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Posted: 3/29/2006 12:55:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 12:59:22 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]
Is it worth the purchase? Are they hard to clean/find cleaning stuff for? What about the 8mm ammo?

What kind of maintenance should I expect from a bolt action rifle this old?

www.mitchellsales.com/rifles/hist_m48/index.htm

I have an AR15 and 10/22, and might make this my next rifle as I have always loved German WWII weapons.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:00:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:07:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:08:22 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
I would never buy a Mitchell's Mauser. Russian captured k98's can be had for $150.

I love shooting my K98. I restored one from 1939 last year. It is dead accurate through the irons at 100yds. They are easy to clean. Only thing to be concerned about is that the majority of surplus 8mm ammo is corrosive. Not a big deal, just clean bore and bolt with hot boiling water before cleaning normally.



Where are some other places to buy them then? What about condition?

I have shot one before, and I gotta admit, I love shooting it as much as my AR.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:12:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:21:54 PM EDT
Go to a newsstand or bookstore and get a copy of Shotgun News.
Their are normally several picture ads for Yugo M48 Mausers and
Russian capture K98's.

Ammo is dirt cheap and plentiful, and the guns are alot of fun to shoot.
My Yugo M48 is a real tackdriver with new factory Federal ammo, and shoots about
3MOA with 50 year old surplus ammo.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:00:19 PM EDT
They are M48's which are available for under half what Mitchells wants for them.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:20:48 PM EDT
Holy cow! $1k for a M48?! I don't care what condition that is, that is ridiculous. I forget which vendor it was (it was one of the upper ones in the tacked thread) but they had a SS K98 with no capture or import marks, all original marks (including the swastikas), with the Deathshead (and possibly matching numbers, though I think that might have been a seperate rifle) for $1,500. That is the only C&R that I considered paying over $1,000 for and that was only because of its rarity. Something like a M48, you could probably find one for under $100 if you really looked hard enough.

unless of course you are made from money, in which case I have a Remington 1903 that I am selling for $900, I'll even pay for shipping.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:46:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Here's some: www.centuryarms.com/store/index.php?cPath=23&page=3

You can only see prices if you have a license on file with them. Looks like they range from $160 up.



Why is that? I don't need a C&R license or anything like that to own one do I?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:47:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Holy cow! $1k for a M48?! I don't care what condition that is, that is ridiculous. I forget which vendor it was (it was one of the upper ones in the tacked thread) but they had a SS K98 with no capture or import marks, all original marks (including the swastikas), with the Deathshead (and possibly matching numbers, though I think that might have been a seperate rifle) for $1,500. That is the only C&R that I considered paying over $1,000 for and that was only because of its rarity. Something like a M48, you could probably find one for under $100 if you really looked hard enough.

unless of course you are made from money, in which case I have a Remington 1903 that I am selling for $900, I'll even pay for shipping.



What's the difference between an M48 and the original Mauser K98?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 6:16:31 PM EDT by NeoWeird]
As I understand it, when the Germans surrendered they were required to surrender their arms as well, at which point they were taken and inventoried, stored, etc. They were reworked into the M48, at which point most Nazi markings, especially any swastika proof mark, was removed or stamped over to remove it. So of the millions of k98s that were made, only a very small percentage were left completely intact (most from GI bring backs, or imports that escaped import marks, etc). If you look at places like Gunbroker you will see many k98s that they claim have many of the Waffen marks, but 99% of them will not have a single Swastika, instead you will see odd shapped X marks in random places, but the eagle is there. These are good examples of how the Swastika was so adamanently removed from the rifle, and some of these will be even marked further more by importers (Century is almost in a category of it's own with their electric pencil import marks). Also, as with all firearms, the k98 was issued to several troops, branches, etc and ones that went to the SS got the SS rune stamped into them. The SS as many people know were specially selected soldiers that wer considered the elite of the Nazi military. A special additional marking was given to the rifles that were used by the SS stationed in the concentration camps: the Death's Head. So as you can imagine, the rarity and historical value of these rifles alone makes them quite collectible, but on top of that to find one that was correct, matching, and still with all original markings is quite a piece of history. So if something like that can be had for $1.5k, then you can imagine how ridiculous it is to pay $1k for some random rifle, that may not have even been issued during the war, that has had most of it's historical value in reagards to the Third Reiche removed, and has been reworked from factory condition.

