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Posted: 11/9/2017 5:32:11 PM EDT
I don't have experience with night vision...yet. Will get a PVS14 in a couple of months.
Out of curiosity are you able to tell how well animals see at night compared to some of the later generations of night vision, for instance a PVS-14 unfilmed WP? Do they spot you easily or does it seem like you're able to see them first? |
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Can you be more specific than "animals"?
There are a few different kinds. |
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Most animals don't "see" the same wavelengths that humans see. And many animals, if not all, have other senses superior to those of humans. It's the total package that counts.
As an example, take the average house cat. Sees very well in low light. Hearing is extremely acute, and hears frequencies humans cannot sense. Sense of smell is better than that of a human. Compared to most animals, we humans are relatively blind, deaf, and can't smell. Just google "How do feral pigs (or whatever animal) see? More importantly also google how they hear, smell, and so forth. |
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I have consistently owned and used NV since 94 and in my opinion whitetail deer do not see all that well at night. Around 95 I was out predator hunting on what was a pretty dark night. I was standing on one side of a rural dirt road and I had two small bucks grooming each other on the other side which was about ten feet away, they had no idea I was there (FYI showered, scent lock, sprayed down with no wind).
During deer season I will often just stay on stand after the sun goes down just to watch the deer in the food plots. It is amazing that on nights with no moon I am convinced that the deer cannot see very far. I will have "X" number of deer in the plot and they will hear something and all alert to the noise. Now from my perch I can clearly see that the noise is another deer coming into the plots but the deer in the plot cannot. Even as the approaching deer comes into what would be a clear view during the day, talking under fifty yards they still cannot see the incoming deer so they all bolt from the plot. NV devices have all been Gen 3 run of the mill tubes. |
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Quoted:
I have consistently owned and used NV since 94 and in my opinion whitetail deer do not see all that well at night. Around 95 I was out predator hunting on what was a pretty dark night. I was standing on one side of a rural dirt road and I had two small bucks grooming each other on the other side which was about ten feet away, they had no idea I was there (FYI showered, scent lock, sprayed down with no wind). During deer season I will often just stay on stand after the sun goes down just to watch the deer in the food plots. It is amazing that on nights with no moon I am convinced that the deer cannot see very far. I will have "X" number of deer in the plot and they will hear something and all alert to the noise. Now from my perch I can clearly see that the noise is another deer coming into the plots but the deer in the plot cannot. Even as the approaching deer comes into what would be a clear view during the day, talking under fifty yards they still cannot the incoming deer so they all bolt from the plot. NV devices have all been Gen 3 run of the mill tubes. View Quote |
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I didn't specify because I want to know about any animals you might have experience with View Quote If you go out in the woods at night with a red floodlight, they will run around uninhibited by the light. They think it is dark. |
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i walk my dog in the woods behind my house. When there's lots of tree cover, he moves a little slower but can weave around trees.
No problem for him if there's any ambient light. But he can't find small things like bumpers when i play fetch with him at night, he can get close then has to smell his way to the bumper or toy. |
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i walk my dog in the woods behind my house. When there's lots of tree cover, he moves a little slower but can weave around trees. No problem for him if there's any ambient light. But he can't find small things like bumpers when i play fetch with him at night, he can get close then has to smell his way to the bumper or toy. View Quote Their world is a world of scent, with vision just to keep from bumping into things. |
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From decades of experience.
