What are the NFA rule on 3 round burst
Can I use this set up in a AR15

Absolutely.

Of couse be prepared to be visited by your local BATF and have a nice long extended stay in a federal facility for many many years. Go ahead, install and blast away.  

If your for real you better stay away from guns together since the question implies you are totally ignorant. Even a nubie should know this is not legal (unless you have a legally registered AR15 that was converted and your ownership has been approved by the BATF with the proper paperwork and a tax stamp (which will cost you $200)).

I think the confusion stems from the legal definition of machinegun being different from the everyday definition.  ATF says two shots per pull and it's an MG, everyday says an MG fires until the ammo is gone on one pull.

A three round burst on a 30 round magazine is far less than "the ammo is consumed" so people think that a burst is OK because it's not a machinegun, by definition.  Unfortunately, the ATF feels that even a malfunction that causes more than one round to fire per pull of the trigger makes a machinegun...

And to add to it, I believe GA state law doesn't consider it a machinegun until it fires more than three rounds on a triggerpull. Too bad it's trumped by Federal ATF regs.

It may also be because new guys see how much machineguns cost, and just can't believe it.  It just can't be right.  Just a little hole and, how can it be right?  There must be a simple way around this.  There has just got to be.

From when I did my M16 qual every year, FA is highly overrated anyway...

Overrated, but richly entertaining!

No argument here but... operational and 'sport' full auto are two different creatures.  

 

Bah, 3-round burst is for A2s & M4s...not retro.

thanks for info  osprey21


Sorry I pissed you guys off with my stupid questions i've owed a AR15 for 9yrs now and just really started getting into now that I have 2
If you guys know of a better place were I could learn some things about weapons please let me know.
Most of the time I try and search to find these answers on the forums before I ask supid questions.
I guess it just takes alittle bashing to find your answers

Like mentioned or eluded to already;

More than one round fired per a single trigger pull is considered Full Auto by the BATF and Federal Law.  The penalties are severe if  you have a firearm that can do that without the proper permits/tax stamps.  This would include 3 round Burst.

3 Round Burst in the M16/M4 is accomplished with Full Auto Parts including the Auto-Sear, the 3 round burst just adds a 2nd Disconnector that interacts with a clutch/ratchet/cam on the hammer, that engages the extra disconnector after every 3rd hammer fall.  So 3rd burst is still the M16/M4 running full auto, except it interrupts the full auto after 3 shots. i.e. you need all the M16 full auto parts, including the M16 BCG, plus the 3rd burst parts on top of it. I.E. 3rd burst M16 are Full Auto M16s with a few extra parts added to it.

The Tax Stamp for NFA items like a 14.5" barrel is $200, I "think" but don't know, but for a full auto weapon you'll spend far more than that, whether its for the tax stamp or other fees, but I don't think a full auto machine gun can be had for nearly 10 grand.

Having fired lots of 3rd burst on M16A2 often and full auto M16A1 once (2 mags worth), I have to agree, 3rd Burst is vastly superior.  At 20yrds in full auto, guess how many rounds landed on target?  The 1st three, every time, the rest were just a waste.  What would you rather have with a 30rd magazine?  10 bursts or 2?  If you need more than 3rds, just keep releasing and pulling the trigger, yea, NOT Full Auto, but on burst you can squeeze the burst off fast enough its hard to tell the difference, its pretty much like full auto.  As well, Marines being light infantry (yea, not exactly) you can't afford to waste 2/3rd your ammo just spraying rounds.  As well, Amphibious ops being the primary mission, there is only so much ammo that can be moved ashore so fast, as well, held in the holds of the ship, conserving ammo could determine the success of an amphibious op.  I'm sure our Army Airborne brothers would agree.

Actually, not to nit-pick, but the 607B had a 4-position burst / FA selector. I believe the 610B did also.

In TX, state law allows 2 round burst.  Too bad federal law gets in the way.  If it was not for that, I am sure a 2 shot burst cam could be fabricated for TX Citizens.