VISUALS:

the SS logo:


the Totenkopf (Death's Head)


I would also like to say that this is how I understand the markings in my very limited knowledge of them and I could easily be wrong. WWII rifles are the reason I got my C&R, and the k98 was and still is at the top of my list of things to get (once I can find one in a condition I like), and in the short time that I have looked into them, this is what I have gathered about them. So if I am wrong, please someone correct me, both for the topic author and myself.

ETA: Damn it, now that I went through all that, I am kicking myself again for not getting that k98 back then. Watch, in like an hour I will go on a mad hunt for it and buy it, even though I don't have the money for it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:16:32 PM EDT
Awesome. Thanks for the info.

So it wouldn't be incorrect for me to call the M48 a K98, although technically it's just a reworked version?

What exactly is a C&R license? At what point do you need it? I can buy an M48 and just have it shipped to an FFL can't I?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 6:24:32 PM EDT by NeoWeird]
A C&R license is a license, just like an FFL, that is pretty much issued to anyone who applies and can also own firearms. It gives the holder the power to 'collect' but not enter into 'business' with it. It allows for firearms that meet the criteria of C&R (which one qualifier is being 50+ years old, so WWII firearms are good to go) to be shipped directly to the holder, without having to go through a FFL. So you can buy 30 rifles from a dealer, and instead of paying any fees at your FFL, they go straight to your doorstep. If you like C&Rs it would be very worth while to pay the $30 to get it. On top of that, most retailers, like Brownells and Midway, recognize C&R FFLs as normal FFLs and give them the same dealer discounts your FFL gets. Many people save more than the $30 C&R charge on their first purchase from such retailers making a C&R even more worth while.

Calling an M48 a k98 is kind of iffy, even more so in my book. It would be like taking a Picaso patining, smearing your own work on it and calling it a Picaso. Yes, it is essentially a Picaso underneath it all, and it may still be art, but most (including me) would argue that it was NOT a Picaso but rather some bastarized reject. M48s are of the same quality, but in general a k98 is more collectible and gets a better price. In many cases it may not be much, sometimes as little as like $20, but in some cases it is far more (like the example I gave before).
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:04:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 7:06:08 PM EDT by M4A1OwnsYou]

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
A C&R license is a license, just like an FFL, that is pretty much issued to anyone who applies and can also own firearms. It gives the holder the power to 'collect' but not enter into 'business' with it. It allows for firearms that meet the criteria of C&R (which one qualifier is being 50+ years old, so WWII firearms are good to go) to be shipped directly to the holder, without having to go through a FFL. So you can buy 30 rifles from a dealer, and instead of paying any fees at your FFL, they go straight to your doorstep. If you like C&Rs it would be very worth while to pay the $30 to get it. On top of that, most retailers, like Brownells and Midway, recognize C&R FFLs as normal FFLs and give them the same dealer discounts your FFL gets. Many people save more than the $30 C&R charge on their first purchase from such retailers making a C&R even more worth while.

Calling an M48 a k98 is kind of iffy, even more so in my book. It would be like taking a Picaso patining, smearing your own work on it and calling it a Picaso. Yes, it is essentially a Picaso underneath it all, and it may still be art, but most (including me) would argue that it was NOT a Picaso but rather some bastarized reject. M48s are of the same quality, but in general a k98 is more collectible and gets a better price. In many cases it may not be much, sometimes as little as like $20, but in some cases it is far more (like the example I gave before).



Thanks, you've been a great help.

I might have to look into that C&R sometime. Must be nice having them shipped directly to your doorstep. I LOVE WWII weaponry.

For now though, I'm just gonna stick with the M48 and pay the $25 fee. I just need to find one in good shape.

ETA - Is it correct to call it a Mauser?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:25:01 PM EDT
Yes, it's still a Mauser.

Think of it like a Vietnam era M16 that someone bought and converted to be a semi-auto M4. It would be silly to call it an M16, even though it was one at one point in time. While the k98 to M48 conversions weren't as drastic as that, it gives you an idea.

Also, look at the top of this forum for information on how to get your C&R. If you are willing to wait the time to get your C&R (usually around 6 weeks or so) you could use the $25 to get your C&R and save enough money to buy it direct from an importer/retailer that it would be cheaper that way. Of course some people like to be able to hold their firearms before they buy them, but still, can't beat cheap.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:31:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
Yes, it's still a Mauser.

Think of it like a Vietnam era M16 that someone bought and converted to be a semi-auto M4. It would be silly to call it an M16, even though it was one at one point in time. While the k98 to M48 conversions weren't as drastic as that, it gives you an idea.

