Anyone have experience flying with NFA? I am planning to relocate and am looking into how much of a hassle it would be to fly with an SBR and a suppressor. Has the experience been the same as with regular firearms or did they"freak out" once you uttered the word..."SILENCER"?

Thanks in advanced

Originally Posted By Eleven-Bravo228: Anyone have experience flying with NFA? I am planning to relocate and am looking into how much of a hassle it would be to fly with an SBR and a suppressor. Has the experience been the same as with regular firearms or did they"freak out" once you uttered the word..."SILENCER"? Thanks in advanced

I've flown with NFA multiple times.  There are a number of things you should do to prepare before travel.

1.  Make sure you receive an approved 5320.20 for all NFA (suppressors and AOWs exempted).  Note that filing a 5320.20 even for suppressors and AOWs can help later on-- see below for an explanation of the "document dump."

2.  Check with the airline before traveling to ensure that they don't restrict certain guns.  (For example, America West banned MGs unless you were govt/leo.)  You definitely want to find out if they're friendly BEFORE buying those non-refundable tickets!

3.  Check with the airline to find out their policy on how to ship the firearm.  FAA says that the gun must be in a locked hard sided case.  If you're traveling with a smaller weapon, can you put this case into a larger case?  Can that outer case be soft-sided?  This may or may not be moot depending upon the size of the firearm being transported and/or if the firearm is broken down.  

Incidentally, I find that Storm Cases are the BEST firearm cases for air travel.

4.  Unless you have a very good reason, buy ammo at your destination.  Most airlines have some ridiculously low amount of ammo they allow you to check.  Furthermore, being able to say "I have a firearm to declare but I am not traveling with any ammunition" always seems to quiet the most nervous ticketing agent.

5.  Find out how your insurance treats a lost or stolen firearm.  A strained cell phone conversation in a strange airport is NOT the place to discover that your limit for lost baggage is only $300.00.

6.  Have hard copies of the airline's own policies and FAA regs at the ready for any ticketing agents who don't know what they're doing.

Federal law requires you to declare that you are transporting a firearm and to demonstrate that it is unloaded.  Forget curb side check-in; you'll be doing this the old-fashioned way.  Go to the ticketing agent and say "I have a firearm to declare."  They'll give you a tag to sign that says (among other things) that the firearm(s) is/are unloaded.  This tag goes inside the case with the firearm(s)!  It used to be law that these tags went on the outside of the case- they were known as "steal-me tags" within the airline industry for a reason!  Should the ticketing agent attempt to place the tag on the outside, politely explain that they go inside.  If they object, demand a supervisor.  They are not only placing your firearms in jeopardy, but they're also violating federal law.  Remember that the case with the gun(s) must be locked-- don't go anywhere until after security clears the case.  They WILL break the locks off if you're not around, and an unlocked case doesn't fly.

In terms of my practice, I just hand my case to the ticketing agent and inform them that firearms are present.  (Not "machine guns" or "short barreled rifles" or "sawed off" or whatever-- they're all "firearms."  Incidentally, calling a silencer a "barrel extension" avoids a lot of trouble.)  Ticketing agents generally don't know what they're looking at anyhow; I've yet to have one that knew how to inspect the gun to ensure it's unloaded and 50% don't even bother checking!  I've only had one bit of trouble with an anti-gun ticketing agent-- I just did the document dump and they were cowed.

10 minutes of homework will spare you uncounted hours of trouble.  You should be fine; just make sure to plan ahead.  I've traveled with all types of NFA weapons on multiple airlines.  Aside from that one ticketing agent (which I handled easily enough- see below), it's not an issue.

Good luck,

Mike

The Black Art of the Document Dump:  Document dumps are fun when done right but should be rarely done to ensure they don't lose effectiveness.  They work well on low to mid-level bureaucrats, politicians, managerial types, secretaries, etc.  