I don't think you pissed anyone off, it is just a fact that questions like this are usually posted by trolls just looking to stir something up. It seems they have nothing better to do with their time than to waste the time of others.

That said, if you really want a machine gun it would be a good idea to do a search for full auto forums and educate yourself on legal ownership of machine guns. Many states allow citizens to own machine guns but some states do not.

While some states may impose their own regulations on full auto guns, Federal Law always supersedes any state law. I've read GA state law and it specifically states that a weapon will only be considered a machine gun if it fires more than SIX rounds with a single pull of a trigger. Unfortunately, if it fires more than ONE round it is a machine gun under Federal Law.

You should also know that there are several different categories of machine guns. Unless you are a dealer you will only be able to posses a Fully Transferable machine gun. If you are a dealer than you can acquire a Pre 1986 or a Post 1986 Dealer Sample. A Pre 1986 Dealer Sample is nearly the price of a Fully Transferable machine gun. A Post 1986 Dealer Sample is usually just a few hundred dollars more than a currently manufactured semi auto of the same type. The difference is that a dealer can KEEP a Pre 1986 DS after letting his license expire where a Post 1986 DS must be sold or destroyed, it cannot be kept.

A Fully Transferable machine gun requires that the owner submit in duplicate a Form 4, fingerprint cards, photographs, a Citizen Certification form, and $200 for the Tax Stamp. In order to be a dealer one must submit the application and pay $200 for the initial Type 01 FFL and another $500 for the Special Occupational Tax. The $200 will cover the 01 FFL for the first thee years but the $500 SOT must be paid every year. Some of this may have changed as it has been years since I held a license.

Prices on Fully Transferable M16's will run anywhere from $9000 up to $20,000 or more for collectible variants. There are relatively few if any Pre 1986 Dealer Sample M16's because most Dealer Sample machine guns are of the imported variety. Most M16's were domestically produced. A Post 1986 Dealer Sample machine gun could run anywhere between $1200to $2500 depending on the manufacturer and the components with which it was built. Again, non licensed civilians cannot posses Pre 1986 or Post 1986 machine guns. Only Fully Transferable. The title implies exactly that, it is fully transferable to individual citizens.

There are also different types of M16 machine guns. One type is the Factory Registered Receiver. A factory like Colt registered this receiver prior to May 19, 1986 and it is Fully Transferable. This is considered a factory made machine gun.

Another is the Registered Receiver conversion. This is a receiver that started out as a semi auto AR15 receiver but was "drilled and milled" prior to May 19, 1986 and registered by either a Class 2 manufacturer or an individual as it was legal for an individual to do so then.

Another type of M16 is one that was made with a Registered Drop In Auto Sear or RDIAS. The RDIAS is a small device that takes the place of a factory installed auto sear and as the name implies it simply drops in. These usually require some fitting or timing to work properly but for the most part they just drop into the receiver and allow semi auto and full auto fire by manipulation of the fire selector switch, just like the Registered Receiver M16.

Another type of M16 is one made with a Registered Lightning Link or Registered Auto Connector. These are the same thing. This is a device that drops into the receiver and allows full auto fire by manipulation of the trigger. This device is designed to work with SP1 style parts and it does not allow semi auto fire or select fire, just full auto only when it is installed. There was an individual that created a select fire parts kit designed to be used with a RLL or RAC that did allow select fire using a modified Burst parts kit.

Prices for a factory Colt will run around $15,000. Prices for a Converted Colt AR15 SP1 or Aftermarket Receiver (Essential Arms, SGW, etc) will run between $10,000 and $13,000. Prices for a RDIAS will run between $9000 and $11,000. Prices for a RLL or RAC will run between $7000 and $9000.

This is not meant to be an absolute answer to your questions, just an overview of the current situation with regard to machine guns. As far as prices go, they can vary so don't expect to find something for exactly one of the listed estimates.

What an outstanding summary, Pat.  it should be pinned in the Class III forum.

Pat, while you have your legal hat on...

