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Posted: 9/1/2017 6:47:30 PM EDT
[#1]
I keep originals safe.....copies with the guns when i'm out with them.
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Posted: 9/1/2017 6:52:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I keep originals safe.....copies with the guns when i'm out with them. I scan my originals and then put them is the safe. I print out the scans (copies) and carry them. The intent is to prove that you have paid the tax. Nothing anywhere says you need the original on the street. If Martinsburg says they are not registered, you may need to produce the originals to prove your copies are not forgeries. I can't imagine that happening for anything registered in the last decade. |
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Posted: 9/1/2017 7:11:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Copies are fine.
I've never been asked for any paperwork on any of my NFA items however, this is ARFCOM so I'm sure someone will post that they get asked for their paperwork every time they go to the range. Either way, copies will do. |
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Posted: 9/1/2017 7:21:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Reduced size copies laminated.
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Posted: 9/1/2017 7:24:53 PM EDT
[#5]
I have been asked a few times in the past but the guys at the range know me now and don't bother me. Not a big deal.
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Posted: 9/1/2017 7:37:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks Gents!
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Posted: 9/2/2017 6:31:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reduced size copies laminated. |
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Posted: 9/2/2017 6:40:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. But do not get overzealous and laminate your originals. Leave them as bare paper. 
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Posted: 9/2/2017 7:41:26 PM EDT
[#9]
I have yet in my entire life ever even heard of anybody being asked to show their paperwork. I leave mine at home in a safe. If range staff want to play atf agent and refuse to let me shoot no problem i'll take my money elsewhere as I have yet to see the law that delegates NFA enforcement activity to range staff.
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Posted: 9/2/2017 10:16:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't see any reason why you can't laminate them, license and carry permit are both laminated. read me (and the link in that thread I post when I mention tony_k's response) |
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Posted: 9/3/2017 3:50:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have yet in my entire life ever even heard of anybody being asked to show their paperwork. I leave mine at home in a safe. If range staff want to play atf agent and refuse to let me shoot no problem i'll take my money elsewhere as I have yet to see the law that delegates NFA enforcement activity to range staff. 
You Mileage May Vary, of course. |
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Posted: 9/3/2017 4:37:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Several of the larger machine gun shoots require you to show (copies of) your Forms. I keep all mine in a looseleaf binder and just let them go through it. Yeah, it's a pain, but I really enjoy taking part in the Mad Minute when the line goes hot and 100+ machine guns open up simultaneously with mag dumps. Now that is the sound of freedom!!!
You Mileage May Vary, of course. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have yet in my entire life ever even heard of anybody being asked to show their paperwork. I leave mine at home in a safe. If range staff want to play atf agent and refuse to let me shoot no problem i'll take my money elsewhere as I have yet to see the law that delegates NFA enforcement activity to range staff.
You Mileage May Vary, of course. |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 10:04:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now that is the sound of freedom!!! |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 1:21:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps slightly muffled by the sound of the range staff flipping through your ATF-issued paperwork....... I know a coupla guys who live near me with MGs, and we do get together occasionally for private shoots, with no ROs. But to line up with more than 100 like-minded folks and open up in full-auto simultaneously is, to me, a joyous experience. Hundreds of non-MG-owning people pay money to watch us, and they do not have to show any ATF-issued paperwork. Of course, they are not on the line, either. Life is filled with hoops you have to go through to accomplish your goal. Firearms laws have been improving over the last few years. Everywhere else on Earth, you can't own MGs ... or else they are shitholes where I would not want to live. I will take the United States every day. I guess Your Mileage Does Vary. 
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Posted: 9/17/2017 1:54:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, when I used to race autocross back in the day, I always had to show my driver's license. To me, it is no biggie. I know a coupla guys who live near me with MGs, and we do get together occasionally for private shoots, with no ROs. Driver's licenses are a privilege and not a right, according to the courts. But I don't mean to start a debate with the choir..... 
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Posted: 9/17/2017 2:08:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Is there a requirement to bring a copy?
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Posted: 9/17/2017 2:44:41 PM EDT
[#17]
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Is there a requirement to bring a copy? In general, you are not required by federal law to carry a copy. However, since the copy provides proof that you are not breaking federal and possibly state law by possessing the NFA item, LE has the right to confiscate your NFA item(s) until you prove they are registered to you/your trust/your corp. Since I do not want my NFA stuff bouncing around in the trunk of an LE cruiser, I carry copies of my forms. |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 2:48:31 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't even bother carrying copies anymore. I've never been asked. If I did I could show a scanned copy on my phone that I saved into drop box.