As soon as you get any flack, gently brush it aside.  Act like this is all old hat, nothing special.  Then begin to bring out papers and talk with a bored voice.  "Here are copies of my Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (DON'T use the word "explosives" in a %$#@! airport!) Registration Forms, Type #4, approved by the Chief of Police of Blahblahblah County and by the Bureau itself for each firearm in the case.  (Always stress higher authority-- "federal", "state of..."  "city of...")  Here are Federally Approved Transportation Forms for these Firearms, Type 5320.20, approved for this journey as per the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms..."  *thwap!*  Make sure you *thwap* them down on the counter slowly enough so they see the forms but fast enough to keep adding to the pile without them pulling papers out to inspect them.  "Here is a copy of my firearms ownership and carry permit as issued by the State of Blahblahblah..."  (Bonus for multiple permits!)  *thwap!*  Here's the copy of my Type 03 Federally issued Firearms License (in other words, your C&R) as issued and approved by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms..."  *thwap!*  (Note that your guns being or not being C&R is irrelevant.)  I've also whipped out papers for my LLC, formation papers, minutes from meetings, a travel itenary, copies of my driver's license "with special endorsements" (I can ride a motorcycle and need to wear glasses!)...  Your goal is to pull out so much paperwork that the object of the document dump becomes overwhelmed and just passes you through the system.

It's yet to fail.  Thankfully I've only needed to do it once for travel purposes.  (Using it at Zoning & Planning in City Hall is another post for a different forum.)  

Nice post prebans!

10 out of 10

Originally Posted By soowah: Nice post prebans! 10 out of 10

+1  Very informative.  I like the "if they ask, it's a barrel extension"

This isn't NFA specific, but when I travel with my 1911, I lock the slide back and put a cable lock through the grip.  So far I have not even been asked to open the case because they can see on an xray that it's empty.  I keep mags separate too.  My locked hard case was inside a regular suitcase and they let me put the tag in the suitcase.

Mike,

Thanks for the great post...much appreciated.

11-Bravo

nice post   +1

Slug-O

Originally Posted By tony_k: Great info, Mike! (Especially the Document Dump.) Unless you object, I'm tacking this thread.

You're going to laugh, but I've been searching for this post since yesterday.  ("Golly gee, maybe they pulled the post because they thought the document dump description was over the top..?")  

TonyK, no problem with you tacking it.  I've traveled with NFA weapons of different stripes and (aside from that one time) have never had a real problem because I was prepared.  That's the real secret to travelling with any firearm, much less NFA weapons- be prepared.  

As for the Document Dump, I'm glad everyone likes it!  The key to any document dump (aside from a pile of official-looking documents) is to have a "boring" confidence.  You're in the right, you've done this before, here's the paperwork, no big deal, blah blah blah.

I need to give one warning-- NEVER lie.  If you're NOT a cop, DON'T claim to be one.  If you're NOT gov't, DON'T claim to be gov't.  Lying can and will get you arrested.  You'll notice I used a lot of creative wording to describe things:  "Here are copies of my Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Registration Forms, Type #4, approved by the Chief of Police of Blahblahblah County and by the Bureau itself for each firearm in the case."  All you said was "Here's the papers for each gun in the case."  There are NO LIES here.  Fancy language is just fancy language; it is NOT lying.  If you're reading this and know you have trouble with story-telling, the Document Dump is NOT a tactic to be used.

Words mean things.  Moving away from the importance of your wording with document dumps, the way you refer to your firearms definitely affects others.  Calling your SBR/SBS a "sawed off" can raise the wrong eyebrows.  Calling that weird looking tube thingy a "silencer" will get attention.  Pointing to your AR-15 and saying "assault rifle" is a conversation stopper-- especially at an airport where paranoia and tension are always high.  You have firearms to declare.  You have a handgun with accessories to check.

The bottom line? Be prepared, be professional, and be truthful.  Follow that advice and you and your firearms travel without trouble.  

Mike

great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines.

besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble.

also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that.

Originally Posted By MariusDeAdamas: great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines. besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble. also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that.

Speaking to your questions in order:

1.  Anything to do with a firearm has to be checked.  I personally was hoping that on e could carry on items like sears, RLLs, etc., but they are regulated as firearms.  FAA says all firearms must be checked.  Thus things like small tubes, tiny widgets, and broken hacksaw blades must still be checked.  

2.  Getting caught and having someone find out what you're carrying is a HUGE problem.  Losing the item permanently will be the least of your worries for attempting to carry on anything to do with a firearm.  (Incidentally, the FAA has banned the carrying on of ANY firearm parts.  Even a wood buttstock by itself is verboten.)