Is there something keeping someone from getting the FFL and SOT just so they can own the cheap/new guns?  I'm assuming there's a requirement to attempt to sell or something, but I've never seen it stated directly.

You do not want 3 round burst anyway, full auto is the way to go, Trigger Control and Training are the key factors.

Outstanding!  Very good information to help someone.

I wish people who appear to have no real knowledge of legitimate, Title II firearms would stop posting this kind of stuff. The BATF CANNOT "drop in to inspect any time they want." You are NOT agreeing to a "no-knock" warrant. Unless they have information that you are involved in an illegal activity, they will simply contact you and request a time to examine the registered weapon(s) in question. If you agree, you can have your lawyer present when they show up. If you are suspected of having illegal weapons, that's a whole new ballgame. Also, there's a big difference between a "burst kit" and a full M2 conversion kit. It may be different where you live, but I've never seen any unregistered, complete M2 parts kits for sale. Even registered kits are not easy to find.

M2 kits or partial kits show up all the time on eBay as "Carbine Parts."

Personally, I have acting as a consultant on a Federal Case involving several Federal Agencies.  During the course of this investigation we found the DEA agent had lied to the judge, fabricated charges, falsified warrants.  Illegally seized a King Air, criminally charged and arrested the owner with Document Fraud.  Then when it started to unravel, it turned out a Fed had a personal grudge.  Now one would think that these rouges would be punished, but no, they are still being paid, like AIG, by you and me.  One has been promoted in fine federal fashion.  All involved have participating in a massive cover-up.  If we had not gotten a Congressman and a Senator involved, they would have been able to slide it under the carpet.  It will actually end as a RICO case with hopefully a few careers ruined and some jail time for a few.

So if you think the BATF cannot do whatever they please, your seriously delusional.  Go look up the case N200DA in the Congressional Reporter.

I've seen one of those M2 kits.  A friend of mine's room-mate had his M1 converted, illegally.

He was getting away with it too, until their room-mate blew his hand off (literally) making a black-powder pipe bomb.  I don't think he was going to anything with it but go out to the middle of nowhere and make a bang, but...

Anyway, the police brought a warrant for the whole place and guess who got busted for an unregistered MG?

All three were arrested and my friend was the only one not convicted.

And if you think they have a standard policy of doing whatever they please, you are seriously delusional. Do they overstep their bounds? Of course, see Waco, et al.  Are there rogue/bad agents? Of course. But your statement that as a matter of policy you give up your 4th Ammendment rights if you own full auto is just wrong. You don't have to own a legal full-auto (or any weapon actually) to run afoul of an agent with a grudge, or one who needs to cover his ass.

I should never have sermonized, this is the wrong forum for it.  I do have an acquaintance in Miami who ended up in jail after inheriting a Marbles Game Getter. It is an ancient SBR.  He didn't get the stamp done in his name in the alloted time after the death of his dad.  They ended up executing a warrant on his home.  He reloaded, so he had powder, he had a garden so he had PVC pipe to repair his sprinkler system.  Together, they are bomb making supplies.  He went to jail as a bomb maker, did about 18 months until his attorney could get a deal made to spring him.

The big cases we all know about, it is the hundreds of little ones, small lives ruined that slip under the radar.  The agents in all agencies are mostly good.  I too was a Federal Agent, went to Glenco and did Coast Guard Tactical Law Enforcement as well.  I was A NOAA Corps Officer for a few years after the Navy (Fish Police).  Some agents are well trained and well intentioned, some are poor agents.  It is the poor ones that got promoted and facilitate poor and mostly illegal practices that scare me. Like regional heads of the FAA that participate in major cover ups.  If I lie to a judge it is perjury, if a DEA agent or ATF agent or FAA for that matter it is a procedural/clerical error in obtaining a warrant.  It is easier to fluff up an affidavit if you mention things like Automatic Weapons, judges have no problem signing those.  So I figure why add to the probable list, I really have had all the auto fire I want.  Sad too, makes the retro guns more authentic if they where actually still automatic.

Burst kits are machine gun parts do not install in an AR-15.