Hogs have a reputation of not being able to see well, but well is relative. My experience is that they see about as well as we humans do. The one exemption to that was I was hunting WAY back in the day with a Gen One Night Owl or some such. It was pitch black. I literally couldn't see my hand in front of my face and I typically see well in the dark compared to most others. It was just a completely overcast night with thick cloud cover and no light. I had a pig come in and "he" wasn't bouncing off of trees. So he could "see" better than me. Because I could not have navigated my way to that spot without a light. Those "Red Blind" pigs could also see the little dim red light from that Night Owl. Of course bow hunting from right from on top of them is a lot different than gun hunting them. I was trying to use a 10 ft tripod and was 15 yards away. ------------------------------------------ Really WAY back in the day, like when it was first legalized to hunt pigs at night, you could flop a red spot light on them from 50 yards away and there was no noticeable change in their behavior and start blasting. It didn't take long before that didn't work anymore. Less than about 2 years, that tactic was done anywhere I hunted from East to West Texas. If you turned on a red spotlight, you were shooting at running pigs. ------------------------ I have used the method of a fixed feeder and a red light that comes on a dark and goes off at dawn for over a now. There is a definite shadow line on the ground because I have my lights about 20 feet up shining at a feeder that is 20 yards away. You can see the whole clearing because of the illumination and my feeder cast corn far past the cone of light. Most pigs will come right in and feed under the feeder. However there have been enough of them that stop at that line to notice a trend that a few will never step into that light. Even though I can see them as well as the rest, they will not step into the "light". The follow the shadow all the way around and will not step across the line they supposedly can't see. They just eat the corn that is outside the light. Usually it is big boars, but sometimes it is the sow that is with babies. At the same time some sows and boars will ignore it and come right in. There is no way to know the when and the what other than it is individuals. I don't shoot as soon as pigs come in. I watch them. I get to observe them for long periods of time from an up close position. I learned a thing or two bow hunting in Africa, I have a box blind with sealed doors and windows and keep them closed to keep my scent inside, so I'm able to observe stuff that I was never able to see before because eventually you will get busted if you are that close if you give them long enough to get around the tree you climbed or if one of them catches a molecule of your scent from a swirl of wind or if one slips around down wind and spooks the rest of them. So they can see something even though supposedly they can't. |
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Quote is from here.
"Color Perception Pigvision Institute studies showed that pigs see primarily red, green and blue wavelengths. When these colors are combined -- for example, in a multicolored pig food with red, green and blue pellets -- pigs will display a stronger visual response than when facing one color. Additionally, pigs tend to see objects as solid color; they may see the blue sky, but not perceive clouds or rainbows in the sky." I'm not sure who said pigs are red-blind. Some claim pigs can see a little way into what is the infra-red for humans. |
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Quoted:
From decades of experience. Hogs have a reputation of not being able to see well, but well is relative. My experience is that they see about as well as we humans do. The one exemption to that was I was hunting WAY back in the day with a Gen One Night Owl or some such. It was pitch black. I literally couldn't see my hand in front of my face and I typically see well in the dark compared to most others. It was just a completely overcast night with thick cloud cover and no light. I had a pig come in and "he" wasn't bouncing off of trees. So he could "see" better than me. Because I could not have navigated my way to that spot without a light. Those "Red Blind" pigs could also see the little dim red light from that Night Owl. Of course bow hunting from right from on top of them is a lot different than gun hunting them. I was trying to use a 10 ft tripod and was 15 yards away. ------------------------------------------ Really WAY back in the day, like when it was first legalized to hunt pigs at night, you could flop a red spot light on them from 50 yards away and there was no noticeable change in their behavior and start blasting. It didn't take long before that didn't work anymore. Less than about 2 years, that tactic was done anywhere I hunted from East to West Texas. If you turned on a red spotlight, you were shooting at running pigs. ------------------------ I have used the method of a fixed feeder and a red light that comes on a dark and goes off at dawn for over a now. There is a definite shadow line on the ground because I have my lights about 20 feet up shining at a feeder that is 20 yards away. You can see the whole clearing because of the illumination and my feeder cast corn far past the cone of light. Most pigs will come right in and feed under the feeder. However there have been enough of them that stop at that line to notice a trend that a few will never step into that light. Even though I can see them as well as the rest, they will not step into the "light". The follow the shadow all the way around and will not step across the line they supposedly can't see. They just eat the corn that is outside the light. Usually it is big boars, but sometimes it is the sow that is with babies. At the same time some sows and boars will ignore it and come right in. There is no way to know the when and the what other than it is individuals. I don't shoot as soon as pigs come in. I watch them. I get to observe them for long periods of time from an up close position. I learned a thing or two bow hunting in Africa, I have a box blind with sealed doors and windows and keep them closed to keep my scent inside, so I'm able to observe stuff that I was never able to see before because eventually you will get busted if you are that close if you give them long enough to get around the tree you climbed or if one of them catches a molecule of your scent from a swirl of wind or if one slips around down wind and spooks the rest of them. So they can see something even though supposedly they can't. View Quote |
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Most animals see about as well as humans at night - and most humans can see much better than you would realize. In real terms, cats see about twice as well as humans, but twice isn't much.
However, most animals are experienced in moving in the dark, and are much more skillful than we are at detection and evasion. However if you spend a lot of time working in the dark, and assuming your vision is good to begin with, you'll find out that you can see quite a lot at night, even under pure starlight. Better than Gen1 and even some Gen2 night vision if it's dark enough. You can also gain quite a few skills at night. But using NV equipment is really an unfair advantage. Regards David. |
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This is an interesting thread.
