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Posted: 3/8/2002 4:05:49 PM EDT
Here is an article I came across by a stundent from Oregon State University. Gee just think this is going to be the mindset of the next generation of politicians.


Gun lovers are not patriots, period


I think last week was Second Amendment Week. I can't be sure. It might've been national potato week or Bavarian folk dancing month or some other important cause that owned the time. It was some recent week, however.
The notification did get me to read it again. "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
After a couple times through, it still doesn't make sense. In any case, the circumstances when it was written are very different from now. It's time for Americans to let go of their religious need for guns. They are no longer necessary for the security of the free State.
In 1791, when the Bill of Rights was ratified, the country was not far removed from the Revolutionary War. It was fought to give the people of the colonies the right to self-determination. King George III had used his standing army to suppress them. The colonists defeated these armies, in large part with state militias and citizen irregulars.
Before the war, citizens were required to quarter, or give free room and board, to the British army. So afterwards, the new Americans were not sure if they even wanted to have a standing army.
Some thought the best model for defense against foreign invasion was an amalgam of "well-regulated" local militias. Also during that time, modern democracy was brand new. There was a legitimate fear that the democratic experiment would not succeed. The government could have proven unstable and been taken over by autocratic forces, again foreign or domestic.
So the first original justification for the Second Amendment is to help citizens defend against foreign aggression. The second justification is to defend against domestic tyranny by the government. I say that now both of those are rendered obsolete by the same factor. That is the Unites States military.
We have now seen that the local militia model of defense is ineffective. A centralized military just works better. You won't find very many people who would argue that the military should be broken up into state-sized pieces.
With the growth of the central military has come a reality that can't be ignored. If someone were to take over the government of this country and gain control of that military, there is no lightly armed citizen force that could stop them.
Many people say that the right to bear arms is what protects our freedom and rights from an overbearing government, but there is no example of this. In Waco, Ruby Ridge, and on the back roads around the west there have been groups that have tried to take part against armed conflict with government agents. What they all have in common is that they were hopelessly outgunned. And they were only fighting the FBI and BLM, not the actual military.
The good news is that we don't really have to worry about government tyranny anymore. The Republican democracy experiment has become a highly stable tradition and establishment.
What I'm saying is that while we can't overthrow the government anymore, it's alright because we don't have to. If the people don't like it, they can elect a new one.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 4:07:19 PM EDT
continue:

The Second Amendment can and will be debated for a long time, but it really doesn't apply for the original reasons. There are other more debatable justifications people have for wanting to own guns.
Many will say that it is to "preserve freedom," or whatever. I don't believe, however, that people truly buy guns for reasons that abstract though, unless they are cultists or survivalist nuts. Most people have simpler causes.
One is simply the feeling of power. If you have ever used a gun, you know what it is like. It is pretty cool to shoot stuff, or to think how you could destroy something or someone with a little finger motion. While this is a fascinating emotion, I don't think that it justifies the proliferation of efficient deadly weapons in a peaceful society.
A related and better reason people cite is that guns can be used for protection and prevention of crime by law-abiding citizens. This is still weak to me, though.
There are numerous non-lethal methods for stopping most criminals, unless they are armed. Such is the situation we have gotten into. Since criminals can easily access guns, law-abiding citizens should be able to also to protect themselves.
Gun advocates say that if they are restricted or outlawed, then only criminals will have them. This is true in the near term, but they fail to realize where criminals get their guns. They buy and steal from the law-abiding owners in the first place. If they were restricted or outlawed, the supply would dry up.
The last reason people own them is for sport. Again, it is fun to shoot stuff, like animals or targets. I don't mind that, although for some reason I think it should be customary to eat what you kill. But again, the fun does not justify the proliferation of lethal weapons.
We have them ingrained in our culture. The Second Amendment not so clearly guarantees our right to own them. So for now I propose a national registry. Like an automobile, people should have to apply for a license, prove their competence, and refrain from illegal use to keep the right to own a firearm.
Law-abiding citizens realistically don't have anything to fear from registering with the government. Sales should be regulated and registered also. Certain types of weapons, ammo and accessories that have no legitimate sport or personal defense purpose are and should be banned.
This would eventually soak up the pool of deadly weapons in the hands of criminals, at which point the law abiding citizenry could disarm. There are more than 100 million firearms in this country now. It is time for America to examine what it is going to do with so many guns.

Sanjai Tripathi is a columnist for The Daily Barometer. The opinions in his columns, which appear every Thursday, do not necessarily represent those of The Barometer staff. Tripathi can be reached at sanjaitripathi@netscape.net.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 5:18:37 PM EDT
Why is it that so many of the people who see clearly how it is that we should lead OUR lives are from "out of town"? For the moment, I'll assume the individual is either an Indian immigrant or first generation American; perhaps he can explain how we live "armed to the teeth" in relative peace and safety and how his unarmed, but perhaps more spiritually pure brethren can kill off a few hundred folks just because they have a different religion. Who has the moral high ground?