Besides that, putting a three
round burst kit into an AR15 will get you nothing but a single shot,
followed by the hammer down on a live round.

+1  Why does everyone think that 3 round burst is ok to put into an AR15  and will work properly?

Because there is a bunch of first time AR15 owners these days who know absolutely nothing about them. Well, they know as much as the 19 year old kid at Academy that sold it to them does.

That's why we need to help educate these new folks.  If this was in general discussion they would have called him troll and wanted him banned by now.....

Nobody said you had to fire the 1 minute continuously.  Even if you spaced it out over 4 hours, its still $350.  I never found the M60 a wonderful weapon to fire, or carry for that matter.  Now for good clean fun, nothing can beat a .50 Cal.  Again, the government needs to be buying the ammo.  I certainly liked walking the shots up,1 mile away, on smoke pots off the deck edge.

The other downside of the full auto world is the fact that you really agree to a no-knock warrant with the BATF.  They can drop in to inspect any time they want. Privacy is priceless.  I would prefer to play with full auto overseas or rent somebody's here at home.  I would rather spend the money on fuel.

The burst kits available on the market are like the M2 conversion kits for the M1 Carbine.  Easy to find and a danger to own.

I have actually seen a moron melt an SP1 carbine with a Beta mag just doing semi auto.  It was Miami, the 80's and lots of cheap yugo battlepacks.  I was rather funny listening to him try to make it the gun shop's fault it melted.  I'm sure he had visions of assaulting Havana with the rig.  It got so bad that Trail Glades range had to post a warning; no shooting pictures of Castro as targets, later expanded to include ex-wives photos.

I'm looking forward to putting a few belts through my buddie's MG42 sometime this summer, but even as cheap as 8mm is, I'm not looking forward to buying the ammo. I also want to try the Mp40 - could be an expensive day...

thanks  45Bravo that answered so more questions I had I wish this info was posted somewhere so I didn't have to ask.
I just wanted to know if this 3 round blast was machine gun class which I know it is.I could buy me a full auto but I really don't
want to spend $2000 dollars in ammo ever time I shoot it would be a safe trophy, its much easier and cheaper just to rent one
from my local Open Range.

Another serious question I've seen people with full auto Glocks 9mm and 10/22
So these people are a class III since there not post(86) or do these have to be post(86)

From what I read in other places if your weapon is after 1986 it is illegal for anyone to convert it into a full auto, is this true
or can a Class III dealer do this from the business?


I know a lot of guys on here might know these answers but a lot of us don't.

If those guns are post-86, they are not fully transferable, so they would have to be dealer samples.  Even a Class III dealer can't manufacture one, you need to be an 07/SOT, and pay the annual SOT tax to do so.  Ask Coctailer, I think he went through the process.

There are folks with full auto, non-licensed guns out there.  They may be either ignorant of the law or just flaunting it.  There are wagonloads of pubs on how to convert nearly any gun to full auto, and some misinformed or misguided individuals may choose to modify their guns to do just that.  The BATF does not have agents lurking behind every shooting spot, but mostly rely on folks to turn in other folks, or local law to call them in.

Folks do break the law, I see no shortage of pot smokers, crack cocaine users or video tape copiers.  So less than honest folks having illegal full auto guns would not surprise me in the least.

I have an M60, it is a non-functioning one.  I really wouldn't want a real one.  Not much fun to shoot, and at 650-700 Rounds Per Minute, I don't think I want to drop $350 per minute to shoot it either.

When you put it in terms like that, full auto loses a lot of the romance.

Neither is a dummy.
Too bad this only show about 1/3 of the belt.......

 





 

It's all about priorities. At one point for me it was full auto or nothing. Now I cannot afford it, I know I will get another someday, but not now. FYI it's only $350 per minute if you intend to melt the barrel! Then you can add another $400 or whatever a 60 barrel goes for.... Me, I know M16's and .223 reloads are maybe $10 per mag tops. Thats one and a half seconds to chase that clay pigeon my buddy is throwing out into the dessert  ;)