3.  I don't follow your third question.  Please explain further.

Thanks,

Mike

Originally Posted By prebans: Originally Posted By MariusDeAdamas: great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines. besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble. also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that. Speaking to your questions in order: 1.  Anything to do with a firearm has to be checked.  I personally was hoping that on e could carry on items like sears, RLLs, etc., but they are regulated as firearms.  FAA says all firearms must be checked.  Thus things like small tubes, tiny widgets, and broken hacksaw blades must still be checked.   2.  Getting caught and having someone find out what you're carrying is a HUGE problem.  Losing the item permanently will be the least of your worries for attempting to carry on anything to do with a firearm.  (Incidentally, the FAA has banned the carrying on of ANY firearm parts.  Even a wood buttstock by itself is verboten.) 3.  I don't follow your third question.  Please explain further. Thanks, Mike

Sorry, I probably shouldn't speak for another, but I believe this is what he's saying:  Is it legal to carry just the suppressor on the airline, and not declare it, as the actual firearm it is to be attached to is waiting at the destination?

In view of your Answer 1.) above, I would say it is not legal to fail to declare a firearm part, and this is, at best, a "barrel extension."

Under the NFA, a "silencer" is considered a firearm in and of itself (see the section of the NFA entitled "definitions"). It is considered an "NFA firearm" and is to be treated as such. I would definitely get the Form 5320.20 approved and then check it in at the appropriate location. Please, do NOT walk through the metal detector with a suppressor in your bag or on your person---I can see the national news headlines now: "terrorist attack thwarted..."

As stated earlier, a document dump should not be done unless absolutely necessary.  I used to subscribe to the carry your form 4 theory, but no longer.  I got to thinking, this is a tax document and only two agencies can demand to see it so now I leave it at home and have the ATF on the speed dial of my cell phone.  As a substitute, I carry a copy of the law with the pertinent portions highlighted and a copy of the airline’s guidelines for firearms.  There is no need to spread the disinformation that a form 4 is a permit or a license or that it needs to be present with the NFA item or the person traveling with it.  Of the numerous times I have flown with firearms, only once have I been asked to verify it is unloaded although I always offer.  If for no other reason, how often do you get to jack the action of a firearm in the airport and get away with it?  The federal regulations for firearms are surprisingly loose and leave a lot up to the airline.  Another way to look at it is if you don't make a big deal out of it they likely won't either.  If anyone gives you grief about flying with an NFA item or any other firearm I would request their supervisor and possibly a TSA officer as well.  This will remove the burden of responsibility from the schmuck you are dealing with and/or add an intimidation factor plus it displays the need for continued training and if you have to be a part of it, you should do your part in ensuring it is complete and correct.  

Also when flying with a firearm, I am careful to show up in time to check them at the desk and give sufficient time to clear with TSA, but not enough time for a TSA agent to play with them.  They should only have time to be concerned with the law being followed and not what you are traveling with or what they wish they had or time for them to find a mirror to rehearse “Are you talkin to me” or “say hello to my little friend” etc. etc.  You would have to be a complete moron to try to travel with illegal NFA and it should take a moron to catch you doing it.  

Liberty is yours, you inherited it, don’t surrender it without a fight or squander it for a false sense of security.  

AWESOME POST!!!


Tag  

Great post. Preban forgot to mention one thing. Its a small detail. If you are a LEO and want to fly armed, have your chief or sheriff complete a memo saying you watched the 15 minute FAA video, list your flight schedule for departing and returning; flight number, airline and such and both of you sign it. Check in at the desk with this letter and LEO identification and badge and you can fly with anything.

I always fly armed; for pleasure or work. I recently flew to Los Angeles with an MP5. It was my carry on. I met with the pilot, flight crew and air marshall. On my return trip I actually knew the air marshall when he worked for the sheriff's office.

I highly recommend that if you are a LEO you always fly armed. Being a SWAT guy, I know that if the plane is hijacked you wont be flying to long when the f-18's show up. Been to many seminars, you will be shot down!

