ntxt

Things went awry....

I was quite interested to hear what Karma had to say about it/ new data.

I asked for it to be locked and the mod would not do it. I then contacted staff to have it locked. Ed Sr trashed it. Was not worth seeing friends rip each other apart, Was NEVER the intent of MY thread.

ETA: It is over. I asked in a very nice and professional manner to lock it. I was left with NO choice but to go above Karma's head and resolve the matter. Not what I wanted to do. . Let's move on.

Fair enough, Vics last post was fairly "heated" and that was the last one I saw.

But realistically could we actually have a thread where people just post what they know about it here to consolidate the info so people can make a semi-informed decision? I mean I'm no ATN fan, but it is a rather large price difference.

I agree. I just don't think it is possible without it getting out of hand. I really wanted to learn why it would not hold zero on a consistent basis. To many hard feelings for this thread to continue. Maybe at a later date but right now emotions are just to high. Will try again one day.

ETA : "heated" came from all sides. I am done with this and will say nothing more.

it was said that the complete dissection, photos etc of the scope will be here for all to see shortly. i cant wait!

Well good. I wanna see the guts of it, though from looking at the PVS-22 patent the PS-22 probably won't be all that different, but those small details will likely be the interesting bits.

Me too.  I know the unit is no were close to being dependable new out of the box.  Just curious as to what the problems actually are.  I've had friends ask me about the unit, and I tell them not to buy one due to not holding zero.  Then of course there's the " well why doesn't it hold zero".  Shit I haven't a clue...

Fair enough, Like I said, I ONLY saw the rather lengthy thing Vic posted not what anyone else posted after it. Shame though that we can't have an unbiased tech discussion here.

There were several reports on other boards that they worked fine however, to IIRC include foreign military use (I recall LL posting some pics of mil-use long time ago).
So that was more of the contentious issue in my mind is that some apparently worked, and some did not. I have my theory(s) but that is based on mainly what I have read various places and it is not based on any real world experience. (If someone wants to send me one to test I will do it)

ETA, this whole thing has dragged on for like 2 years now with no real resolution to the issue/questions so I just mainly want an answer(s).

ETA2 Hell feel free to PM if you have info on it you want to share to avoid the public spectacle.

Am I missing something here as I had been searching for the thread that one of the members wrote about his new PVS-22 and how much he liked it. I thought his review should have been a sticky but I cannot find it. Is that the thread that got canned or was it specific to the ATN product PS -22 as the initial poster here references the PVS-22 but further down it references the ATN unit.
Hopefully the main part of the PVS-22 review can be reposted by itself.

PVS-22 while expensive is a great scope. ATN PS-22 has issues ! I call it like I see it... All sides agree it has issues.

I too look for a cheaper alternative. ATN is not it . The Wasp may be what we are looking for ! I have no knowledge other then what pics show. I would bet it is a clip on device. Just what I see and I could be wrong !!!  

The thread that got canned was on the ps-22.  The thread your talking about is probably Edwin's when he got his OSTI unit.  Its probably already in the archives.

The thread that got canned was on the ps-22.  The thread your talking about is probably Edwin's when he got his OSTI unit.  Its probably already in the archives.[/quote]

Ok I got it now. Thanks

+1






+1 again



 

edit

Now this thread I wish I could have seen the whole thing. I did see part of the thread where karma stated he called ATN, funny they were all ears when he called them (wonder why), and too bad an official agency could not get the same results when we called these jokers at ATN with our major issues. What does that tell you?  Actually with my guys, (yea we bought them), everyone we know on the inside calls them the (“POS-22!”)  If you need an explanation what POS stands for well, <wink> We thought the Knight guys and the Optical Tech folks were going to sue them over that scope, but once we found out what this thing didn’t do, we understood why.  If memory serves me correctly, 2 or 3 of the lenses came loose after shooting a short time and several others changed the zero to our day scopes.  Some had complete misses at 100 yards when attached for the first time!  (THIS WAS NO DRIFT BUT PLAIN MISSES FIRST SHOT DOWN RANGE!!) A few never even got taken out of the cases after we saw what they did.  We also ordered or asked for Gen 3 technology and but the image was nowhere near what our current Gen 3 PVS-7 and PVS-14’s looked like and our current units are over 6 years old.  I think we had a total of 7 of these POS’s our purchasing agents ordered (against our wishes for real PVS-22’s , but hey it was cheap) and it took us 6 months of serious fighting with ATN to get our money back and I mean to a point we were going to fly out there personally with the 7 scopes to talk with these jokers!   Also, I think that may be the reason Victor was heated in this thread?  LOL  It was he the agency called and woke up at 0200 dark to come out and ask wtf? I’d be pissed too. ;-)  But once again we are led to believe only one side of the story here from harlikwin.

I am not a technical guy when it comes down to scopes, just a gun guy who expects stuff to work out of the box and I do not fix things for companies nor get paid for it and not tell anyone which seems happens at times on these and other forums with biased reviews to pimp a product.  It seems this thread and a future one will do the same thing and pimp ATN and their products.  How many more POS-22 threads do we have to see around here anyways all stating there are issues, but now all of sudden we are all wrong or “inaccurate” with magical fixes about to happen? I have yet to see in any other optical forum anywhere where someone took apart a major optical scope in an attempt to try to fix and diagnose an issue?  I would love to see someone do this with Leupold, Knightforce, US Optics or any other scopes.  Plus I read this thread where “certain” folks here spent 15K out of their own pockets to do this POS-22 review?  We’re expected to believe they bought all these scopes too, all in the name of the community?  Yea ok, no wonder ATN are talking with this group but refused to help us.  