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Posted: 9/17/2017 3:11:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Originals in safe, copies in range bag, scanned pdf copies in Dropbox on my phone.
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Posted: 9/17/2017 3:21:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As far as ranges go, that policy is up to the owners and any insurance company requirements. In general, you are not required by federal law to carry a copy. However, since the copy provides proof that you are not breaking federal and possibly state law by possessing the NFA item, LE has the right to confiscate your NFA item(s) until you prove they are registered to you/your trust/your corp. Since I do not want my NFA stuff bouncing around in the trunk of an LE cruiser, I carry copies of my forms. I should probably carry around the receipts for anything I have with me to prove I haven't stolen the clothes I'm wearing or the cell phone I have. (Inflammatory remark not directed at you or anyone specifically) |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 4:23:50 PM EDT
[#21]
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Reduced size copies laminated. One place actually told me that the ATF would shut down the firing range if they caught an illegal NFA item being fired on the property. I grabbed my shit and left, and have never been back. |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 6:45:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I always have a copy with me, pictures on my phone, a reduced copy in the rifle case under the foam, and copies in the truck. I have never had LE ask about any of it, but every firing range that I have ever taken an NFA item wants to fucking see the copies. One place actually told me that the ATF would shut down the firing range if they caught an illegal NFA item being fired on the property. I grabbed my shit and left, and have never been back. My question is do you scale down the entire form or just the stamp it'self? |
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Posted: 9/17/2017 7:24:53 PM EDT
[#23]
The range I use has the RO checking you in verify that you have the form and that it matches the NFA item.
Before anyone screams about this, this range has an NFA FFL and I consider their practice CYA. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 11:13:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The range I use has the RO checking you in verify that you have the form and that it matches the NFA item. Before anyone screams about this, this range has an NFA FFL and I consider their practice CYA. But I do not see the purpose. Perhaps certain states require it? If it is CYA: Is some government agency pushing them to do it? Is it an insurance requirement? If yes to either of the above, then do they also check your vehicle registration and proof of insurance? After all, you are operating a vehicle on their property. Stolen vehicles and uninsured motorists are a much bigger problem, in terms of public safety, than silencers that may not have transfer documents within reach. Does the range conduct a NICS check on everyone who enters the range to make sure no felon has a firearm? I would much rather the RO spend as much time as possible watching the people handling loaded weapons than reviewing someones tax documents. I go to a great range. They are professional, mindful of safety and do not allow steel core ammo, but they do not ask for transfer documents. I am not screaming and invite a rational explanation from a range owner/manager. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 1:31:40 PM EDT
[#25]
COPIES are preferable. Keep the ORIGINALS in a fire safe (after scanning them first).
IF you do ever have contact with an over-zealous LEO who doesn't understand NFA and machineguns, the last thing you want is for him to seize your original form 4 offered as YOUR proof of legal possession. You lose that and you are depending solely on the ATF to prove that you did not commit a felony. Bring you original with you on the court date...with your lawyer. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 2:11:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The range I use has the RO checking you in verify that you have the form and that it matches the NFA item. Before anyone screams about this, this range has an NFA FFL and I consider their practice CYA. 
And "CYA" for what? No Federal law prohibits a range from letting someone shoot illegal firearms. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 2:43:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No such thing as an "NFA FFL".
And "CYA" for what? No Federal law prohibits a range from letting someone shoot illegal firearms. I presume it would be primarily for civil liability. If there is an accident on your property and the individual who was "responsible" was engaged in illegal activity or behavior its going to be much more difficult to defend in court if the accident could be construed as party to you allowing illegal activity on your property/place of business. I could also see your insurance company trying to get out of financial responsibility if it could be linked that accident was the result of negligence on your part for failing to prevent illegal activity from taking place. I don't own a shooting range..... but do own a quite a few rental properties and I take a bunch of extra precautions (and pay a decent amount of money) to make sure that folks in my properties are not doing anything illegal/stupid/risky/etc/ in order to protect both the tenants from themselves and neighbors surrounding them from harm in order to limit my civil liability exposure. Just my take on why they ask to make sure everything is legitimate to the reasonable best of their ability. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:21:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No such thing as an "NFA FFL".