Originally Posted By JPratt06: Under the NFA, a "silencer" is considered a firearm in and of itself (see the section of the NFA entitled "definitions"). It is considered an "NFA firearm" and is to be treated as such. I would definitely get the Form 5320.20 approved and then check it in at the appropriate location. Please, do NOT walk through the metal detector with a suppressor in your bag or on your person---I can see the national news headlines now: "terrorist attack thwarted..."

+1.  Nowhere above was I advising anyone to attempt to carry on ANYTHING to do with a firearm.  Whether they're just parts (a lone bolt carrier) or a firearm (silencer, stripped receiver, or a full gun), DO NOT CARRY THEM ON.

5320.20 is required for all NFA items EXCEPT suppressors and AOWs.  ATF will approve a 5320.20 if you submit one for a suppressor and/or AOW, though-- sometimes having that extra paperwork is useful not only for counter people but also for county cops who don't know what they're doing.

FWIW,

Mike

Originally Posted By geerhed: Originally Posted By prebans: Originally Posted By MariusDeAdamas: great post, my own question is do silencers have to be checked? being its a NFA registered item, i read that they didn't even need a form to transport them across lines. besides haveing to do the document dump again at the x-ray machine is there any reason you couldn't stick it in your pocket or lock it in your carry-on... or is that just extra trouble. also if u had a firearm waiting at your destination say a friend with the same barrel threads as the silencer, could u travel without delcareing a firearm (not haveing one) but still transport the silencer... my guess is no it would be lots of trouble, id rather mail it to my destination.... but is it legal to do carry it like that. Speaking to your questions in order: 1.  Anything to do with a firearm has to be checked.  I personally was hoping that on e could carry on items like sears, RLLs, etc., but they are regulated as firearms.  FAA says all firearms must be checked.  Thus things like small tubes, tiny widgets, and broken hacksaw blades must still be checked.   2.  Getting caught and having someone find out what you're carrying is a HUGE problem.  Losing the item permanently will be the least of your worries for attempting to carry on anything to do with a firearm.  (Incidentally, the FAA has banned the carrying on of ANY firearm parts.  Even a wood buttstock by itself is verboten.) 3.  I don't follow your third question.  Please explain further. Thanks, Mike Sorry, I probably shouldn't speak for another, but I believe this is what he's saying:  Is it legal to carry just the suppressor on the airline, and not declare it, as the actual firearm it is to be attached to is waiting at the destination? In view of your Answer 1.) above, I would say it is not legal to fail to declare a firearm part, and this is, at best, a "barrel extension."

Correct.

I'll also add that you generally don't get in trouble for OVER-declaring but you WILL get in trouble for UNDER-declaring.  I traveled with two dozen parts kits once and declared each.  They were NOT firearms under the law (no receivers), but imagine the hell if some moron at the X-Ray machine saw a bunch of "firearms in a broken down state."

If you're traveling with a can, just bring the gun that goes with it.  You'll have to declare no matter what.

FWIW,

Mike

Originally Posted By nmbsniper1: Great post. Preban forgot to mention one thing. Its a small detail. If you are a LEO and want to fly armed, have your chief or sheriff complete a memo saying you watched the 15 minute FAA video, list your flight schedule for departing and returning; flight number, airline and such and both of you sign it. Check in at the desk with this letter and LEO identification and badge and you can fly with anything. I always fly armed; for pleasure or work. I recently flew to Los Angeles with an MP5. It was my carry on. I met with the pilot, flight crew and air marshall. On my return trip I actually knew the air marshall when he worked for the sheriff's office. I highly recommend that if you are a LEO you always fly armed. Being a SWAT guy, I know that if the plane is hijacked you wont be flying to long when the f-18's show up. Been to many seminars, you will be shot down!

I didn't mention it because I didn't know about it- I'm just a lowly non-LE schmuck.  

Glad to hear you're able to carry, though!  I wish most LE would carry on board.

Mike

I fly with weapons all the time but not NFA.  I believe the individual airlines' rules vary and those I fly prohibit guns OR GUN PARTS in carry on luggage.  In other words put everything in your pelican or hardcase and check/declare.

What if you get diverted and land in a non-NFA friendly state?

If you did your paperwork to transport out of state, you are covered while going through a non nfa state.

I would shut the hell up and not talk about it.

