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Posted: 3/13/2002 9:30:54 PM EDT
Why do gun manufacturers still offer rifles in this caliber? I must be missing something.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 9:39:52 PM EDT
Well, I know it tends to be popular in some European countries where people can't own weapons in a military caliber but can in other calibers.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 10:06:24 PM EDT
Why a .270 when you can get a .284 7mm rem mag, almost the same but not quite! Why 10mm when you can get a 40 S&W almost the same .but not quite , and so on and so on...Why a .45 when you can get a 10mm you get the picture!
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 10:13:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Why a .270 when you can get a .284 7mm rem mag, almost the same but not quite! Why 10mm when you can get a 40 S&W almost the same .but not quite , and so on and so on...Why a .45 when you can get a 10mm you get the picture!



Shouldn't that read why get a .40 when you can have a .10mm
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 10:54:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 10:55:25 PM EDT by Jewbroni]

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Why a .270 when you can get a .284 7mm rem mag, almost the same but not quite! Why 10mm when you can get a 40 S&W almost the same .but not quite , and so on and so on...Why a .45 when you can get a 10mm you get the picture!



Actually the previous comment of countries (in Europe mostly) that aren't allowed to own weapons chambered in military calibers is the true basis behind it. Thus, weapons chambered in close to military calibers, such as the .222
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:47:47 AM EDT
.222 Rem was THE standard for Benchrest for a long time (before the 6mm PPC). Benchrest is the sport where the smallest aggregate group at 100 yds wins, typically less than 0.2 inches.

I've got a .222 Rem 788 that will do that good on a windless day (I'm not that good at doping the wind). It will consistently outshoot any of my ARs.

www.precisionshooting.com
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:16:23 AM EDT
well........,

for one thyng, the .222 Rem was years before the .223 or any of the other .22 clones......

& as been mentioned, those EVIL military rounds are verboeten, no no, illegal & nasty.......


Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:02:20 AM EDT
For additional enlightenment, post this question over on the varmint or benchrest boards. Those guys will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the .222
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:19:26 AM EDT
One of the first times I ever fired a full powered rifle was a deer rifle that shot .222. That was a hot, flat little round.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 2:58:07 PM EDT
Has anyone seen that new .17 Hornady varmint round? Supposedly a viable replacement for the .22LR or .22MAG, which is believable at 2100FPS. But how do you think it would compare to the .222Rem?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:56:12 PM EDT
All I know about the .17 HMR, is that I want one! I'm waiting for all the hype to die down a bit, and let the price (on rifles & ammo) to stabilize. Plus CZ is planning on introducing a .17 HMR rifle soon. That 17gr, frangible bullet will vaporize a squirrels head.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 4:05:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
well........,

for one thing, the .222 Rem was years before the .223 ..........




Yep.

(ArmaLite modified the .222 Remington to come up with the 5.56mm for the AR-15 - 1957-1959.)
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:32:55 PM EDT
yes 321bang it should read a 10mm over a 40S&weak ,but also a 10mm over the .45(not so weak) but just a little shy of ballistics.. i keep a 10mm thompson 1911 by my bed, but a 1911 beside my computer. the perps will have to tell me if there is any advantage! I fiqure a pistol is just a back-up anyway.. (hell maybe i am paranoid after all) i fell like i may be the last line of deffense before the jonhnie on the spot police can get here to help me! I even think they might even think gee you are a smart dude to protect yourself and household till we can get there ! Must be drunk or dreaming! bob cole
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:38:09 PM EDT
Oh yeah 321bang on this web site its kind of a newbee joke or something i haven't fiqured out yet ,but we aren't sopposed to admit to liking carrots or 10mm! just thought i would warn you. (but hell if you got a 10mm you can like anything you want to right?) bob cole
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 12:32:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
well........,

for one thing, the .222 Rem was years before the .223 ..........




Yep.

(ArmaLite modified the .222 Remington to come up with the 5.56mm for the AR-15 - 1957-1959.)



Well, technically, Armalite did NOT modify the .222. It's true that the .223 is a derivative of the .222, but it was in fact Army small arms engineers at Aberdeen Proving Ground that did the adaptation. Armalite (specifically Stoner) did make a very minor change to the design of the new round, a dimensional change to improve reliability in the AR-15. Army Ordnance's finished round was called the .222 Special, which spawned both the .223 and the .222 Magnum. Funny thing was, the engineers were working against Army doctrine and policy, and nearly caused a lot of grief for themselves.

ref: The Black Rifle, starting on page 12, and personal knowledge.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 1:15:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Oh yeah 321bang on this web site its kind of a newbee joke or something i haven't fiqured out yet ,but we aren't sopposed to admit to liking carrots or 10mm! just thought i would warn you. (but hell if you got a 10mm you can like anything you want to right?) bob cole



We had a board member who loved the 10mm and Gyrojets...and several of his names had "carrot" in them.

I couldn't tell you how many times he got booted...still comes back every-now-and-then too.

So, that's why people always ask newbies if they like those things.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:34:07 AM EDT
Anyone have a "colt" ar in 222?.......YES, they did make them......
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 6:55:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
well........,

for one thing, the .222 Rem was years before the .223 ..........




