OMG.  

did we ever get an update on the ones that where supposed to come saturady/monday? or is that what we are looking at?

Yeah I got the housing kit in. It's AGM, same "glass". Comes in an AGM branded box. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail and write a whole thread about it, too busy with other things.

Did you do a weight comparison between the suspect and known good glass?

How soon until these start showing up on Fleabay for $100.00? Not long I hope...

Did the AGM shipping monkey use half a roll of anti-static bubble wrap on your order?
The components are cheaper, but I think they ate up half their margin on packing materials with my lenses. Haven't seen this much pink bubble wrap since I worked with gas generators and initiators.

I'm going to blame the following on tequila and dealing with way too many assholes today, but the firearms industry and the nightvision industry seemed to be filled with people peddling shit, and there are a large number of customers who either don't know they are getting shit, or don't understand why polishing a turd is not acceptable.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but as this seems to come up repeatedly, specs are written for a reason. I don't give a shit if uncle-daddy-grandpa didn't teach you what the big words meant before you tried to bid on a contract or build per print.
I don't care if you can't get the agreed upon product in time because your dog ate the invoice.

If something similar happened with parts at my job as an engineer, I would have had QA start an investigation and written the lot off as non-conforming. The supplier who fucked up then gets to remedy the situation, if they do great, if not they get blacklisted. If the supplier passed on cocked up parts from their sub-contractor, tough shit, they get to deal with it. Don't care if it is a 30 hour fix or a 30 second fix, I don't fix external fuckups, I have to deal with enough stupid shit my coworkers do.

It's real simple, if I buy product A, don't do me a favor and substitute product B. If you want to help, let me know that product A is not available and that I will have to choose something else or wait. If product B may not be as good, let me know upfront, so I can make the decision, that way if I don't like it the only person I can be pissed at is myself.

At least UNV has the two different suppliers listed now on their website, that would have probably prevented or mitigated a good portion of this shitshow.

Drunk posting; gotta love it.  But there's a lot of truth in that there post.  Having spent the majority of my adult life in mfg, mostly as an assembly line monkey, I have seen this kind of shit up close and personal.  The main issue here, which doesn't seem to get much notice, is that business ethics have gone in the toilet over the past few years.  I have seen this in aerospace, steel, firearms, and the "tactical" gear industries.  Seems it's no longer frowned upon to be an absolute shit-bag, as long as if affects the bottom line in a positive way.  In fact, this is applauded in some quarters.  So I would submit this is more pervasive than some think.  If some of you guys work where this shit wouldn't fly, then I salute you; you are lucky to be there.

I have been reading threads here a long time.  Many times I've heard "this _ industry is the dirtiest I've ever seen"; body armor, tactical gear, firearms, and now NV.  So I'm seeing a trend line here, which confirms my own personal experiences.  Me thinks we just have to accept the fact that personal morals and ethics have seen a huge change, in as far as what's publicly acceptable.  Time was when these things came up, the folks involved would be publicly shamed, and corrections promptly made.  Nowadays, there's not much moral indignation, which just encourages more of this shit.  So I think you have to look at this "anything goes" society we have these days to see why a lot of this crap is going on.

Case in point, you now have parts flooding the market, that LOTS of folks SHOULD know better than to try and pass them off as, well, "the parts that are of the same quality as we have come to expect" for lack of better term.  Mil-spec seems to be some how tainted by all this, for whatever reason.  

And now, for a little fairy tale.  (You guys know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story right?)  So once upon a time, I worked at a place, making "widgets" let's say.  We were having trouble getting the parts to fit and function together.  So the line monkeys would say, hey these parts you're giving us don't fit.  So QC would take them, and study them, and measure them, and compare them to the drawings and so forth.  Then management would have a big meeting to discuss all this.  Then there'd be a big employee meeting where we were told the parts are just fine; it's just you guys are too stupid to know how to make them right.  This went on for quite awhile, until one day the king sold his widget factory, for a hefty profit, and split the scene.  Low and behold it was later determined that indeed the parts were fucked up, and that the king knowingly bought said fucked-up parts from a vendor, where upon he got a kick-back to accept them, and then paid off QC to keep quiet about it.  But at the time, if you said the king and his court were wrong, you were severely chastised.  In fact, if you file fit the fucked-up parts, to make them fit, then tape an unmodified part, along with the modified one to a QC report, and explained what it took to make it fit, your reports were quickly circular filed by QC.  So eventually the line monkey got discouraged and quit, or was fired, depending on who you talked to.

So when I read about this here little drama, I can't help but look back at what I saw, and then wonder about what's really going on here.  

Legal disclaimer:  The stories told here do not represent any actual people, places, or events.  The opinions expressed here are from an old bitter clinger who is probably nuts.  Any similarity to actual people, places, or events is merely coincidental.  The reader assumes all risks of actually believing any of this shit.

@tlandoe07 how did it due on the soldering iron test?

Your such a tease.

I am on the edge of my seat...

C'mon I'm dying here.  Give us the scoop.

I am assuming they passed the soldering iron test.