Okay, so I've never flown with fireamrs before and am about to fly to *PERSEC* in a month and am taking an AR with me. I bought a pelican case (1700 series) and am going to pick up the locks for it. I know I need to check it, fill out the tag, have the TSA's inspect it, put the tag inside, lock it up... and then what, how does it go down from there?

They put it with all the other luggage on the plane? Or in another compartment? When the plane arrives at the destination, does the case come out with all of the other luggage at the baggage claim? Or do I go to some desk and sign out for it? I'd be afraid of it coming through and having some punk grab my case and split before I could notice. Worries me to death actually.

Insight into the other side of the flight would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

That's correct, it goes in with the other luggage and comes out the same way when you arrive at your destination. Plane and simple. No pun intended.

Originally Posted By nmbsniper1: That's correct, it goes in with the other luggage and comes out the same way when you arrive at your destination. Plane and simple. No pun intended.

Not always- at least at the destination.  I've sat at a baggage carousel with my luggage and wondering where my gun cases went.  Then the infamous disembodied voice comes over the loudspeaker...

"Mr. Prebans, please report to (Airline's name here) baggage information center."

They had my gun cases held at the office.  I don't know how they knew those cases needed special treatment (frankly, that bothers me a bit), but they had them set aside in a locked cabinet until I came to personally pick 'em up.

FYI,

Mike

This tag goes inside the case with the firearm(s)! It used to be law that these tags went on the outside of the case- they were known as "steal-me tags" within the airline industry for a reason! Should the ticketing agent attempt to place the tag on the outside, politely explain that they go inside. If they object, demand a supervisor. They are not only placing your firearms in jeopardy, but they're also violating federal law

While that is typically true (it is true for larger airlines) it doesnt apply to smaller regioanl airlines that have smaller planes.  
I ran into this while flying home with a new gun.  The company was Frontier Flying Service (not frontier airlines).  They are a small (20 passanger airlcraft) company.
It is their policy that ALL firearms must have a large orange tag on the outside of the case that says firearm.  This tag must be exposed at all times.  Granted this is an airline that flies out of the main airline terminal, but you do not have to go through any airport screening to board the plane.
I argued with the lady, supervisior, head of flight ops, and TSA for nearly an hour about this.  All gave me the same answer.  Airlines this size do not fall under all federal/FAA restrictions and can set polocies as they see fit.  Faced with the prospect of missing my flight or risking it, I chose to risk it only after getting a signed receipt for what was in my bag.
When I got home I called and verified that they can legally do this.
The supervisior told me it was for their safety because guns are dangoerous and they want their baggage guys taking extra precautions when handling guns.  She did say that she cant remember a gun ever being stolen and they have done this for a long time.  

Some Airports the gun cases, just like golf clubs, skis or any other oversized bag will show up at the baggage claim office or they may have a conveyor specificly for oversized objects.

Originally Posted By nmbsniper1: That's correct, it goes in with the other luggage and comes out the same way when you arrive at your destination. Plane and simple. No pun intended.

While you are obligated to declare the firearms (including cans, RDIAS's, RLL's, etc), you are not obligated to educate them as to what things are.

Since they are required to inspect to ensure they are unloaded, when I declare my weapons I open the case for them to see.  I don't say a word.  Usually, at this point, the little girl with the terrified look says "...uh... OK..." and gives me my declaration tag to put inside the case.  Usually, they don't seem to know which end the bullets are supposed to come out of, and ask if they are unloaded.

As long as each case containing a 'firearm' has the orange firearm inspection tag in it, filled out for the flight you are on, you have fulfilled your obligation.

<-- Wants to see an Arfcommer standing at the counter peering through a suppressor like it's a telescope.

"Nope, it ain't loaded"...

Originally Posted By PromptCritical: <-- Wants to see an Arfcommer standing at the counter peering through a suppressor like it's a telescope. "Nope, it ain't loaded"...

I did that already- the agent demanded I check to ensure it wasn't loaded.

Everything went fine after I verified that my suppressor was indeed clear.

(No, I wish I was making that up.)  

