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Posted: 4/21/2021 8:53:30 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 4/21/2021 9:11:20 AM EDT
[#2]
So looking at all the pictures, this is 100% background dependant.
If I lived/worked/played/hunted/operated in the desert, the lighter colors would work much better than a dark color as far as blending in the background. In a dark wooded area with heavy foliage you are going for the darker greens but not black. Not only do they work in the daytime but at night...Am I understanding this right? |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 10:18:14 AM EDT
[#3]
I can't find my pictures at the moment but I tested (Omni 7 with and without IR) AOR1, desert MARPAT, and commercial "desert digital" from a few different sources and saw radically different performance. The AOR1 webbing and cordura used by Eagle, LBT and Crye and the AOR1 Nyco used by Crye and Patagonia is really good. Desert MARPAT was far behind it, and the commercial stuff is a mixed bag. Completely unrelated, but the genuine Tiger Stripe Products materials were better than expected.
Quoted: PS you have to get genuine kit for the full effect and only wash with soap flakes. I've switched to a different detergent that's better at getting the funk out and doesn't have optical brighteners as a side bonus, but I've not noticed my gear significantly changing IR performance after washing it with standard stuff. It's possible whatever I was using before didn't have them either and that's why, but I got "lucky" once and had a pair of Multicam Cryes get accidentally thrown into a regular wash with bog standard Tide. Compared how they looked after that to recent pictures, and didn't notice much difference. Caveat being it wasn't at distance with high intensity IR illumination, of course. |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 10:28:26 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 4/21/2021 10:37:08 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 4/21/2021 12:00:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GREAT THREAD, thank you! I was noticing (19) the DPM seemed to pop. That's interesting to me because during one of our NV classes we did a lot of jungle lanes and the target usually missed by the most people is a tall Ivan that is covered in an old DPM chem suit top. Maybe it's our terrain but it blends really well. It's the old skewl DPM from the 80's/early 90's not the multicam look alike stuff. That class taught me that solid color anything was horrible in that environment. I thought OD was really good for day and night use. It is unless other guy has NODs. |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 2:09:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That class taught me that solid color anything was horrible in that environment. I thought OD was really good for day and night use. It is unless other guy has NODs. How about that solid black Gortex jacket on the last jungle lane? And people think I'm crazy when I tell them to avoid solid black gear where possible. |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 8:56:02 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 4/21/2021 9:34:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about that solid black Gortex jacket on the last jungle lane? And people think I'm crazy when I tell them to avoid solid black gear where possible. It shouted, "Here I am!" Seeing the shape of AR's was another thing that shocked me. |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 10:13:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That class taught me that solid color anything was horrible in that environment. I thought OD was really good for day and night use. It is unless other guy has NODs. My main color for everything has been od/Ranger green and woodland. It disappears into everything during the daytime here. Below is my load out during a tnvc class.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 6:21:30 PM EDT
[#11]
I just went down to my other closet and looked at a bunch of stuff under 940nm. I'll tell you what - some Chinese stuff I have, would get lost if you drop it in the woods, while some "Cry once, buy once" stuff looks like a Vegas casino.
CQR Multicam Combat Shirt - zero glow for MC portion. Krydex Multicam Combat Shirt - neon sign for MC portion. Milspec-Monkey Boss Beaver, Coyote - zero glow. Milspec-Monkey ADAPT Pack, Ranger Green - neon sign. Here's the funny part: TMC rip-off of the ADAPT, Multicam - zero glow. Helikon-Tex Training Mini Rig, RALxxxx (basically Ranger Green) - neon sign. Pieced together Chest Rig (3 separate items) off of AliExpress, using a replica Crye Airlight Harness - zero glow, except for one waist strap that actually looks like legit Multicam webbing. Templar's Gear Crusader ROC Plate Carrier, Ranger Green - zero glow. This is a cool little friggen experiment GHOz - thanks for the prompt. When I'm Ricky Reconning up to some baddies, I know what not to wear...or just shoot the f'er shining a light at me 
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Posted: 4/24/2021 10:58:55 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:51:13 AM EDT
[#13]
I miss the old bowflage 'removable' paint, we used it with great success 15+ years ago on rifles and gear and it would not reflect IR at all, krylon on the other hand would practically glow when looked at thru a set of 7's or a 14.
I'll have to check out the video and see if anything has changed. Quote HistoryQuoted: This just came up in my YT feed. As a tie in to the OP, he talks about various types of paint and compares them under NV. With so many folks "rattle can" painting their rifles, this could be useful info.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm5_qr7i7-s |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:59:15 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So looking at all the pictures, this is 100% background dependant. If I lived/worked/played/hunted/operated in the desert, the lighter colors would work much better than a dark color as far as blending in the background. In a dark wooded area with heavy foliage you are going for the darker greens but not black. Not only do they work in the daytime but at night...Am I understanding this right? FWIW....in the Az desert scrub brush, desert marpat trousers, and a woodland marpat blouse work great at breaking up the human silhouette in daylight and I'm sure it helps at night as well. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:06:23 AM EDT
[#15]
it's likely been mentioned (I just look at the pretty pictures) but if any of the gear/clothing has been washed in commercial detergent it really can make stuff glow due to "optical brightners".