Awwwww

Sorry for the hold up guys I got busy with some other stuff.

Ordered some glass to test, just came in today and if you were wondering, no, it didn’t pass the soldering iron test.

It’s plastic. Soldering tip went through it like butter.

I’d like to take a second to give a hearty “GFY” to all the guys who sided with the vendor and tried to make it seem like I made all this up because I had an axe to grind.

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Holy shit.

That's incredibly shitty.

Damn

Mil spec bruh

I completely agree with you that those lenses are subpar. It’s also apparent that these lenses are being sold through multiple legit vendors. A lot of these vendors are very trusted which leads me to believe that they were probably given bogus information. I don’t know the circumstances or the sales pitch that lead up to all these vendors buying these subpar lenses, but to just single out one of them is kind of a little shitty on your part. And then to tell everybody that has had extremely pleasant dealings with the vendor to go fuck themselves is even more shitty on your part. But you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that.

Disagree whole heartedly. The vendor came on to this post, defended the "glass", then threatened to sue people.


And it turned out to be plastic lenses.

Lol. I’m sorry you missed the first 2-5th pages in this thread.

I’ve done a lot of digging and research into this, and all at the expense of my time and money for your benefit. I could have just kept it all to myself. I have about nine confirmed vendors who supply this glass (I purchased samples from all of them), it’s not just UNV. UNV was just “patient zero” so to speak.

Feel free to do your own research as to who Apache industries and AGM actually are, you might be surprised.

And yeah, if you really want to tell me I’m being shitty because I blew the whistle on a big night vision company that thought it could hoodwink you out of big money for crap glass, then you especially are who that type of comment was directed toward.

ETA: This is particularly true when you consider how much this stuff costs to the vendor, it’s hovering right around $100. The markup on it is between 120-150%.

That is highly interesting, and something I was not aware of. I wonder why it is they don’t have the edge distortion? Perhaps Plastic in itself isn’t a bad thing, I think the problem is the way the lenses are finished out. For example, some of the ones I have had bubbles in the edges, and a distinct fisheye.

Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any better, man was I wrong. So who’s standing by with the pro-UNV memes? Seemed like last time the anti-UNV memes got made awfully quickly

Man. Not gonna lie. That was a roller coaster.

Am I still supposed to go fuck myself now or not? Im confused.

I Definitely have verified the edge distortion on six different pieces of this stuff, and also have confirmed lack of AR coatings on the objective lenses as well which results in considerable haloing and flaring. And it’s worth pointing out as well, when I say bubbles I actually mean just that- tiny little pinprick bubbles that look like the kind that get suspended in poorly done marine epoxy finishes. That’s in addition to the mounding mark. There is also a distinctly distorted ring around the lens on all examples I have seen so far. But you’re right, I’m just the peanut gallery.

I’m not trying to say I’m right about everything, and I too learn something new every day. I have no motive to go around trying to start beef with night vision vendors. If you want to be an asshole, fine go ahead. Call me stupid all you want, I’m not the one selling $117 eye pieces for $240 and then threatening to sue customers openly on the internet.

This thread was never about you. You made it about you by being a total douche nozzle. You sell shit glass at unfair prices, and you’re not the only ones.

You have my address in your records, feel free hit me up with a court summons if you’re still feeling spicy about getting the suits involved.

Well before you tell people to GFY you may want to flip that puppy over and try your test again.

Lol I have the price list from AGM dude

Yeah I don’t know how we are this far along with this topic without this basic knowledge

saw that coming

I have followed this thread from the beginning. I can’t discredit UNV over this one incident when if you look at their past they have an impeccable customer service record. I think Apache and AGM are the real crooks in this situation, if in fact their lenses are as junk as you say, I’ve never laid my hands on a set so I don’t know from experience. I’ve paid very close attention to the civilian night vision industry for the past 10 years or more and everything I’ve witnessed doesn’t give me any desire to go fuck myself over this. I have no beef with you or anybody else on here, I’m just expressing my opinion as I see it.

I would tend to agree with you on that. Particularly about AGM and Apache as companies. There’s a whole spectrum of reasons why this glass (and other components and assemblies) are being sold by probably everyone at this point. They’re cheap, and available, and I’ve learned that AGM will pretty much sell to anyone. Hell, I know of people who have placed orders directly with them and completely bypassed all their vendors, meanwhile AGM holds their vendors to a MAP policy, but will sell at dealer cost direct to consumers.

Do I necessarily think that everyone is trying to scam customers? No. I probably should apologize for making a statement in the heat of the moment, and I do apologize for those uncalled for statements.

But this is still janky glass.

No doubt Apache an AGM seem shady AF. From what you have showed on this thread their optics are definitely lesser quality than a Carson, but they are also far better quality than the actual knock off China  lenses that have been displayed on this forum in the past. Honestly, I think if the price was lower on them they could be a good alternative for somebody on a budget.