Mike

Originally Posted By eodinert: While you are obligated to declare the firearms (including cans, RDIAS's, RLL's, etc), you are not obligated to educate them as to what things are. Since they are required to inspect to ensure they are unloaded, when I declare my weapons I open the case for them to see.  I don't say a word.  Usually, at this point, the little girl with the terrified look says "...uh... OK..." and gives me my declaration tag to put inside the case.  Usually, they don't seem to know which end the bullets are supposed to come out of, and ask if they are unloaded. As long as each case containing a 'firearm' has the orange firearm inspection tag in it, filled out for the flight you are on, you have fulfilled your obligation.

+ 1 That is what I have done when flying with non-NFA and NFA firearms including my 60 mm mortar.

I once flew with a foot locker with 15 M16's on military orders. The orders authorized my to fly on a government travel authorization but Army regs required me to visually see the footlocker being loaded onto the aircraft.

Missed my flight while we argued about that military regulation. Airline wouldn't let me on the tarmac to view the loading. Finally I was allowed to watch the loading from a closed section window near the loading ramp.

In the course of all this, I eventually spoke to every person in the airline chain of command in one day.

I was going advance party to Desert Storm.

Thank you for the info in this thread. I just recently completed my first trip with two NFA items and everything went perfectly smooth and I was very well prepared due to the information in the thread.

I traveled from DFW to Las Vegas (Front Sight) for a rifle course and brought a SBR, Suppressor and a 16" AR all in one Starlite case. I had all my forms copied 5 times and separated into different folders for DFW airport, Las Vegas Airport, Front Sight and a copy kept for me in the rifle case and a set in my carry on.

ATF - Took over 30 days on my 5320.20 and when I called to check on it my examiner never returned my calls. I eventually called and asked to talk to a supervisor and I was routed to Dawn Henson. She was very nice and understanding and had me fax my form to her and she approved it and faxed it back to me in less than 30 mins. I was very happy dealing with her.

DFW Terminal C - I self checked and indicated I had 2 bags to check. Before I got to the counter to declare the items I was tapped on the shoulder by a TSA agent and asked if the case had firearms in it. I indicated it did and I was waiting to declare them when it was my turn at the counter, I was then lead to the 'little room' where a TSA agent asked me to unlock the case, step back behind the line on the floor and he visually inspected the contents of the case, asked me to fill out the declaration form and hand it to him to put in the case and then he opened my other bag to verify the location and condition of the ammo in the suit case (I had 200 rounds boxed 5.56 in each case...right at 5lbs each which is AA max per bag). After the visual inspection the TSA agent closed each bag and asked me to re-lock both cases. After that was done, the cases were taken out of view and I didn't see them again until I landed. I was never asked for any ATF paperwork of any kind and I am not even sure the TSA agent knew what he was looking at to be honest. I don't think he even noticed the suppressor in the case.

Las Vegas AMR counter - I self checked again but this time no tap on the shoulder instead the I was called to the counter and I informed the counter agent that I had items to declare. She was very nice and cordial and never asked to see anything, she did ask me to assure her that my rifle was unloaded. I filled out the declaration form, put it in the case and relocked it. When I was done checking in my bag (no ammo left ) I was then instructed to take the rifle case to the TSA agent running the Xray machine near the check-in area (not the one in the normal screening area but a separate roped off one outside the secured area). I was asked to stand by until the case cleared the xray machine. TSA never opened the case but rather screened it, gave me a thumbs up and I proceeded to the normal security screening area. At no time was I ever asked for any ATF paperwork by AMR or TSA.

Overall I felt very prepared and sure of the process and had no major issues at any point coming or going. In DFW I wasn't allowed to zip tie the case shut after I applied the TSA approved locks - I wasn't allowed to touch the case after it was handed to TSA for screening other than to lock the case locks. In Vegas I locked the case with TSA locks and then zip tied the other locking locations and TSA in Vegas had no issues with that.

I am glad I had all the paperwork ready to go because it was obvious in comments made that none of the people involved in the process really knew the specifics but all were content with the way things looked. Nobody weighed the ammo at all but whenever I was asked about how much I had I always replied "5 pounds per checked bag" which is verbatim from the AMR web site (TSA limit is 11lbs per passenger max/AMR says 11lbs max but only 5lbs per checked bag with a 2 bag limit....go figure)

It is always a good idea to have a copy of this:

TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

478.31(b)
(b) No common or contract carrier shall
require or cause any label, tag, or other
written notice to be placed on the outside
of any package, luggage, or other container
indicating that such package, luggage,
or other container contains a firearm.