Link Posted: 3/8/2002 5:27:06 PM EDT
Minute Man

You should post this on the "General Discussion, Non-Fireman" forum. This should get lots of interest.

Bladerunner
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 5:55:48 PM EDT
Another Indian liberal nuts ABCD's (American Born Confused Desis) spewing their crap about how its good to act like Ghandi to resist oppression and its bad to touch guns. Tell me, how the HELL are you going to nonviolently resist an oppressor if they do not show willingness to compremise?? Then what, you rather die oppressed than take up arms? Actually say that in Pakistan... in some part of the country if you are unarmed you are F#$%#ed.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 6:08:10 PM EDT
How is it that some guy named "Sanjai Tripathi" has anything to say about American Patriotism? I may be reading a bit too much into this but that doesn't sound like a fellow I would expect to lecture me on the American Constitution, or its meaning.



Perhaps he should be writing for spin start U instead...
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 6:10:55 PM EDT
Just another ignorant self-righteous student who thinks he has the answers to save the world.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 6:14:29 PM EDT
A fucking idiot if ever there was one. Maybe the red dot on his forehead was secured with a twenty penny nail, driven by a powder actuated Hilti tool. That would explain the apparent lack of a usable brain.

CJ
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 6:20:26 PM EDT
Yeah, I see this crap all the time at Wash U in St. Louis. I got in an argument with some Indians who claimed that America is a morally inferior country to India. These three Indians, all of whom were Hindu, told me this to my face. So then when I asked them why they are pursuing their premedical and ultimately medical school studies here in the states, they responded, OH OH, that's because our parents WORK HERE. Then when I asked could there be a reason WHY your parents work here, they got POed at me and stormed off.

Just remember folks, these people will also vote on our private property rights. We're all f$#ked (if you're white or black). They'll demographically take over along with the Mexicans and vote in more socialists to power. I have yet to meet any immigrants from Asia, SE Asia, Arabia or India that are as freedom loving as the people on this board. It won't happen. They come from different backgrounds and cultures with no traditions of such things. So I guess they'll enjoy economic freedoms while it lasts in this country, and then move on.

themao
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 8:57:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2002 9:46:37 PM EDT by choir-boy]
First time posting, hope this winds up in the right spot.

"If they were restricted or outlawed, the supply would dry up."

Yeah the guns will eventually dry up. Mean while we put down our guns for now and get shot up by the guy breaking into our homes. Ofcourse he survives (we sure don't) and passes the gun on to the next bad guy. But the guns will dry up... Let's see, an AK has a half life only slightly shorter than the A bomb, and the new polymers will out live the roaches. But the supply will eventually dry up...

Next argument will be get rid of ammunition. Like someone out there will not make ammunition on the black market to keep the bad guys supplied.

He might speak "logic," he just don't think it.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 10:09:29 PM EDT
I am an Asian Immigrant and I love guns, freedom, and I own 2 firearms, I guess not all of them are freedom hating....
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 10:30:56 PM EDT
Damn foreigners. Damn all non-WASP people, after all, people like Rosie O'Donell, Hillary Clinton, and white-bread middle America soccer-moms and their teenie-bopper, angsty 20-something children are major proponents of our cherished way of life.

I've been shooting since I was fourteen, I've served my country since I was eighteen, and will continue to do it for the forseeable future. I am half Arab, all Muslim. Some of the finest American patriots and defenders of freedom I know are immigrants or First Gens from places like Indonesia, Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt. They are Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish. On the flip side of the coin, some of the moraly loosest, most feeble minded and most ardent haters of true freedom, and the Second Amendment have been white bread middle american adults and youngsters who claimed to be Christian.

It may be disgusting to you folks to see 'foreigners' who are here, not because they wanted to be here, but because mommy and daddy came here to get rich, attack this country and its ideals. But you should be far more disgusted to see your own sons and daughters, cousins and grandchildren doing the same thing.

Last time I looked, the current M-TV generation is most ardently anti-'freedom the way you cherish it,' and last time I looked, the majority of those faces were as white and middle American as they get.

You'd better hope some of us immigrants from places other than Europe are pro-gun, because whites have about two generations left before they are decidedly the minority in this nation.
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 10:37:38 PM EDT
The supply would not dry up. Guns last a LONG time. The minute the supply started to look low, many industrious people would make guns in their garage. Since all guns are illegal, there is no reason not to make most of this new breed of garage guns fully automatic (nothing to lose at that point).

I can't say I wouldn't be one of them. By owning guns I will already be a criminal, so what's to stop me?
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 11:48:42 PM EDT
Sure the guns will dry up... if you don't keep 'em cleaned and lubricated! Oh... different kind of "dry up", I guess.

Try asking any anti the following:

1) Do you believe a human being, any human being, has the right to defend him- or herself, family or property against violent attack?

2) If not, why not?
If so, with what?

