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Posted: 2/17/2006 7:04:51 PM EDT
I'm thinking of putting together a side charging, SBR'ed suppresed AR upper.

The upper will be going on my Bushmaster lower.

I want get as short a barrel as I can without sacrificing proper function/cycling and too much accuracy (to 100-200m).

I want it to have a shrouded appearance. I have a Troy MRFC handguard waiting for a home.


Questions:
1.) Who sells short barrels that would end behind the handguards?
2.) Who makes the best side charging upper? I'm thinking Ameetecflattop, but I don't know for sure.
3.) Can this set-up be made with an integral suppression system? If so who makes them in .223?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 11:39:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:39:13 PM EDT
I'm planning on doing the same thing except using an AR 9mm SBR platform. You can probably have an AR barrel shortened and threaded here, TROS USA. You could buy a screw on suppressor which screws to the barrel inside the handguard which gives the appearance of an integral suppressor. I am interested in the Ameetec upper but can't find anyone who has actually built an AR with it.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:29:09 PM EDT
I've seen plenty of 9mm SBR'ed AR's. I would go with the LMT if I were going to go the pistol caliber route.

I'm a little concerned with going to short with a .223 AR. I read in some other thread that anything shorter than 16" will not allow the powder in the casing to burn completely before the round leaves the barrel... or something like that.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:26:44 AM EDT
Any reason NOT to go shorter than 10" on a .223 that you plan on suppressing?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:29:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Any reason NOT to go shorter than 10" on a .223 that you plan on suppressing?



Yes, they rarely work when they are that short.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:00:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Any reason NOT to go shorter than 10" on a .223 that you plan on suppressing?



Yes, they rarely work when they are that short.



What about the Bushmaster AR pistols? How are those different?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:03:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 11:06:38 AM EDT by osprey21]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Any reason NOT to go shorter than 10" on a .223 that you plan on suppressing?


I don't think most manufacturers, if any, will warranty their cans on barrels that short.

The exception may be with Klos' XXX, which is somewhat overbored.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:03:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:18:00 AM EDT
So what's the minimum length barrel you should go with for a suppressed set-up?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:29:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:47:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
So what's the minimum length barrel you should go with for a suppressed set-up?



11" is recommended



I see. Any idea what the max effective range is on a 10.5 "or 11" barrel?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:52:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 11:55:39 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 12:01:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Its a SBR, I wouldnt want to have to shoot anything more than 25yds away. If "max effective range" is in your mission requirements, I suggest you bring along a couple buddies armed with something bigger. Is this being issued on a Form 5?

I can make a 10" metal plate go clang at 250yds with this 11".
www.adcofirearms.com/acc/acimages/DSC04650.JPG



No mission requirement... just killing zombies and paper.
I have a 16" HBAR upper that I would swap in if I needed anything more accurate (and less quiet).
Hey, hitting a 10" plate at 250yards isn't anything to scoff at, is it?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 12:05:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 1:55:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Dont confuse things, barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy

Doesn't it? Accuracy to a certain range... doesn't it?
Or is it consistent enough at it's max point target range that you can be accurate as long as you don't try to exceed that range/distance?


Also, dont expect much "quiet" from a suppressed 11" barrel. They are definitely suppressed, but no where near as quiet as when you put the same can on a 16" barrel.

Could you get into that some more. I would have figured it would work the same as going from a supressed Beretta handgun to a Beretta carbine... the barrel is longer so it allows more build up of pressure and puts more spin on the bullet.... doesn't it?

No necessarily the reason I want a shorter barrel... just would like to keep the overall length down... and get shorter handguards that'll "shroud" the suppressor.





Link Posted: 2/21/2006 3:56:37 PM EDT
barrel length buys you more velocity not nessarly accuracy, shorter barrels are usually more accurate due to being stiffer/less harmonics.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:02:31 PM EDT
pathfinder74

Let's see if we can hit on a few things you are asking about... First as to the accuracy potential of a firearm and the length of the barrel -- in all honesty, most of what a barrel does, is done withing the first few inches, the stability and spin are well established within inches -- if you think about it, with a 1:7 twist barrel, the bullet has already been spun one full turn at 7" and will certainly not benfit from anymore than that.

The only thing that is gained after the first half a foot or so is velocity... the military testing concluded that 18" is the shortest a barrel can be cut and still maintain *near* maximum potential for velocity. This is based on the efficency of the barrel to allow the charge to burn, under 18" the loss is exponential and performace degrades quickly... The M4, at 14.5 is a trade off of handling and length (important in the current urban and vehicle borne fighting), but many say it is as short as one would ever want to go for a rifle/carbine.

The CQB type weapons are naturally shorter, but keep in mind that we are dealing with confines that place people well withing what we like to call "the range of normal social intercourse" -- Sure, they work a football field away, but that is not what they are designed for and certainly second place in that catagory... again, it is a trade off, the lessor of two evils. When you are in a space that you literally can not let another person get past you, you have to make concessions for certain things.

Reliability of the short barreled guns is pretty good at about a foot of barrel or a little less, but below that is starts to suck as bad as MTV... Pressures and timing are way out of whack and with the port located closer than about 7" (for the 5.56/223) we are not even really talking gas at this point, the efficiency of a barrel this short is a joke and the life of a suppressor would be drastically short, not to mention that you would have to use a pretty good size can to make the weapon tolerable at all -- a lot of people fail to realize this, they want a 10 inch barrel, but have to hang 7" of suppressor off the front to tame it down, when they could have went with a 14.5 and a much smaller can to get a lighter AND shorter setup than the 10" barrel.

The deal is that the 5.56/223 was not built to use in uber quiet, room to room stalks... it can be made acceptable, but not what it was made for -- I have a 300 Whisper that is really nice for this, as well as a couple of other toys my Uncle uses... one of them, all you can hear is the firing pin snap! Marty at Tepo Jutsu sent me a 338 Spectre barrel recently, if I ever get enough time to get it set up, I am sure this will be a very quite little rig too!

There is no way to compare a pistol caliber carbine to the 223, this is apples and handgrenades... but I would suggest, if you want what it sounds like you want, to talk to JD Jones, Steve at ADCO, Randall at ar15barrels or Marty at TJ about getting a short, suppressed gun in a round that is designed for that purpose... the Whipser is balls accurate and hits harder at 100 yards than a 45 ACP does at the muzzle...
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:26:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:48:14 PM EDT
Steve...

The gun I mentioned is one of only a few made, the first time I shot it... all I heard was click, the firing pin drop, but nothing! I thought "shit, this thing did'nt even fire"... pulled the bolt back and an empty, smoking cartridge case hit the bench...

Oh yes, that is all a fat boy needs to be happy
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:16:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 6:18:36 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:05:25 AM EDT
Wow... thanks gunzilla and bigbore... you guys pretty well put my dillusions to rest on the idea of making a short suppressed .223 AR to rest. Sounds like there's no good way to accomplish it and I should pretty much accept the fact that it's going to need to b long if I want it to be quiet.

Good info guys... thanks a million. seriously.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:00:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 9:38:33 AM EDT by kbi]
Originally posted by bigbore:



Bigbore are the details on the upper you have pictured.

Nice toy though
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:11:19 PM EDT
thanks for the thread, once i get my current crap done i was going to do this to a 9mm AR.!! thanks for the info...
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