Great Thread!!!

I will be travelling with NFA items for the first time.  I have travelled with Firearms on Airlines before, so no big deal....

Couple questions:
1. WV Address is correct for 5320.20???
2. Do you need to include Articles of Incorporation with the 5320.20???

Thanks!!
Edwin

I'm going to be flying to Alaska and doing some back country stuff.  I've been checking on firearms legalities where I'm going...  besideds that, I was thinking of taking my 6.8 SBR and my 10mm glock.  Can these be transported by air in a single case, or does that depend on the airlines?  I have a big pelican that I was going to put the rifle and 2 mags for that then the pistol and 2 mags, all in one.  I wasn't planning on taking ammo, I was going to try and find a local place to buy it (line it out beforehand), then if I did need to, I can decide that before I leave.  

My other question is, would it be easier to just ship it with good insurance to a pre-setup/negotiated FFL dealer?   Then when I get there, just drive over and pick them up, no dealing with airlines, chance of them getting lost or whatever and at least there's some tracking should something go wrong.  I know a guy that goes up to Thunder Ranch quite a bit and that's his recommendation, says its way more secure.

I have flown Delta for the last four years to Montana for an annual "Rat" hunt....every year I have flown with 2 AR, 1 Pistol, 11 mags, 2 bipods, and cleaning rods in a single Pelican case without any problems.  We ship our ammo (several thousand rounds) to the hotel at least a month early just to make sure UPS doesn't mess anything up.

This picture is old....The 24" RRA A4 now has a fluted barrel and a 13.2 Larue

that's what I figured Edwin, thanks.

This statement is not totally correct.  

Here is a quick quote from the letter I recieved after I tried to get a 5320.20 approved for Transpor Interstate (temporary) of a Silencer:
"In summary, if you are transporting a silencer or "any other weapon," to a temporary location, meaning the firearm is tobe returned to registered address, you are not required to notify the ATF via form 5320.20"

Obvioulsy no gun parts are allow with carry on bags, so they should never g through an airport metal detector or x-ray machine.

Quick note:

Sent my 5320.20 to WV by UPS Blue (so I would have records of the arrival) on 2-13-09, was approved on 2-24-09, got it in the mail today 3-2-09

Great information in here.  I might have to fly with an NFA item from Las Vegas to FL and this has helped me out immensely. Thank you!

Excellent thread!

I have heard folks recommend using a travel case that is over-sized to ensure that the luggage doesn't come out the normal routes at your destination airport. This way, your travel case has to go to the baggage claim or over-sized handling area. Obviously, if you're traveling only with a single handgun, this doesn't make sense. But, if you're traveling with 1 or 2 rifles, magazines, suppressors, etc., this might make more sense.

Under FAA Regulation once it has been declared and checked, NO trace of this contents of that particular piece of luggage should exist in the airline's system. They know you have a suitcase with weapons checked, but NOT which one. This keeps baggage handlers from stealing the suitcase, or if it gets lost in transient, it staying lost.  If this ever happens again, a formal complaint to the FAA should be filed as well as a complaint with the Air Line's corporate office and with the Department of Homeland Security. The form that gets put INSIDE the hard-shell box is so that if the box gets damaged and the contents spilled the baggage handlers know the weapon(s) is/are unloaded, that they have been inspected as such by an outside authority and that they are in no risk of being shot.

Thats exactly what happens...it goes on the baggage spinner with eveything else...so you haul ass through the airport so your standing there when the first bag comes out...I always mark my bags with a spray painted stencil so that you can see its your bag from 50 yards away....gives u a heads up if someone grabs your bag before you can get to it.

Is there any place to download a 5320.2?

Thanks.

Good info for sure...  I have flown many times with firearms and have never had any issues with agents, attitudes, etc...

I will share one experience when I was going from Chicago to Kalifornia with some collector grade Garands.  TSA was checking my case and opening it as I watched them swab the case inside and outside for what reasons I don't know.  the TSA guy was trying to figure out how to check the firearms to see that they were unloaded.  I offered and he motioned me to come over the "yellow" line.  Another TSA guy shouted for me to stay where I was.  He opened the bolt on the Garand, and yes, he closed it on his thumb...  I had to laugh and told him I offered to assist....