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Posted: 4/26/2021 12:56:05 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 4/26/2021 5:26:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes - you have to use traditional soap flakes :) I'd guess y'all have different stuff down there, but on the off chance it's available here what specifically do you use? Or alternatively what do you look for when selecting? |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 9:51:04 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 4/27/2021 2:01:40 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 4/28/2021 5:12:53 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 4/29/2021 7:38:34 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 4/30/2021 7:11:57 AM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 4/30/2021 8:00:48 AM EDT
[#23]
It seems like the CP G3 stuff would be the best?
I would think being too black would be almost as bad as being too light if you are trying to hide from NV? Do you happen to have any info on the NV/thermal specialty camo? |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 8:27:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Once you have washed your camo with commercial detergent ( optical brighteners) can you reverse it?
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Posted: 4/30/2021 9:35:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once you have washed your camo with commercial detergent ( optical brighteners) can you reverse it? Just ordered some UV Killer, we'll see if it works. Even if true, it may not have an effect against IR. Side note, most detergents that are marketed as dye free still contain optical brighteners. You will have to deliberately search for detergents without brighteners or use the soap flake approach. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 1:03:11 PM EDT
[#27]
All Free and Clear is on that list, but it is definitely not free of brightening agents.
Here's a bottle. "100% FREE of perfumes and dyes."  Back of same bottle. No mention of brighteners.  Different bottle of same product.  Back of bottle #2. Contains "florescent brightener 5".  And finally, the contents of bottle #1 under UV. Wonderful. 
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Posted: 4/30/2021 1:51:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All Free and Clear is on that list, but it is definitely not free of brightening agents. Here's a bottle. "100% FREE of perfumes and dyes." https://i.postimg.cc/DwmNhMfm/IMG-20210430-120213796-2.jpg Back of same bottle. No mention of brighteners. https://i.postimg.cc/V6HSxvKJ/IMG-20210430-120256318.jpg Different bottle of same product. https://i.postimg.cc/vB1fhCyF/IMG-20210430-120333674-2.jpg Back of bottle #2. Contains "florescent brightener 5". https://i.postimg.cc/x1xXZgt0/IMG-20210430-120324800-2.jpg And finally, the contents of bottle #1 under UV. Wonderful. https://i.postimg.cc/KjDzD51h/IMG-20210430-120530756.jpg I could make a joke.... 
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Posted: 4/30/2021 1:59:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once you have washed your camo with commercial detergent ( optical brighteners) can you reverse it? |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 2:19:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could make a joke.... Yummy.  Apologies for the jacked up links, I'm clearly still figuring this out. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 2:42:32 PM EDT
[#31]
I appreciate the work for sure, but without comparisons to what you are camouflaging against what is the point?
The pics need to be hanging in the woods or in your backyard. Also need to be at various distances, because camo/concealment up close is an entirely different animal than at distance. People see patterns and movement, especially though NODs, because the regular colors you are used to identifying are all gone. I have spent a good bit of time looking at different things through NODs and take vids when we can. Couple of points. If you're thinking you need to buy some sort of camo, you're wrong. What more important is what the stuff is made of. Different materials, not different colors reflect IR light differently. Faded cotton blue jeans (100% cotton) would be better at hiding from someone in NODs than someone in MARPAT made out of a synthetic. My number one choice is multicam stuff that is 100% cotton. And of course, no brightening detergents. A video discussing looking though NODs and how things look, with live vid. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 10:06:28 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 5/1/2021 10:59:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate the work for sure, but without comparisons to what you are camouflaging against what is the point? The pics need to be hanging in the woods or in your backyard. Also need to be at various distances, because camo/concealment up close is an entirely different animal than at distance. People see patterns and movement, especially though NODs, because the regular colors you are used to identifying are all gone. I have spent a good bit of time looking at different things through NODs and take vids when we can. Couple of points. If you're thinking you need to buy some sort of camo, you're wrong. What more important is what the stuff is made of. Different materials, not different colors reflect IR light differently. Faded cotton blue jeans (100% cotton) would be better at hiding from someone in NODs than someone in MARPAT made out of a synthetic. My number one choice is multicam stuff that is 100% cotton. And of course, no brightening detergents. A video discussing looking though NODs and how things look, with live vid. @currahee who makes 100% cotton multicam clothing? |
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Posted: 5/1/2021 11:44:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ^^^ I hear you loud and clear  but also keep in mind I'm looking out to 1200nm as well (not just analogue). I would say there are no perfect solutions but simply imperfect compromises. What is more important is the thinking:- (a) headspace/mindset ------->tactics------->skillset----------->type of equipment and (b) conditions------------>activity------------>equipment (materials) Cotton and wool are superb materials and the most comfortable to wear however there are trades offs - for example cotton, when wet is very hard to dry and wicks body heat leading to (in harsh) conditions hypothermia. Equally, that can be fixed to some extent by very dense weaves and coatings--------->expense. Likewise, waterproof synthetics can be made IR resistant. I have a piece of this from the late 90s - however, on issue it was about $800 per piece. 99% of the time the best cam is an old bland cotton shirt and jeans (e.g look like everyone else) with sturdy comfortable boots, its the other 1% where there's a problem All true, but I would simplify headspace/mindset ------->tactics------->skillset----------->type of equipment to training/practice -----> equipment or (since I like greater than/less than signs) training/practice > equipment If we're gonna defend minecraft world you need to be prepared to do it with whatever is at hand. I've got some bucks put in to night vision and thermal, but the value is not in having them, the value is in knowing how to use them and what they do. On the subject of clothing and cotton's ability to keep you warm (I really don't worry about keeping warm, look at my location) base layers keep you warm, outer layers keep you camouflaged. |
