Gents,

Lurking here I have learned a bit about basic NVG "stuff"...got a bump helmet and -14 last year and have had LOADs of fun hunting coyotes and rats (in the off season).  Contemplating adding a DBAL type illuminator/designator to my "Daytime" hunting rifle (Scoped 18"). I have been using a crimson trace IR pistol laser with a .22 bolt gun for rats and thought the DBAL might work for 100yd type coyote shots.  Anyone with experience, please sound off.  

Thank you.

SHaun

Yes.

DBAL or even OTAL if you’re trying to save cash’s


MWAL or DBALA4 if you’re a baller.

Thanks!

I currently have a Surfire scout as my IR illuminator, would I still need that for targeting coyotes out to 100M +/-?  

Went to TNVC and looked at prices...I am pretty much limited to the DBAL I series...me no baller it would seem.

v/r

SMB

If you want a IR illuminator that can reach out past 500 yards that will not brake the bank look at the DBAL D2

DBAL
- has button onboard, double tap for constant on
- built in illuminator
-takes Cr123s

OTAL
-no button, must use tapeswitch or the dial
-no illuminator
- half the price of DBAL
-takes AAs

If you already have a Vampire light on the gun, the OTAL makes the most sense to me. If you want to bounce this laser onto multiple uppers, then the DBAL has some benefits, as you usually won't need to deal with tape switches. Of course you could just get two OTALs.

My favorite setups are DBAL+M300 or OTAL+M300v.

What sort of Surefire? Surefire V series or Incadescent with tip-off Ir filter?

You’re probably ok (depending on the quality of your NOD) with a V at 100 yds.

Honestly though, save up a few more $. People are dumping DBAL D2s for $900 on the EE (they’re buying MWALs).

The D2 looks great, but I can't swing that much right now...I know, be poor somewhere else!  Because we hunt in relatively tight quarters in a farming community I don't shoot beyond my solid target ID range...with my -14s it's about 100-150Ms. I will check out some Youtubes of the DBAL in action...I like being able to move a single unit to mutiple uppers.

v/r

Shaun

Understandable. CQBL is a nice unit (got mine for $618 del) if you don’t have somewhere to sight in at night (visible and Ir lasers are slaved together).

Also, consider stepping your IR Illumination game up with something like the Fenix TK25 IR (assuming your Surefire is an incandescent with a tip-off IR filter).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B071CX9T29/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507994531&sr=8-1-spons&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=fenix+tk25+ir&psc=1

While not strictly "necessary" for a hunting-exclusive rig, IMHO, a laser aiming module with an onboard IR illuminator is worth its weight in gold. If you can afford it, even if it takes a little bit of extra saving, I generally would not bother with a non-combination unit.

The whole "separate IR illuminator"/dual spectrum light solution was essentially a work around until Class I laser-based IR illuminators came on the market.

While dual spectrum lights often work great as fill lights/supplementary illuminators, I do not and would not consider them as a replacement or substitute for a targeting illuminator, if only for the fact that they can be adjusted with the laser, and they can be activated simultaneously with the aiming laser when you need it. You can also retain an instant white light capability, rather than having to switch settings on your weaponlight.

On a budget, you might look for the DBAL-I² Single Spectrum (IR aiming laser/IR illuminator). It won't have the slaved visible laser that the ATPIAL-C and pricier DBALs have, but it will do the job much better, IMHO, than an OTAL/CQBL/etc. + dual spectrum light combination will.

Just make sure that you do decide to go the DBAL-I² route, that you make sure to get the Single Spectrum, not the Dual Spectrum, which has one visible, and one IR aiming laser (non-slaved), which is, IMHO, pretty much the worst of both worlds.

~Augee

Botach had ir only dbals(9007) for $625 a month ago. Shipping was a bit slower as I had to wait for a new shipment. DVOR had them for $579 a week later. Hard to pass up that deal so I picked up a 2nd.

Great advice...thanks guys.  I think I will go with this:

https://tnvc.com/shop/steiner-dbal-i%C2%B2-class-1-3r-ir-single-spectrum-laser/

Assuming the illuminator will give me good target ID results with a -14 at 100yds with no other IR light source....will save space/weight not running a separate illuminator.

v/r

Shaun

I have stuck with DBAL-I2 and separate illuminators. Because I know these backward and forward even in the dark, because the often poo-pooed visible laser can save your life if you need to take a shot from an unexpected precarious position, because they are solid, and because with discounts these can be bought for $600-ish (best price I ever realized was from DSG)
Especially now that Steiner has made the laser brightness level switch actually functional (high-Low). The high setting made it hard to tell what the beam was hitting (is it ON the coyote? Or is it on the ground just next to him?).
All the guys here said "turn up your illumination". NEEDING illumination every shot is a terrible thing while using NV - it flies in the face of the purpose and tactical advantage of NV  Illumination where tree limbs intervene is as much a curse as a cure. A selectable laser output, and a neutral density filter to tame it even lower, is often a much better solution than an IR floodlight that both blinds  the user with nearer-than-the-target reflected light, and is often visible to whoever is downrange.
The DBAL-I2 is far from the ideal solution, but it's a good laser with a good mount, especially if you get an ND filter for those extra-careful shots.
Just one man's opinion..