I just sprinted to the baggage claim area so I'd be the first one there, grabbed my gun case off the baggage carousel and left.



Any padlock will do. If you have four places for locks, I'd put four locks on there. It's harder to pry open a case when it's locked on both ends and twice in the middle than it is to pry it open when there is one lock in the center. The case I'm flying with next month has four locking latches and I'm putting a huge padlock on the handle and zip typing everything else.

When I used to work for the airlines (pre 9/11/01) I escorted many military personnel out on the tarmac to visually observe that their arms were loaded.  I did this for both passengers and also when arms were shipped via cargo.  

Come to think of it...that was during Desert Storm.  I remember at that time in the pilot's lounge, many pilots were also reserve pilots for the military and they'd be on the phone trying to figure out how they could get active and serve their country.

Just some history on the tag being outside or inside.  I worked for the airlines through the 90's and I remember the change in handling firearms as luggage.  

The Tag
Before 1993, the tag was required to go on the outside.  Yes, this was a dumb idea.  An amendment to the Brady Bill was a part that changed that so the tag would go on the inside.  


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=103_cong_bills&docid=f:h1025eas.txt.pdf

The Airline Counter
So at the airline counter, we started putting them on the inside when the FAA finally told us too (note, this did not happen with the law, we had to wait for the FAA to implement it).  For my airline, company policy was not to touch the firearm and we had no need to even look at it.  We would explain the unloaded part and any other policies, but only the passenger would be the one dealing with the firearm.  The "gun tag" was also signed by the passenger to basically be a disclaimer for the airline that it was the passenger's responsibility for the firearm to be unloaded.

For the airline next to us, their policy was totally different.  They were supposed to "inspect" the gun, which typically meant they asked the passenger to open the case and visually show it to them.  Personally, I was a little jealous as I wanted to see all the stuff.  My friends that worked for the other airline said they had no clue of anything they were looking at (we were in a large metropolitan city).  Sometimes the workers at the neighboring airline would ask me to come over to look and I'd be smiles with the customer and we'd have a short chat about being a fellow shooter and their firearm.  But I didn't want to show too much interest because I didn't want to make the passengers nervous or anything about an airline worker liking their stuff too much.  

The Baggage Office
I also worked as the baggage office person a lot and I made sure to have obvious gun cases pulled from the line and brought through the office so I could call the passenger directly and ensure they got their bag ok.  Sometimes thieves would hang out at the baggage carousels.  Those "Docosil" type cases met our requirements for a hard-case, but they were total crap for any real protection.  One could bend up the side with their bare hands and pull out a gun if they really wanted to.  Or just cut through the plastic in a hurry.  Even for an inside-job baggage thief, they need time.  Some passengers would wrap a couple layers of duct tape around the bag at the end of the check-in process.  This was actually good stuff to prevent "inside job" theft.  Then again, back in the pre-9/11 days we could fly with sub-4" knives.  Today, passengers wouldn't have an easy way to get the tape off.

Airline Policy
Policies varied a lot between airlines.  The hierarchy is like this:
* Congress creates a law
* The FAA takes the law and creates a mandate for the airlines
* The airline would then come up with a company policy to present to the FAA
* The FAA would give the policy a "pass" or "no pass"

This meant that the airline next to us only allowed 20 rounds total of ammunition while my airline allowed 50lbs of ammo.  Sadly, these differences still exist today.

Plus, some smaller airlines don't fly under Part 121 and can modify some of the rules.  

The Airline's NFA Policy
For NFA weapons, my airline had no specific policy at the time on it.  We flew a bunch of NFA stuff, usually for the Fed.  Most times for the Secret Service, but sometimes for the FBI.  We also flew arms for the military as cargo and a military person was allowed to watch that cargo until it was loaded and the aircraft took off..then another military person was on the other end to observe.  The military was nice to work with at the airport.  But the easiest was the Secret Service, they always had their act together and planned things far in advance any time we worked with them.