At my place in the woods, I draw some slightly different conclusions. First, I have never shaken up any animal by showing my IR laser near them. None have ever startled when the dot dances around them, but they all always startle when I use green or red lasers, including the voles and mice. Second, all of them seem to see my Surefire 952-V - they see it on the rifle or helmet, and they look at me. I don't think they see that I am illuminating the area they are in, because the behavior I mention below never changes when I "light them up" with the Surefire. Third, (coyotes, deer, raccoons, etc. here) seem to think the darkness is a solid thing that protects them. I can get much nearer to them than I can in daylight, even though they always know I am present, and watch me or look at me very often while I move around in the dark. I know they can see me just fine, because I have experimented many times buy making silent, subtle moves, and the animals glance exactly at the motion and never need to scan the area to locate me. When they do get nervous and "escape"me in the dark, they often choose to take a route through the darkness that is "right in the open" in NV/thermal, such as scooting down the driveway or across the field, when in daytime they unfailingly choose to duck into dense cover. Because the animals have no way of guessing how PEOPLE see in the dark, but they SEE me and know I am people when I am out in the dark, I conclude they think of darkness is a kind of solid object, like a thick fog, that is between them and threats. |
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All I know is that guys have claimed that pigs startled and shied away when illuminated with what was supposed to be an IR source.
I have no clue whether the guys using these sources have ever even looked into them (obliquely) to see if they can detect anything. What is infra-red and what is ultra-violet varies with taxon, and sometimes within that taxon. It is well known that bees can see what to primates is ultra-violet. |
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I have owls that sit in front of 2 IR cameras with 3 bright IR flood lights over them and stare into the cameras. I don't know if its the noises that the auto tracking camera makes or what put looking at the lights cameras last night with my WP PVS14 it was like looking at the sun
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In my experience deer see terrible. If the wind is right you can sneak right up on them.
Coyotes seem to see as good as I do with nightvision on. Ive had them look at me from 100 yds away and back up in the woods if I wasnt camoflagued in well or if I get backlit by a light somewhere. They are very skidish in,my area though Skunks either see terrible or dont care. Skunks will walk right into you to where you have to move out of the way. |
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In my experience deer see terrible. If the wind is right you can sneak right up on them. Coyotes seem to see as good as I do with nightvision on. Ive had them look at me from 100 yds away and back up in the woods if I wasnt camoflagued in well or if I get backlit by a light somewhere. They are very skidish in,my area though Skunks either see terrible or dont care. Skunks will walk right into you to where you have to move out of the way. View Quote |
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By definition ........ if you can see it, it isn't infra-red. View Quote It's not that people can't see infrared, it's just that we're not very sensitive to it. However if the intensity is sufficient, we can still see it. Generally while we can't see the beam, we can often see the source. |
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my damn dog doesn't see worth a dang at night! He's come outside into the backyard with me. I go walk around with the NV on, while he goes back inside. He'll come back out, see me, and come running full speed barking and snarling.
Or maybe hes just dumb! |
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This is an interesting thread because when you say "how well" can animals, including us, can see in the dark, it goes beyond the mere biology of the eyeball. Hawk raises a very good point. I spent the vast majority of my time active duty patrolling at night without NV. When you invest the time and effort into getting good at moving and seeing at night, you might be amazed at how well you can "see" at night. "Seeing" involves not only your other senses but also spending as much time stationary as moving. I think the first Europeans learned this from the Indians (can I use this term without anyone here getting all butt hurt?). The Indians learned this I'm sure from watching the animals. So your ability to "see" at night depends as much on your fieldcraft as it does your eyesight.
Back to the OP, watching deer move through my back yard is like watching a ranger patrol. They move slowly, single file, with proper spacing, making frequent "security halts". When something spooks them, the tail goes up, just like H&A signals. Their "break contact" drills can use a little work, however, I have seen one deer wait until every member of the herd or harem moves out before following them. So yeah beyond just eyesight, seeing at night is a specialized activity that must be learned and practiced often. I would say the average human sucks at this because he spends very little time in the bush. Animals live there so are very good at it. |
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my damn dog doesn't see worth a dang at night! He's come outside into the backyard with me. I go walk around with the NV on, while he goes back inside. He'll come back out, see me, and come running full speed barking and snarling. Or maybe hes just dumb! View Quote |
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I would say noise and scent is more important to most animals, I've had animals look at me, and as long as I froze, didnt make eye contact and had the wind in my face 90% of the time I can continue the stalk.