Yep.

(ArmaLite modified the .222 Remington to come up with the 5.56mm for the AR-15 - 1957-1959.)



Well, technically, Armalite did NOT modify the .222. It's true that the .223 is a derivative of the .222, but it was in fact Army small arms engineers at Aberdeen Proving Ground that did the adaptation. Armalite (specifically Stoner) did make a very minor change to the design of the new round, a dimensional change to improve reliability in the AR-15. Army Ordnance's finished round was called the .222 Special, which spawned both the .223 and the .222 Magnum. Funny thing was, the engineers were working against Army doctrine and policy, and nearly caused a lot of grief for themselves.

ref: The Black Rifle, starting on page 12, and personal knowledge.



Howdy Gus,
I'm quoting Sullivan who states he and Bob Fremont did the design on the .223. I've seen Sullivan chastising him self for not making the cartridge rim "thicker and/or stronger."

I too have the Black Rifle.

I wonder about Stoner having much to do with the 5.56 cartridge design as he sure as heck didn't like the caliber or anything below 7.62 for military use.

Just for grins, let's see where we each stand on Stoner's designs at ArmaLite. I've maintained that Stoner designed exactly two rifles at ArmaLite the AR-10 and the AR-16 - both in 7.62.

Might as well throw-in the Stoner 63. Who do you believe designed this machinegun ?

What's your take ?

However, you state "personal knowledge" and therefore I'll defer to you.

(It may well be that we're into semantics....I'm saying "Sullivan and Fremont designed" and you're saying "Aberdeen did the adaption.")

One question that I've never been able to get an answer to: Who designed the "Stoppette" at ArmaLite ? This was the first .22 (.222) designed there. Best I've been able to determine the Stoppette was probably designated the AR-11. I know it wasn't Stoner, Sullivan, Fremont, Miller, etc., but I've not been able to find out who and James Sullivan doesn't remember.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 3:18:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Howdy Gus,
I'm quoting Sullivan who states he and Bob Fremont did the design on the .223. I've seen Sullivan chastising him self for not making the cartridge rim "thicker and/or stronger."

I too have the Black Rifle.

I wonder about Stoner having much to do with the 5.56 cartridge design as he sure as heck didn't like the caliber or anything below 7.62 for military use.

Just for grins, let's see where we each stand on Stoner's designs at ArmaLite. I've maintained that Stoner designed exactly two rifles at ArmaLite the AR-10 and the AR-16 - both in 7.62.

Might as well throw-in the Stoner 63. Who do you believe designed this machinegun ?

What's your take ?

However, you state "personal knowledge" and therefore I'll defer to you.



<edit>


(It may well be that we're into semantics....I'm saying "Sullivan and Fremont designed" and you're saying "Aberdeen did the adaption.")




I'm certainly no Armalite historian, so I wouldn't want to hazzard a guess about who designed what Armalite rifles. I do know a little about the origins of the 5.56 NATO round, however. Sullivan and Fremont had little to nothing to do with the round. Sullivan may have had the opportunity to make a change such as increasing the thickness of the rim, but as you said he did not do so. Stoner himself, while claiming to have designed the .223, also used the APG design (B.R. page 60). He claimed that he changed the bullet design slightly to get the weight down to 55gr. APG had designed and tested and recommended ammo with 40, 55 and 69gr bullets but considered 55gr best (page 54). I guess the one he was basing from was the 69gr variant, but the bullet he chose for 55gr was the SAME design and manufacture as APG's 55gr. Stoner slightly changed the powder from APG's recommendation to a different grain size, to get chamber pressures in line with what was needed for the AR-15. He also made slight dimensional changes for feeding reliability.
My personaly knowledge comes from the fact that my dad is G.A. Gustafson (page 12 - the .22 Gustafson Carbine). As a civilian engineer, federal employee, he had no rights to patent or otherwise profit from his work beyond his salary. Also, I got it backwards above - the .222 Special and the .223 were spawned by the .222 Magnum, which came from the .222. I have a Remington 700 BDL in .222 Magnum that was given to my dad by the president of Remington sometime around 1955, in appreciation for his work (probably an illegal gift!).
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 3:43:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2002 3:46:01 PM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By gus:

My personaly knowledge comes from the fact that my dad is G.A. Gustafson (page 12 - the .22 Gustafson Carbine). I have a Remington 700 BDL in .222 Magnum that was given to my dad by the president of Remington sometime around 1955, in appreciation for his work (probably an illegal gift!).



Gus, that 700 BDL in .222 Magnum given to you by your Dad is a priceless gift that I'm sure has been made legal by time.

As to who actually designed the 5.56mm cartridge, I have only Sullivan's word that he and Bob Fremont were the designers.

Perhaps we can agree the .223 was designed, as well as the AR-15/M16 rifle, for IMR powder and the Army's shift to Ball without notification to either ArmaLite or Colts' was the cause of many early deaths in Southeast Asia.

From what I can find out, Stoner designed the AR-10 and AR-16 rifles - both in 7.62 - while at ArmaLite.