Airline workers not likely ARFCOM members
Unfortunately, airline workers were rarely familiar with firearms.  One day in a supervisor's meeting I was holding for the reservation center, I was joking about an airline agent that was asked about a semi-auto version of an AK and was about to deny the passenger from flying with it.  I had corrected the agent so the passenger could fly.  But at the end of the story, I was met with blank stares until one of the other supervisors asked me "...do...we....allow AK's?"  Why yes! It's just a self-loading firearm like so many others.  Even so, we also flew NFA weapons, so it's not like there was a distinction on luggage anyway.  And these were supervisors! *sigh*

Odd attempt at Airline NFA Policy
In the late 90's, my airline came up with a policy out of the blue for NFA weapons.  It wasn't advertised, I just happened across it the week after it was put into the policy.  It was pretty weird and it seemed like somebody had just made stuff up.  One part of it defined a "machine gun" as one that could fire more than 5 rounds in a second.  I guess this meant that Jerry Miculek couldn't fly his S&W revolvers with us...lol!

I did some research and wrote a letter to a director at headquarters.  I cited current law at the time of the Fed definition of NFA weapons and how many NFA weapons were estimated on the registry.  I further cited federal law that it made no distinction at the time as to what a common carrier would fly as luggage.  Last, I cited our many federal agencies and military that commonly flew with us (as the new policy did not have an "only ones" provision it would have also barred LEOs from flying with their NFAs).  I'm not sure if it was a career-limiting move or not, but a month later, that odd policy was gone and the old one was back.

Baggage Insurance
When I worked for the airlines, each domestic passenger (not per-bag) was insured up to $1250 for lost/damaged luggage.  A passenger could purchase more at the rate of $1 per 100.  The max was $5000 coverage for $38 prepayment.  Given today's insanity with airlines charging for any checked luggage, it's possible this part could have changed.  But the important part is, if you're flying with checked guns, be aware of the airline's monetary liability.


My best "flying with guns" story
During Desert Storm we were flying a lot of military.  Sometimes on the scheduled flights and other times on charters.  Almost all of them were just the personnel and not their gear.  I even did a night charter of some Japanese military...they didn't have their gear with them, but they were all carrying what looked like take-out food that they were still eating.  But one day I was working the charter and was told that we'd have a flight of US personnel and their gear.  

I was at the 727-200 with the rear stairs down (I miss the '27...it was a cool aircraft..though heavy and not as efficient).  We were at the remote part of the airport and the baggage people had the bag-loaders waiting by the open baggage pit doors.  The Lt. showed up first and said the buses would be there shortly.  He also said that they would load the luggage for us if we wanted to move the equipment out of the way.  So we did.

What happened next was the cool part....

The buses arrived and like a perfectly-timed ballet, the soldier exited the buses in double time, each with a gear bag and each with an M-16.  They ran to the luggage pit area and tossed in their gear (a couple soldiers got in the pits to help organize the luggage).  After tossing their gear bag in the pit, they ran to the rear air stairs and boarded the aircraft with their rifle.  It must have been only 2 minutes, but the plane was fully loaded....something I had never seen before nor since.

I boarded the 727-200 up the rear air stairs to finalize the paperwork with the flight crew and before closing it all up and I wished I had a camera.  There was 140 muzzles sticking up as each soldier was holding their rifle in their lap.  I trotted down the airstairs and sealed up the aircraft and waited in the truck as it powered up and headed toward the runway.

I later left the airline business and 9/11 happened and the TSA runs the show.

If you are traveling state to state via auto or train do you have to file a 5320.20?  I feel like I've seen the answer before but I can't remember now.

Thanks in advance!

Thanks Tony, good to know.  What are the limits on time you can put on the 'from and to' section?  If you have a vacation home in a bordering state or something can you just file it out for 6 month periods at a time or is that something they won't like seeing?

I have scanned all my Tax Stamps as well as my Trust paperwork and keep them all on my iPhone.  That way I always have a copy of them with me.  The originals are in a fire safe at home.  After reading through this I got to thinking that bookmarking the website with the ATF regulations regarding owning and traveling with NFA weapons on my phones internet browser wouldn't be a bad idea either...maybe even saving those regs as a document on the phone.