Matter of Fact Myself and a Ranger Buddy who works for Daniel Defense and myself snuck up on a small sounder of 5 pigs last week and shot them at a whopping 7 yards in the face. they never had a clue until the very last second as we were not silhouetted by the moon, the wind was non existent, and through Unfilmed WP and Green Phosphor Sentinels and PVS-31's they never had a chance. |
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Folks this is what I'd call the deadly corner. You have people who have no experience at night ops and no NV equipment. You have people with no experience at night ops, and have NV equipment. Then you have people with experience in night ops, without any NV equipment. And finally, you have peeps with night ops experience, and NV equipment. That animal sees the best at night.
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on a full moon night a coyote can spot you from more than 300 yards if you are in the open. Starlit nights they can see you in the open around 100 yards. On cloudy nights you can get to within about 60 or 70 yards if you are very careful walking. They can see very well if you are moving!
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Earlier in the season I shot a buck at last legal light, which past sunset here, think civil twilight. I could barely make out the antlers and I waited as it walked toward me completely oblivious to me being there. Earlier in the season that same buck at the same range in the exact same spot in the field had me busted dead to rights when there was more light. I am convinced he just did not see me in the waning light when I dumped him.
I had the advantage of the scope pulling in more light than his eyes could during the transitional lighting conditions. If it was true dark I think he would have been at an advantage. So, in my experience deer don't have an advantage over us with optical tools and not just when we break out NVGs. In daylight I think a deer's eyesight is about like ours but they sense movement better. Though I have been amazed at how well our brain "sees" movement and draws our attention to it. I would love to read articles on why we can do it. |
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I hunt in a place with lots of deer. There will be 15 to 20 in the plots most nights. On a quarter moon, I've walked into the plots with them and they never really spooked. Had an 8 pt feeding 7 steps from me while sitting in a blue lawn chair. I don't feel they see very well at night. I do know that once your have been in their danger zone for a bit they accept you as no danger at night. Now if you stink and they get a whiff of you it's a different story. If they see a blob moving in the dark and you haven't harmed then for a bit they start ignoring you. Pigs don't seem to use their sight much to detect danger. Also when they are rooting they make so much noise they can't hear you sneaking up on them. If they smell you they are gone. Heck you can walk up to them in the daytime when they are rooting. What's hard is hunting them in 3000 acres of timber with cutover scattered throughout and where baiting is illegal. It rivals hunting Viet Cong in the jungle of Vietnam I'm sure. You just have to get lucky and cross paths with them.
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on a full moon night a coyote can spot you from more than 300 yards if you are in the open. Starlit nights they can see you in the open around 100 yards. On cloudy nights you can get to within about 60 or 70 yards if you are very careful walking. They can see very well if you are moving! View Quote |
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In my experience deer see terrible. If the wind is right you can sneak right up on them. View Quote You know who else is oblivious? Opossums. How many times in one night can that guy walk almost over the top of my boot and not even notice what he's doing? You know who DGAF? My local armadillo. I encounter him in the middle of the night and he's like, "Sup. I'm snorting lines of ants tonight. Wanna share?" And moves on. You know who is NOT oblivious? My ducks. Holy shit, if I shed a hair from my head in the middle of the night I swear they will see or hear it. People say ducks are blind at night. Blind my ass, if that's true, I have wallhacking Pekins with wolf ears. |
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Ducks fly at night to migrate often. Scientist think they use the Stars to navigate. They have also been shown to be able to sense magnetic fields and use that to orient. Crazy nature.
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I climbed into my box stand on the plot the other night and had a big wasp nest over my head. I was fine till i turned in the IR light. They started buzzing and going crazy. It was fine when the light was out. No doubt they see ir.
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Quoted: Third, (coyotes, deer, raccoons, etc. here) seem to think the darkness is a solid thing that protects them. View Quote Quoted:
All I know is that guys have claimed that pigs startled and shied away when illuminated with what was supposed to be an IR source. View Quote |
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I have a skunk on the property i hunt and I’d like him dead.
Can you just shoot a skunk? What happens if it’s not a clean kill? To contribute to the conversation, I’ve hunted a good bit at night in the last year+ and have to agree on the deer don’t care at night theme. Numerous times i watched deer look up at me while walking a field at night and they didn’t move or confined eating without concern. |
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