessary, and they could send you a *new* AR10 mag, including a *new* body. They can't because a stupid law says they can't!



No. Conversion is illegal if the magazine will no longer fit in the original gun. You don't have to send your magazines to Armalite to have them "converted" (although that is an option). You can buy M14 mags and AR10 conversion kits (AR10 mag conversion kits include a new body). Then you assemble the AR10 magazine and keep the old M14 parts around to prove that you did not manufacture a new magazine if a government Nazi SS agent comes around and says "papers please!".

There is no provision in the law regarding the supply of magazines in the market (although, that may have been the intension).
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:50:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q-Man:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Well, if the mag body IS a replaceable part, I want to buy about 500 of them right now, and another 500 green followers, and another 500 springs, and another 500 floorplates.

Then I'd be stylin'!



You could do this, but assembling the parts is an illegal act. (It would be manufacturing a new magazine.)




I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency and stupidity of the rules.

Suppose I start with a fresh 30 round GI magazine. I replace the follower with a green one. I'm OK. I wear out the spring and replace it. I'm OK. I accidentally slam the mag in the door, rendering the body and floorplate useless. I replace those parts. Have I replaced damaged parts or have I made a new magazine?

See? This big grey area SUCKS, man! If every part of the mag can be replaced individually, but you can't build a new mag, then they're telling us one thing and then telling us the exact opposite.

CJ
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 7:02:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency and stupidity of the rules. ....This big grey area SUCKS, man! .....



No arguments here!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 8:28:32 PM EDT
How about your new business just replacing the "damaged" mag body and bottom? The customer can replace the rest.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 9:15:23 PM EDT
This has been discussed in the Magazine section. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=99552

Basically it is OK to do, as long as you start and end with the same amount of mags, and don't have enough parts to make any more mags.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 9:59:00 PM EDT
Hmmm, the only problems with these kinds of businesses is that sometimes all you are doing is showing anti-gunners something else that needs to be legislated against (from their point of view of course) best to wait until you turn the tide and the NRA,etc have all the momentum destroying the ANTI-Gun movement in the first place and then start floating new ideas and new creations, when they can no longer muster the political support to try and stop you. Especially since in a few years the AW ban will sunset.And they may come up with something new...... Well you get the point of this whole shpeal.

Benjamin
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 10:36:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Dragon:
Basically it is OK to do, as long as you start and end with the same amount of mags, and don't have enough parts to make any more mags.



This is the basic premise I'm running on... I have no intention of replacing complete mags. But if you send me a 10 beat up old Sanchez bodies, I'd like to legally destroy them and replace them with new ones, for a nominal fee, of course. Thus, no new mags, but your old ones are revitalized.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:03:09 PM EDT
I am in let me know when you get this going.

Call me your first client
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:19:54 AM EDT
This would kinda work.

Pros
You can replace the mag bodies, look in a Brownell's catalog they sell them there for Paraord type 1911's, etc.

There would be a market for those who didn't want to attempt DIY.

Convenience.


Cons
The parts can ONLY be replaced one part at a time. I believe that is what the law say.

You would eventually be legislated out of business. Maybe not nationally but at least in some states (try it anyway).




It could probably succeed but i'm not a lawyer.
I do see a possible market.

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