Before I got an iPhone I used a copy machine and made 25% size copies of each of the tax stamps then set them next to each other and made another copy putting 4 to a sheet of paper (as my collection grew I ended up with 2 sheets of paper printed front and back) then folded it up and put it in my wallet.  Then I only had 2 sheets of paper in my wallet instead of 10+

Whatever you do please do not fly into a New York airport and have any contact with your guns(NFA or not).  Obviously earlier checked guns will only be handled by airport personnel if on a connecting flight.
See article:   http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Tea-Party-Leader-Gun-Possession-LaGuardia-Airport-LGA-Plea-Guilty-137198318.html

I think it's convenient we can travel like this with these, but parts of it sure are a pain in the ass.

Box 8 of the form requires the name and address of the common carrier.  These forms are valid for up to a year.  How can one possibly expect to know one's travel plans for every trip during that year?  Some are spur of the moment.

So what this means is that you have to fill out like 6 forms for every weapon you wish to travel with.  One form for each for traveling by automobile, five forms for each airline you could fly (for example Delta, US Airways, JetBlue, Southwest, and United).  And thats for 1 weapon.  For someone like me who might travel with up to 8 NFA weapons, that would be 48 forms.

And if they could potentially travel to more than one address, that would be 96 or 144 forms.

It's ludicrous.  They should approve the form for any means of transport to the address...the nitpicking results in ridiculousness

Granted, you can put more than one weapon on each form so it's negated slightly, but you get the point

When I flew with my M16 ( pre TSA BS) I asked an ATF agent specifically if I should tell the ticket girl about it and he said no.  He said show her it is unloaded just like a regular semi and don't tell her it is a machine gun, they don't need to know and it could cause unwanted panic or cause it to get stolen.

Yes, there is no need at all to describe your weapons for the ticket agent in any way. I just open the case, assure them it is unloaded (generally they just take my word for it, few of them know how to clear an assault rifle), and then I'm on my way to the TSA "Special" line.

I know by now it's probably been beat like a dead horse, but I have flown with my SBR and two suppressors on Alaska Airlines. Included Form 4's and Form 1 in the case with the 5320.20 although the case was locked and, of course, never opened. I was intimidated at first but it was actually easier to check it than it was with my actual luggage (which was 2lb overweight)! I now plan on flying with my SBR every time I visit my cabin in Montana and back.

I will chime in on Alaska airlines. I flew from Austin to anchorage with my mk12, 2- handguns and 2 suppressors. Also took 400rds of ammo. Ticket agent put the declaration form in my case. I carried it unlocked to TSA who never opened it. They ran it through X-ray put my locks on while I watched and off I went. Changed planes in Seattle. Got to anchorage and got my bag off the carrousel and went to customer service,showed ID and walked away with my case. Easy as can be. The ammo was in my suitcase. They never even asked but I told them I had ammo. The ticket agent asked if it was in approved containers. I said yes. She never checked. Alaska airlines allows 11lbs of ammo on domestic flights. Coming back same routine. Easy as can be. The only thing that bothered me is when I got back to Austin they didn't ask for ID to pick up my gun case. They just said take it.
 Alaska airlines gets an A+ for gun friendliness. My advice. BE POLITE!!! Act like an ass you'll be treated like one. Be honest. Your not doing anything shady. Don't be overly helpful. Just follow instructions. I've also heard DO NOT fly through New York. No matter how much extra time or money stay away. Many people have been arrested due to a cancelled or changed flight. The stories are all over. I think they prevail in the end but at a huge cost. You may best the wrap but you won't beat the ride.

  Just huge kudos to Alaska airlines. My new favorite airline.

My experiences: 100% of the time in Seattle, they set the bags aside and you show ID to pick them up. Spokane, ABQ, Redmond Oregon, San Diego, they send them out with the other bags. Vegas, they divert all of them to an enclosed office where you pick them up with an ID check.

I really like flying on Alaska!