It’s hard to reconcile that with your initial post in this entire thread where you posted your UNV invoice.  You edited that out later though.  And you made a statement not too long ago about UNV being patient zero and you calling out a large NV company for hoodwinking their customers.  It’s kind of disingenuous to say this was never about UNV when the whole thing was started with you calling them out and even less than a few hours ago you were posting about them by name and saying they are hoodwinking customers.  You have to expect people to respond to stuff like that when you are questioning their integrity.

I want to understand what is going on with this stuff as much as anyone but to be surprised when someone defends themselves doesn’t make much sense to me.

The sad thing about this thread is that instead of everybody learning something, apologizing where apologies are due and building on the ARFCOM knowledge base, this will just play out as another Geissele vs LaRue where vendors hate each other, pundits purse swing with renewed vigor and trust in the NV industry as a whole slips a couple more notches.

Wow, the point is a fucking soldering iron went through a -14 obj lens.  Who saw that coming.

When we talk about this guy attacking that vendor, and he has the right to defend himself, etc.  Well by whatever happenstance, this vendor had plastic lenses, where we all (well I think most of us) expect glass.  Not to get into whether he was aware of this or hoodwinked, the fact is he had plastic glass.  Now I guess opinions differ here, but I for one would like to know I'm being sold plastic glass.  

I guess the 64 dollar question is how does this plastic lens compare to Carson glass.  Is it a viable alternative, and if so, at what price point?  

I guess the missing fact here is what does a Carson glass part cost wholesale.  If we had all three prices then we could maybe make an informed decision here.

My assumption is that plastic lenses will scratch easier than glass.  So unless you're super careful with sacrificial lenses, you will see increased wear on plastic vs glass.  Also glass might polish out easier than plastic.  If so, then I would expect to pay less for a plastic lens.  Does this sound about right or not?

Up above UNV put a soldering iron through a Carson lens as well, shits sad because I am over needing one for a beater and here two got sacrificed for nothing.

All lenses have a plastic portion as well as a glass portion including the ones in this thread. They aren’t “plastic glass” any more than any other milspec lense assembly.

I`ve been wearing "plastic" glass on my face since I was 5 yrs old, actually it`s Lexan (polycarbonate) Optically it`s just as good as glass, lighter and more impact resistant. the only advantage of glass is that it is harder to scratch. The inside lens element is not exposed so it doesn`t matter. I never knew the inside lens was plastic, that`s good news to me, I have some oculars that have fine scratches on the inside, now I can fix them with the eyeglass scratch repair fluid that only works on polycarbonate lenses

Im interested to hear your feed back after you finish reading the thread to here.

So I am to understand that every mil-spec lens has some plastic in the assembly?  But at least some portion is glass?  If so did not know this.

Then there's the new lenses that are plastic all the way through, judging from the pics.  

So again, the question is, what is the practical difference between the two, and the wholesale price between the two.

It's not a matter of OMG mil-spec lenses have plastic too; if this is so, then it is what it is.  It's a matter of how cheaper are these new lenses vs Carson/Harris, etc, and so why should we pay the same retail price for them.  

This is the heart of the matter.  The market is being flooded with "different" parts, that are much cheaper (we are guessing) at wholesale, but retail prices remain the same and the consumer is being fucked.

I've noticed nobody wants to volunteer the wholesale price of a Carson lens.  That is the missing piece in this little drama.

Front what was said the apache lens cost 117, I have heard the price for carson is about 200 at the final step, ie the assembler. I am sure that larger companies get the carson cheaper as they can probably but enough to go direct.

This would be interesting to find out.  It would appear that known quality lenses go for "around" 200 wholesale, and 280 full retail.  As opposed to 117 for the new stuff.  So evidence to the contrary, it looks like roughly half the cost, and (more than) double the profit margin.

So yeah, it's not that I don't want the new "higher-plastic content" lenses; I'd just like a price break for using them, if what were seeing here turns out to be accurate.

@Diz

I think you either aren’t reading all of the posts, or just still don’t understand it.

All of the PVS14 ocular lenses, Even mil-spec Carsons, are made with glass on the outer portion and polycarbonate on the inner.

So has anyone done any testing on the optical differences between the Carson & the AGM lenses?

I understand that the lenses are a combo of glass and plastic, granted.  But it would appear that the newer stuff is all plastic, since the soldering iron went straight through them?

Again the questions are, what's the practical difference, and should we be paying the same thing for it.

I dont think theyre all plastic. I think the materials used are the same.

I do think there might be a quality difference and how much is a good point to raise.

The sad thing is this thread has some useful info but now we have a vendor threatening to sue people for libel and an OP telling everyone to go fuck themselves and editing/changing their story.  LOL what a cluster.

"BOOM" UNV just dropped the mic wit da the smoooooooking gun.

OP: being a respected member her on ARF you should at the minimum "Nuke" this thread because we know how someone will Google something pertain to milspec glass etc, half way read through this thread and start spreading the rumor that UNV is selling/using subpar Chinese glass on their NODs.

Also time to "CowBoy up" say "Sorry" not just "wow this is interesting", I F'ed up" to UNV as well as all the other posters you told to "F" themselves and this is at a minimum IMHO. If you really wanted to undo the wrong pay UNV for the rear "MilSpec" glass they ruined.