And "CYA" for what? No Federal law prohibits a range from letting someone shoot illegal firearms. They charge a reasonable price for NFA transfers, too. I believe that the owners want to avoid any hint that they participate - even through lack of information about the act - in illegal activities. They are upright and decent people, and I support them wholeheartedly. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:44:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There IS a specific FFL that permits a business to trade in NFA items. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No such thing as an "NFA FFL".
And "CYA" for what? No Federal law prohibits a range from letting someone shoot illegal firearms. Any FFL licensed as a dealer, pawnbroker, manufacturer or importer simply pays Special Occupational Tax each year that enables either manufacturing, importing or dealing in NFA firearms. It's not a specific FFL, but a tax. <-----FFL/SOT
I believe that the owners want to avoid any hint that they participate - even through lack of information about the act - in illegal activities. They are upright and decent people, and I support them wholeheartedly. I get that. What I don't get is the idea that there are sooooo many illegal NFA firearm users out there that demanding "show me your papers" is necessary. Even ATF will tell you the percentage of illegal NFA firearms is miniscule. It boils down to unfounded paranoid bullshit. A range is far more likely to have a prohibited person shooting there than someone with an untaxed NFA firearm.....yet they don't bother to check for that do they?
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:56:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, there isn't. Any FFL licensed as a dealer, pawnbroker, manufacturer or importer simply pays Special Occupational Tax each year that enables either manufacturing, importing or dealing in NFA firearms. It's not a specific FFL, but a tax. <-----FFL/SOT
I get that. What I don't get is the idea that there are sooooo many illegal NFA firearm users out there that demanding "show me your papers" is necessary. Even ATF will tell you the percentage of illegal NFA firearms is miniscule. It boils down to unfounded paranoid bullshit. A range is far more likely to have a prohibited person shooting there than someone with an untaxed NFA firearm.....yet they don't bother to check for that do they? |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:05:29 PM EDT
[#31]
So I'd have done better to look that up and get the details correct. Lesson learned.
I guess I was confusing the FFL dealer license with a manufacturer license. So I did the research. A 01 FFL can sell firearms, while a 01 FFL with SOT can sell NFA items. A 07 FFL can manufacture firearms, while a 07 FFL with SOT can manufacture NFA items. The Special Occupational Tax is the NFA part of the license. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:26:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I'd have done better to look that up and get the details correct. Lesson learned. I guess I was confusing the FFL dealer license with a manufacturer license. So I did the research. A 01 FFL can sell firearms, while a 01 FFL with SOT can sell NFA items. A 07 FFL can manufacture firearms, while a 07 FFL with SOT can manufacture NFA items. The Special Occupational Tax is the NFA part of the license. Any 01FFL Dealer can deal in NFA firearms, but must pay the same tax as any other transferee. Any 07FFL Manufacturer can make an NFA firearm, but must pay the same tax as any other transferee. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:28:14 PM EDT
[#33]
That's a much better explanation than the simplified info on the ATF site. Thanks.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:32:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a much better explanation than the simplified info on the ATF site. Thanks. 
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:48:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Originals in the safe. Copies in case or range bag.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:55:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Think of it this way.
The type 01 is a dealer license. The type 07 is a Manufacture license. Paying the SOT just expands the range of products your license covers. Want to know what an SOT looks like - ask to see the local 7-11 federal occupational tax page that allows them to sell beer - That is an SOT. It should be posted in plain sight along with the business license (sales tax). |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 10:01:11 PM EDT
[#37]
A couple points.
Most LEOs wouldn't know what they're looking at or for when it comes to a Form 1 or 4. Most have never seen them in their lives or even have any idea you can own the stuff that goes on them. Phone calls or radio calls are made to people who may know. There is no way for a LEO to access the registry that I know of without making phone calls to the ATF and that isn't likely to happen or be possible in most roadside scenarios. Personally, I keep copies with my stuff to cover it all. Required? No but it may save me or them any headaches. I'm not looking to make a point or anything and it isn't battle I'm willing to fight. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 8:35:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't even bother carrying copies anymore. I've never been asked. If I did I could show a scanned copy on my phone that I saved into drop box. It's not, but give a little man a big job. YMMV of course, and I'm sure most here have better ranges to go to. It's certainly the only time it's ever happened to me. |
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