Personally, I think self-defense is a biological requirement, a duty, not a priviledge. All species protect themselves to the best of their ability, and humans are only different in that some choose to be defenseless. I will not let anyone else make that choice for me.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 3:03:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2002 3:08:26 AM EDT by shooter69]

Originally Posted By themao:
Yeah, I see this crap all the time at Wash U in St. Louis. I got in an argument with some Indians who claimed that America is a morally inferior country to India. These three Indians, all of whom were Hindu, told me this to my face. So then when I asked them why they are pursuing their premedical and ultimately medical school studies here in the states, they responded, OH OH, that's because our parents WORK HERE. Then when I asked could there be a reason WHY your parents work here, they got POed at me and stormed off.

themao



I am never surprised that there are racist, bigoted people in any particular country. That is the norm in this world. But when they emigrate to another country and say that shit!

What a bunch of ungrateful wretches!

Oh, and Indian doctors... please. Morality? My ass! Very few, if any, ever go back to India to help out their impoverished masses. No $$ in it. They stay put right here, often taking crappy, lower paid work from the government and inner city hospitals, so they can stay. India is a country with people burning bodies in the street. Who are they fooling.

Link Posted: 3/9/2002 6:04:50 AM EDT
Stupid articles written by ignorant students don't impress me.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 6:25:00 AM EDT
Well this guy is not an idiot. He's wrong, but he at least put some *small kernel* of reasoning into his arguments.

One of the things I think is interesting about foreigners coming to America is one of the things they do is take their new freedoms here very seriously. "Wow! In America I can have guns!" Witness the Korean shopkeepers during the L.A. riots. Because they aren't used to rights and exercising rights all their lives, they don't take them for granted like many Americans born here.

As for the immigrants who oppose rights instead of occasional government-granted privileges, they are welcome to return to whatever "paradise" they came from where they can enjoy less freedom.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 8:50:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GuardTanker:
Damn foreigners. Damn all non-WASP people, after all, people like Rosie O'Donell, Hillary Clinton, and white-bread middle America soccer-moms and their teenie-bopper, angsty 20-something children are major proponents of our cherished way of life.

I've been shooting since I was fourteen, I've served my country since I was eighteen, and will continue to do it for the forseeable future. I am half Arab, all Muslim. Some of the finest American patriots and defenders of freedom I know are immigrants or First Gens from places like Indonesia, Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt. They are Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish. On the flip side of the coin, some of the moraly loosest, most feeble minded and most ardent haters of true freedom, and the Second Amendment have been white bread middle american adults and youngsters who claimed to be Christian.

It may be disgusting to you folks to see 'foreigners' who are here, not because they wanted to be here, but because mommy and daddy came here to get rich, attack this country and its ideals. But you should be far more disgusted to see your own sons and daughters, cousins and grandchildren doing the same thing.

Last time I looked, the current M-TV generation is most ardently anti-'freedom the way you cherish it,' and last time I looked, the majority of those faces were as white and middle American as they get.

You'd better hope some of us immigrants from places other than Europe are pro-gun, because whites have about two generations left before they are decidedly the minority in this nation.



Well then sir, you must be a rare breed. I agree with you that whites are to blame for much of the socialism and "white-guilt trip" in this country. We have shot ourselves in the foot with some of this racial crap. The so-called "white elite" is using a lot of this stuff as a power grab so they can run our lives. Take a look at the anti-discrimination laws and the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can't even fire someone today in your own company because of these totalitarian laws.

However, in general it is wishful thinking for me to believe that the majority of people coming from Asia, India and even Africa will understand the concepts of private property rights and individual liberties. They don't come from any traditions of such things, so what makes anyone think that the majority of them will pop into America and say: HEY, I LOVE THE 2nd AMENDMENT!

There is nothing racist about what I said, I'm just basing my opinions on history and observations.

themao
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 5:40:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GuardTanker:
Damn foreigners. Damn all non-WASP people, after all, people like Rosie O'Donell, Hillary Clinton, and white-bread middle America soccer-moms and their teenie-bopper, angsty 20-something children are major proponents of our cherished way of life.

I've been shooting since I was fourteen, I've served my country since I was eighteen, and will continue to do it for the forseeable future. I am half Arab, all Muslim. Some of the finest American patriots and defenders of freedom I know are immigrants or First Gens from places like Indonesia, Japan, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt. They are Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish. On the flip side of the coin, some of the moraly loosest, most feeble minded and most ardent haters of true freedom, and the Second Amendment have been white bread middle american adults and youngsters who claimed to be Christian.

It may be disgusting to you folks to see 'foreigners' who are here, not because they wanted to be here, but because mommy and daddy came here to get rich, attack this country and its ideals. But you should be far more disgusted to see your own sons and daughters, cousins and grandchildren doing the same thing.

Last time I looked, the current M-TV generation is most ardently anti-'freedom the way you cherish it,' and last time I looked, the majority of those faces were as white and middle American as they get.

You'd better hope some of us immigrants from places other than Europe are pro-gun, because whites have about two generations left before they are decidedly the minority in this nation.



I think you need to re-read the original post and all of the replies. You're responding to one or two words, not the entire post.

Pay attention.
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