I'm filling out my 5320.20 for SBR and Suppressor right now.  couple questions....

Block 5
Reason for transportation of firearms (example: permanent change of address)

I want to get some range time while on vacation.


What exactly meets the criteria for a valid reason?  How have others filled this block?

Block 4 (weapon description)
The PDF won't let me fill this block in.  Anyone else have this problem?

thanks!

I think any legal reason is valid. Doesn't have to be "important," just legal.

Block 4 I used the form from TittleII and I put in the respective blocks left to right:
BFI - SBR - YES - .223 - XM15ES - bbl length in inches - OA length in inches - SN#
(just use all the exact data from your approved Form 1/4)

Block 5 I put "personal vacation" because I was going to Front Site on vacation

Does the 5320.20 still go to the W. VA address??

I haven't flown with NFA yet, but I've flown several times with my semi-auto ARs/pistols.

The one and only tip I have to add is that before leaving for the airport I remove the upper receiver of my AR from the lower and set them down facing opposite of each other, remove the slide from glock, etc (perform a partial field strip) before placing them in the locked hard case.

You sail right through the check in process because it's obviously unloaded to even the most brain-dead airline employee.  Once the TSA guys have inspected your firearms, the tag is inside your case, and the locks are back on, I place the whole kit and kaboodle inside an oversized duffle bag I purchased at REI.  I then place a padlock on the duffle bag and it suddenly becomes MUCH more discreet and just looks like an huge/oversized bag to as opposed to a locked hard case that looks like it holds something valuable.

OST

I worked for a major American Airline for a few years, we never tagged the outside of the case. If we unloaded what was obviously a gun case or a bow case we were told to take it to the baggage office. To pick it up they checked your ID. When I fly, I'm always happy that they check. I dont want some yahoo walking off with my toys!!

Originally Posted By prebans: 6.  Have hard copies of the airline's own policies and FAA regs at the ready for any ticketing agents who don't know what they're doing. Federal law requires you to declare that you are transporting a firearm and to demonstrate that it is unloaded.  Forget curb side check-in; you'll be doing this the old-fashioned way.  Go to the ticketing agent and say "I have a firearm to declare."  They'll give you a tag to sign that says (among other things) that the firearm(s) is/are unloaded.  This tag goes inside the case with the firearm(s)!  It used to be law that these tags went on the outside of the case- they were known as "steal-me tags" within the airline industry for a reason!  Should the ticketing agent attempt to place the tag on the outside, politely explain that they go inside.  If they object, demand a supervisor.  They are not only placing your firearms in jeopardy, but they're also violating federal law.  Remember that the case with the gun(s) must be locked-- don't go anywhere until after security clears the case.  They WILL break the locks off if you're not around, and an unlocked case doesn't fly. In t

TSA regulations also requires them to open the locked (declared) box in your presence. IF they dont they are also violating their own regulations on this too.

If you land and find your lock on the gun box has been cut, report it to TSA.



Good info in this thread. It should be a sticky.

Originally Posted By tReznr: I haven't flown with NFA yet, but I've flown several times with my semi-auto ARs/pistols. The one and only tip I have to add is that before leaving for the airport I remove the upper receiver of my AR from the lower and set them down facing opposite of each other, remove the slide from glock, etc (perform a partial field strip) before placing them in the locked hard case. You sail right through the check in process because it's obviously unloaded to even the most brain-dead airline employee.  Once the TSA guys have inspected your firearms, the tag is inside your case, and the locks are back on, I place the whole kit and kaboodle inside an oversized duffle bag I purchased at REI.  I then place a padlock on the duffle bag and it suddenly becomes MUCH more discreet and just looks like an huge/oversized bag to as opposed to a locked hard case that looks like it holds something valuable.

Great idea here.  I think most airlines approve this from what I've been reading.  I'm going to fly to Vegas this year and will have to check my offduty gun.  I'll be transporting it in this manor if it's acceptable to the airline.