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Posted: 5/1/2021 12:03:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @currahee who makes 100% cotton multicam clothing? First let me correct myself, it's not necessarily 100% it should be "the more cotton the better" The shirt I'm wearing in the vid I posted is a 20% nylon multicam (t shirt not combat shirt) from amazon and it disappears. The pants that do not disappear are some "tactical pants" with a greater amount of nylon. In that video, under those conditions, it would be better if I was wearing old blue-jeans. My message is not to tell you what to buy. It is to implore you to go wander around in different environments with NODs on looking at your buddies doing the same. Just knowing how shadows behave is, mind altering when it comes to thinking of how sneak up on something (tactics from the above posts) Or in learning how many IR illuminators there are in the typical neighborhood. If you have to have gear advice it's go buy actual USGI stuff, because there is some voodoo there. In leu of that pay attention to the cotton/nylon blend, more (natural fiber) the better. Also, have a bag full of burlap strips to cover gear. A quick note on why. Cotton is made of cellulose, it reflects the light the same way plants do. The same is true of USGI CARC paint, which is cellulose based, not oil based. |
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Posted: 5/2/2021 2:18:39 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 5/3/2021 9:13:27 AM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 5/7/2021 12:19:12 AM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 5/11/2021 6:56:32 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 5/13/2021 9:37:14 PM EDT
[#40]
I don't know what old Krylon was like, but the more recent (last 10+ years) ultra-flat camo colors seem to work fine under NV. Bowflage seems to work a bit better but some colors aren't very durable and the cans are usually tiny/expensive.
Optical brighteners aren't a really big deal on some fabric types; you'll only see a bright UV response in very high-wear areas where there is pilling and the fabric is white-ish under regular light. Something already bright like UCP or 3 color desert would probably suffer a lot more. |
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Posted: 5/23/2021 6:25:12 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 5/23/2021 11:07:51 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 5/24/2021 10:53:17 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 5/30/2021 7:00:31 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 7/14/2021 11:24:43 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 7/19/2021 11:13:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Did some tests yesterday and had a few takeaways. Keep in mind this was just done with what I had on hand. YMMV and all that.
1. Army "Scorpion W2" appeared even more dull and "featureless" under NVG's than true Multicam. 2. Poly/Cotton Multicam seems to show a more distinct and effective camo pattern than my preferred Ny/Co ripstop material. 3. The body of combat shirts can get crazy. I looked at a Multicam Truspec hot weather (Ny/Co sleeves), Multicam Truspec cold weather (Poly/Co sleeves), Multicam Drifire, Tan Vert-X, and a AOR2/NWU Type 3 or whatever they call it Navy Frog shirt. The wicking "body" on all but the NWU Frog shirt glowed neon under NVG's. 4. Ranger Green G3 Cryes looked like straight black but the velcro and stretch panels on them glowed bright neon. 5. Coyote Paraclete RAV glowed neon. 6. M81 woodland (Ny/Co ripstop) looks pretty good under NVGs. 7. It doesn't take supplemental IR to get the glowing look. Some stuff just looks that way under ambient conditions when viewed through NVG's. All of the stuff I was looking at has been washed with all sorts of detergent so who knows if that had any impact. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 3:15:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Sparky-kb....I never found (and I tried) any material, professional (coated) military or otherwise that beat 100% cotton, linen, and similar vegetable fiber clothing against NV. That stuff looks exactly like bushes under IR and is easily dyed or purchased in earthy colors. Cheap too.
When the sun coming up presents a threat of detection, a simple ghillie head cover and an appropriate light weight camo net or sheet covers you. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:48:05 AM EDT
[#48]
I actually wash all my camo clothing in a special detergent for hunters that is suppose to have no brighteners in it at all and then I treat it with a special spray to reduce IR signature that is designed for hunters. I might be a victim to marketing, but from what I understand even those detergents that do not list something as an optical brightener may still have chemicals that they use to brighten the clothing after being washed.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:49:38 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anodized aluminum under NV shows you the value of Krylon. Although I'm seeing a lot more anodized firearm parts that seem to have some sort of IR effective dye, the last few years. That's interesting and something I have not considered. Is it only Krylon that reduces IR signature of weapons or are there other brands that do the same just as well? |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 12:52:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Great thread. It's also worth noting that maps under IR or even red light can become unreadable, depending on how they're printed and the color scheme. I learned this the hard way during a night land nav course.
Also, I was helping RO a night shoot and found I couldn't see the LCD shot timer through my nods. The screen was completely blank under IR. |
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