While I agree that the visible laser can be a useful tool, I wouldn't trade an onboard illuminator for one if I had to choose between the two. Also, the scenario that you're suggesting requires you to actually have the device switched to the visible laser already when you need it.

I don't think anyone was saying that you always need illumination for every shot, or at very least I certainly wasn't, but when you do need it, it's useful to have it be able to come up simultaneously with the aiming laser, rather than having to activate the two in sequence.

I certainly understand the familiarity concept, as it is one of the reasons I prefer to stick with ATPIAL models at this point, however, based on your own description, it sounds like the DBAL-A³ actually fits your needs better than the I², as it has all the same features (high/low, neutral density filter) and manual of arms, along with a visible override for the VIS laser to boot. The only criteria it doesn't "meet" is price, but I'd frankly rather have one unit that met all my needs, rather than two that "kinda sorta" did, and from the sounds of it, you have/had quite a few, enough maybe to have an A³ for your "primary" nightime gun, and to still have an I² for a backup/loaner/whatever.

~Augee

Absolutely. I wouldn’t take a vis laser over an illuminator either unless I had a very specific task called for it.

FWIW I am killing coyotes at 100 yards no problem using the CT IR pistol laser mounted to my AR15.  TNVC's WP PVS-14 makes it very easy to ID the yote and see the laser dot at that distance.

Honestly, how are the illuminators on DBAL-I2 (9007), DBAL-A3 and ATIPAL-C?
I’ve heard they’re laser based so they are limited on output to keep them Class 1.

My experience was with PEQ2 and 15 so I’m pretty spoiled with focusable illuminators that could reach far.

I heard the ATIPAL-C IR illuminator is weak and fixed, how are the Steiner units illuminators? How do they compare to the TNVC torch?

I know LEDs illuminators like the Torch and DBAL-D2 have much more throw at the cost of red visible light.
If I could deal with the red visible light, is the torch next to a CWBL-1 or D2 more versatile than a ATIPAL-C or DBAL-A3?

My optimal solution would be a single unit with low and high powered IR pointer that’s cowitnessed to a visible laser for zeroing and use of force. But I’d also like it to have a focusable IR illuminator with a high and low setting. This unit would sit adjacent to a white light so I can instantly go from IR to white light if needed. Like when I was active duty and had a PEQ and surefire light.

I really don’t want to rotate a bezel or have two separate lights in addition to IR pointers.

The solution is probably a D2 or a MAWL next to a surefire white light but I just wanted to ping ya’ll on the A3 and ATIPAL-c illuminators.

Finally, I heard the D2 and ATIPAL-C break the least. Are the latest DBAL-I2 and CQBL-1’s more durable?

@rainmaker9

With the Class I devices, it's about managing your expectations a little if you're used to standard-power military lasers, you will not get the same functionality.

With the laser-based Class I illuminators, they are essentially "locked" in low power mode with a "medium" flood. On the ATPIAL-C, the focus ring is completely locked, and it's just a "one size fits all" illuminator, you can use the neutral density filter to cut down on the power and give you more of a "fill light," but other than that, you won't get any adjustability on the beam/illuminator (can still be zeroed).

On the Class I DBALs, they have a "high" setting that is the same power output, but they also have another, lower "low" setting. You can also change the size of the illuminator beam, but it will not focus the illuminator beam in the same way that you're used to with a military unit, you'll just make the illumination "cone" bigger or smaller, but always the same power.

The LED-based illuminators will give you much more illumination and distance than a Class I laser-based illuminator, but they will come at the price of size/weight and visible signature.

Which will work best for you will depend primarily on what it is that you're doing--the Class I DBALs (minus the D2) and ATPIAL-C are definitely more of a "tactically" biased device, and the illuminator settings are set up to be adequate for ~85% of the situations you'd be likely to encounter in a "force on force" situation.

You do lose some function, however, and the "one size fits all" illumination means that it's rarely "ideal" for any given situation, but adequate for most.

On the other hand, if you're doing more longer range hog/coyote shooting and trying to IR "spotlight" animals, the illuminator is definitely going to seem pretty anemic, and you're likely to be unsatisfied with it, and might be better off with the DBAL-D2.

Then, of course, there's the MAWL-C1 at the cost of a good green phosphor PVS-14... if you can afford it and justify it to yourself, may as well just get that.

~Augee

UPDATE: I bought and installed the DBAL-I2 (onboard IR illuminator) and I have bore sighted/zeroed it and taken it out scouting.  Bear in mind I am not any sort of tactical NVG expert so take my comments with that in mind.  I am very pleased with the combination or surprisingly light weight, ease of use, and capability the DBAL brings to the coyote hunt.  In the relatively restricted environment I have to hunt in routinely the DBAL does a good job fitting my needs.  I can't speak to durability, but it does appear well made and everything has worked as advertised.  The on-board illuminator does throw sufficient illumination to ID and safely shoot a coyote at 100 yds with a basic PNVS-14 like I have...I have a hand held Fenix TR-25 that throws an inane amount of illumination which I use for detection/ID at longer ranges.  Anyhow, pleased with the purchase, thanks so much for your advice.

v/r

Shaun