In our case we did contact ATN several times as explained, gave them feedback and they were pretty bad on the phone several times and told us it was mainly our day optics that were the blame (unbelievable) and as I mentioned we had to fight hard for our money back and all they wanted to do was give us excuses and give us a “company credit” for our refund, so we would be forced to buy other “cheap” scopes for the agency???  Other people can say this or that, i.e. maybe it was a bad batch, etc. but I have also read here and many other places that this thing still has issues, major design issues at that, and I would not even recommend this thing for recreational use.  I do not even know the cost of these things any more but spending at least several thousand dollars is just not right for anything performing like these things. Yea, and I read all their marketing claims on this or that and saw those retired law enforcement guys making probably 6 digit salaries to tell everyone ATN scopes are great for police officers and the everyone else.  Funny thing after we got had, we really asked around, and many agencies across the country we know all said the same thing about these guys, “you got hyped and fooled too?”  We will NEVER buy from this outfit again period no matter who does the next so-called unbiased review saying we fixed this or that or in the name of this “good company”?  Yea right.  When that new so-called unbiased fixer up review comes out, I will be sure to post my feelings there as well.  This is a joke.

+1 Very good information. Thank you.

Thanks for you post. Added to my database of known info on the unit.
FWIW I have no dog in this fight one way or the other, nor have I ever seen this unit work or not work as I don't have one. I have basically asked questions as to how it works. I have seen reports both ways over the years here and several other forums. And at best I've tried to come up with explanations that could explain why the unit works or doesn't.
I don't recall ever leading anyone down any side of any story as you are implying, just posting the info I have collected to include the bad reports and the reports that some people have where it does work for them. So in fact both sides of the story.

ETA: out of curiosity what caliber guns were you guys using when the lenses came loose?

Isn't SOP to get units for T&E before purchasing?

What "lenses" came loose?

Please wes1, not going to work on me, not factual. It’s not official SOP, not sure where you get your info from because most if not all agencies do not have an actual SOP that  T&E is required.  We ask for it on some pieces of gear but not some actual SOP is ever written period that mandates this. We actually did get a T&E from Victor and Knights when he brought out his PVS-22’s and PVS-27’s to begin with and it was the purchasing agents who went out there and bought into ATN’s cheap marketing hype even though we wanted the Knights or Optical Systems gear.  All rifles were .308 and one 300 win mag with badger and McCann rails.  This crap happens all the time with agencies who want a certain piece of gear and then the purchase folks put out the word and all the 2nd hand substitute companies like ATN come out of the woodwork to say this or that all with their cheap pricing that the purchase agents just love saving thousands in a semi large contract.  No matter, the gear is usually crap for the guys out there who finally get these cheap substitutes. Case in point with the POS-22’s. You have no idea how much this happens to so many agencies, they ask for one thing and get another, now that is factual.

What's not going to work? I wanted to know if any units,were tested before the PS22 units were purchased. I understand your issues with purchasing agents. I did a "T&E" for Vic with a local SWAT team, and they ended up going with the lowest bid....

I still would like to know, what lenses came loose?

Our armorer indicated the front objective lenses appeared to be loose on 3 of the systems and he did not know why the other two were all over the place. That’s all he said except a few other words I will not repeat here.

Good info here; we were recently considering an ATN purchase with our year-end funds, but many advised against it, so this just confirms we made the right choice.

Probably a good choice from our knowledge base with numerous agencies.  When this so-called new un-biased POS-22 reviews  comes out yet again, we will see the ATN payroll folks in force.  What I and some of my guys will not do is assist ATN any longer, we learned our lesson the hard way.  I will not answer any more questions on this device technically as  there are other motives in play with a few around here with this scope, and this is not about helping the community.  Since ATN did not build the scope right to begin with along with 99% of their other gear, why not pay others to do it or reward them for their labor here on the ar15.com all in the name of an unbiased review and free promotion!   I say again, when has any major optic manufacturer such as Leupold, US Optics, Nightforce etc. been taken apart and fixed for the community and the topic been beat to death over and over again?  This ATN company is despicable with their marketing practices to everyone who buys into it.  As mentioned earlier, this whole thing smells and based on a several track records of a select few around here attacking certain folks over the years all in the name of the community, this is clear as day what is going on.

Please tell, me who's on ATN's payroll?
No offense, but you didn't give much technically info, to begin with, only they didn't work.
Who's track record of attacking who, over the years?
I don't understand the threat the PS22 poses, but it seems to have a lot of interested parties in the "community"
I for one never recommended ATN products.

I really don't give a flying shit who's name is on the side.  Whether it be Russian, US, or whatever.  Look at a 760 or 740 Russian housing with others putting different tubes in the device.  If someone can take a 1700 device and make it reliable I'm sure everyone would like to hear about it.  Considering a comparable device is 7k.  Which puts such devices out of many's price range.  More importantly I think many are interested in why such brand device doesn't work.  Believe me I'm no fan of ATN products what so ever.  I believe they take advantage of most peoples limited knowledge of NV, and provide a shitty overall product.  

I also believe this is why many are interested in Vic's Wasp unit.  It looks to be a clip on unit that hopefully will be more affordable to others.  

I care because I don't do business with liars and thieves. Company's that misrepresent their product to prey on the inexperienced. I really don't care if it is the best scope ever made. I would never purchase it. Just not how I was taught. I too look for a cheaper alternative to the PVS-22. When a reliable product comes out from a honest dealer I will buy it. I simply can't afford a PVS-22. I understand many others can't as well. That said I will never stoop to the level of ATN. I don't care if the Pope has a fix for it !  Just my .02   YMMV  

Ok, I will bite.  

Who are you and what group/agency do YOU represent?
What is your applicable background?
You dont have an available BIO