From our earlier discussion, I agree the AR-15 was down-sized from the AR-10. Looks as if the AR-18 may have been a down-sized AR-16.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:01:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Gus, that 700 BDL in .222 Magnum given to you by your Dad is a priceless gift that I'm sure has been made legal by time.



Yeah, I doubt there is any legal problem with it. It was given after all the work had been done, and not as some sort of incentive.


As to who actually designed the 5.56mm cartridge, I have only Sullivan's word that he and Bob Fremont were the designers.


Those guys were the engineers that adapted Stoner's AR-10 design to the smaller package required for the new 5.56 ammo. Several people have made the claim that "they" designed it. Other than the last couple of details that Stoner addressed, the M193 round to this day is based 99% on the original SCHV project's design that was basically complete as early as 1953, which was even prior to the original AR-10.


Perhaps we can agree the .223 was designed, as well as the AR-15/M16 rifle, for IMR powder and the Army's shift to Ball without notification to either ArmaLite or Colts' was the cause of many early deaths in Southeast Asia.


Yes, we can definitely agree on that. The idiots that spec'd that change did so in an attempt at increasing the range of the weapon. However, they obviously never bothered to test their changes. I almost think of it as sabotage.


From what I can find out, Stoner designed the AR-10 and AR-16 rifles - both in 7.62 - while at ArmaLite.

From our earlier discussion, I agree the AR-15 was down-sized from the AR-10. Looks as if the AR-18 may have been a down-sized AR-16.




I think you're right about that. Most of Stoner's other work was after leaving Armalite. Eugene Stoner was a genius, I'd say comparable to Browning or Garand. The problem was, by Stoner's time, politics had invaded the Ordnance Dept., as opposed to the complete control enjoyed by Browning or Garand. I can proudly say I've met him, but I was so young I didn't have any idea who he was.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:26:02 PM EDT
ain't that "Black Rifle" book the greatest ???


BTW, what is the latest revision on the "AR15/M16 Scource Book"...........?
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 8:05:09 AM EDT
Can someone tell me more about an Ar being chambered in .222???? I know the Mini 14 was chambered in .222 but I have never heard of the AR.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 10:15:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hog_Sniper:
Can someone tell me more about an Ar being chambered in .222???? I know the Mini 14 was chambered in .222 but I have never heard of the AR.



HOG,
before the AR-15, ArmaLite designed a rifle called of all things the "Stoppette." ArmaLite designated this rifle the AR-11. The AR-11 was chambered for the .222 Remington.

ArmaLite never produced the AR-11 although it was used as a test-bed for the high-velocity bullet and was a forerunner to the AR-15.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 11:49:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2002 1:05:24 PM EDT by BlackandGreen]
But the colt sporter was offered in 222 rem in the early days....how many exist?....would`nt it be neat to find one?....................there are some 222mag rifles floating around.....just try to find ammo for them..........
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 4:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

I have a Remington 700 BDL in .222 Magnum that was given to my dad by the president of Remington sometime around 1955, in appreciation for his work (probably an illegal gift!).



You might want to take another look at that rifle since Remington didn't introduce the Model 700 until 1962.
Link Posted: 3/17/2002 7:17:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By gus:

I have a Remington 700 BDL in .222 Magnum that was given to my dad by the president of Remington sometime around 1955, in appreciation for his work (probably an illegal gift!).



You might want to take another look at that rifle since Remington didn't introduce the Model 700 until 1962.



It's in my dad's safe - I'll check it out next time I'm down there. I may be off on the year.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 6:39:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By gus:

I have a Remington 700 BDL in .222 Magnum that was given to my dad by the president of Remington sometime around 1955, in appreciation for his work (probably an illegal gift!).



You might want to take another look at that rifle since Remington didn't introduce the Model 700 until 1962.



It's in my dad's safe - I'll check it out next time I'm down there. I may be off on the year.



I'll bet what you have is a Model 722. That makes it even better.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:17:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2002 7:19:03 AM EDT by gus]

Originally Posted By Arock:
I'll bet what you have is a Model 722. That makes it even better.



Well, I just got off the phone with Pop - it's a 700 BDL, but he got it in late 1963 right after we moved back to Aberdeen from Florida. I guess it's one of the very early 700's in .222 Mag.. I'm going by there this eve - it's dad's 87th birthday today - and I'll try and snap a few pics of it while I'm there.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:51:46 AM EDT
I saw a 222AR somewere on one of my surfing(web) trips. I thought it was a misprint.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:14:41 AM EDT
I have an AR-15A2 in .222. They've been available for the overseas market starting with the SP-1 series. They aren't seen too often, but I wouldn't call them a collector's item or anything. I bought it because it was a brand new Colt pre-ban for $750. The guy couldn't sell it because of the odd caliber! Nothing a new upper couldn't cure.

Ross
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 8:51:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
I have an AR-15A2 in .222. They've been available for the overseas market starting with the SP-1 series. They aren't seen too often, but I wouldn't call them a collector's item or anything. I bought it because it was a brand new Colt pre-ban for $750. The guy couldn't sell it because of the odd caliber! Nothing a new upper couldn't cure.

Ross



SMART move. I need to get some of that going.
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