When you land, obtain your luggage ( since I've never declared baggage before ) do you simply grab your gun bag and leave or do they need to fondle your gun again??

Originally Posted By ROMAD-556: In Vegas I locked the case with TSA locks and then zip tied the other locking locations and TSA in Vegas had no issues with that.

Are you talking about those bright orange things? I was told never to use these because every tom dick and harry who's loading baggage can open these locks.  As I said In another post, according to TSA, nobody, is authorized to open a declared and secured gun case without the owner ( you ) present.  

Maybe something has changed but, in my opinion use a lock only you have the key or combination to since they have no need to open the gun case after it's been declared.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm


We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.

I have never traveled with a NFA weapon but I have traveled with a few long guns. Do NOT use a TSA approved locked. Those are able to be opened by the TSA. I don't want to have anyone but me to be able to open the case and that breaks FFA title 49 § 1544.203   Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.
ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ca8e98bee9f342fd78d92cbedeffaf98&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.11&idno=49#49:9.1.3.5.11.3.10.3

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: (1) Any loaded firearm(s). (2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— (i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded; (ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; (iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and (iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment,. (3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary. (g) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.

The TSA site has WRONG info. Make sure you look at the FAA's web site.

No flying with NFA toys yet, but I am counting the days until my stamp arrives :)

I frequently travel with both my ccw and a shotgun in a big aluminum case. When traveling only with the pistol, I put it in a small locked case in my suitcase.  Probably 50% of the time, the big aluminum gun case does not come off of the luggage carousel. Sometimes they call my name to come to the baggage claim office, sometimes they don't.  I freaked out the first couple of times it didn't come out with the other luggage, but one nice lady explained the same thing that a previous poster mentioned...if they have any clue it might be a firearm, the do not put it on the carousel.

Check-in procedures differ not only airport to airport, but by different carriers at the same airport. I have also seen procedures change from the time I left until I came back a week later.  Never any real problems, but a couple of mild headaches.  Occasionally a gate agent will get a little nervous, but for the most part they just un-impressed.  Never ran into a rude TSA agent, but I have found many that were clueless.  In my experience, local cops stationed at an airport are more likely to be a problem.

Just to add, I always mark my case with my name and phone number so they can get a hold of me if there is an issue.  Dont put TSA locks on the firearms cases.

Putting your name and number on the outside sounds like a good idea.  

Question, what locks are acceptable when transporting a firearm on the airlines?  Will any old padlock work?  Are multiple locks required?  

Thanks.

The thread is most informative, thank you all for the stories, advise and facts, it makes this BS they make us jump through a great deal more clear.

I do that to.  If they can see w/ the XRay that the chamber is clear & that ammo is well secured they shouldn't want to open the case.  

Had a bitch, english, tell me I couldn't check gun & ammo, even if the ammo wastn't in the case.

Ammo was in the case in magazines, like it always it when I fly.  Gov reg is that you CAN carry ammo in the locked case w/ the gun.  She said, "you can't put the ammo w/ the gun b/c if you do & someone steals it they could go on a killing spree"

I told her she was wrong, she told me it was airline policy, i told here to show me in writing.  She printed it out & right there it said that I can put ammon in the case w/ the gun.

BUT, it also said that AA policy is that ammo in "mags or clips" is not acceptable.  Of all the major airlines only AA has this line item.   Its bullshit.  I could throw a un-taped cardboard box in a loose peice of luggage but I can't keep it in a magazine in a mag holster in a hard sided foam lined locked case.  

TSA doesnt' insist the the ammo be in boxes as long as the top round in the mag is covered to something can't hit the primer. So if you have the mag in a mag holster or a velcro pouch or something it is acceptable unless the airline is more stringent about it.

So she rejected me from the flight for that reason.  

Lessons learned:
-even though 90% of the time you won't have to unload your mags, always bring boxes w/ you so you can unload your mags in case the agent is a douche, but leave them loaded if you can.  

-bring print ouf of TSA guidlines for traveling w/ fireams & the airlines print out of the same so you can point to where it says ammo can be in the case or bag w/ the gun.

-remember that your objective is to get on the flight in time, not educate weapon fearing immature.  Its an emotional disorder more than a lack of knowledge & you can't fix stupid, you can only hope to out breed them.