Also, look at the top of this forum for information on how to get your C&R. If you are willing to wait the time to get your C&R (usually around 6 weeks or so) you could use the $25 to get your C&R and save enough money to buy it direct from an importer/retailer that it would be cheaper that way. Of course some people like to be able to hold their firearms before they buy them, but still, can't beat cheap.



Is there an age requirement? I'm just a 19 y/o with a strange obsession of firearms and WWII.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:06:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Is there an age requirement? I'm just a 19 y/o with a strange obsession of firearms and WWII.



Unfortunately there is. You have to be 21, since you can buy handguns with it as well as longguns. At least now you know, so you can apply on your 21st like I, and many others, did.

Welcome to the world of C&Rs.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:13:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Is there an age requirement? I'm just a 19 y/o with a strange obsession of firearms and WWII.



Unfortunately there is. You have to be 21, since you can buy handguns with it as well as longguns. At least now you know, so you can apply on your 21st like I, and many others, did.

Welcome to the world of C&Rs.



I'll definitely keep that in the back of my head. :) I really appreciate your time and all the explanations.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:29:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:31:06 PM EDT by skywarp989]

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
As I understand it, when the Germans surrendered they were required to surrender their arms as well, at which point they were taken and inventoried, stored, etc. They were reworked into the M48, at which point most Nazi markings, especially any swastika proof mark, was removed or stamped over to remove it. So of the millions of k98s that were made, only a very small percentage were left completely intact (most from GI bring backs, or imports that escaped import marks, etc). If you look at places like Gunbroker you will see many k98s that they claim have many of the Waffen marks, but 99% of them will not have a single Swastika, instead you will see odd shapped X marks in random places, but the eagle is there.



Sorry, this is a little off. The M48 rifle in the Mitchell's ad above never was a German weapon. It is a Yugoslavian-made model 1948 Mauser, probably made in the early 1950s. It is an intermediate-length large-ring Mauser 98 action and is not compatible with true k98 parts. They are not WWII-era rifles, though some saw action in the more recent Balkan conflicts (often fitted with sporter or Z-rak scopes as sniper rifles). M48s are great rifles that shoot well given they're in good shape, and are worth between $125-150 depending on condition. Mitchell's uses highly questionable advertising methods.

The reason this is confusing is because the Yugos DID rework many k98s as you describe. Furthermore, they often marked them "M98/48" on the siderail. But those are still true k98 rifles, just with mixed parts, scrubbed markings, and sometimes new stocks or barrels. But they are know as "Yugo capture k98s" or YC k98s. They are much like the Russian Captured k98s (though in both cases actual battlefield capture history is probably the exception, rather than the rule).

Hope that clears things up for you a little.

ETA: M4A1Owns: your interest in weapons is not strange. It is normal. Spend some time learning the history behind these old warhorses and you'll be hooked for life.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:35:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skywarp989:

Originally Posted By NeoWeird:
As I understand it, when the Germans surrendered they were required to surrender their arms as well, at which point they were taken and inventoried, stored, etc. They were reworked into the M48, at which point most Nazi markings, especially any swastika proof mark, was removed or stamped over to remove it. So of the millions of k98s that were made, only a very small percentage were left completely intact (most from GI bring backs, or imports that escaped import marks, etc). If you look at places like Gunbroker you will see many k98s that they claim have many of the Waffen marks, but 99% of them will not have a single Swastika, instead you will see odd shapped X marks in random places, but the eagle is there.



Sorry, this is a little off. The M48 rifle in the Mitchell's ad above never was a German weapon. It is a Yugoslavian-made model 1948 Mauser, probably made in the early 1950s. It is an intermediate-length large-ring Mauser 98 action and is not compatible with true k98 parts. They are not WWII-era rifles, though some saw action in the more recent Balkan conflicts (often fitted with sporter or Z-rak scopes as sniper rifles). M48s are great rifles that shoot well given they're in good shape, and are worth between $125-150 depending on condition. Mitchell's uses highly questionable advertising methods.

The reason this is confusing is because the Yugos DID rework many k98s as you describe. Furthermore, they often marked them "M98/48" on the siderail. But those are still true k98 rifles, just with mixed parts, scrubbed markings, and sometimes new stocks or barrels. But they are know as "Yugo capture k98s" or YC k98s. They are much like the Russian Captured k98s (though in both cases actual battlefield capture history is probably the exception, rather than the rule).

Hope that clears things up for you a little.

ETA: M4A1Owns: your interest in weapons is not strange. It is normal. Spend some time learning the history behind these old warhorses and you'll be hooked for life.



Haha yeah, I'm an AR guy, and I thought all the manufacturers and combinations was confusing at first, but this takes it to another level lol

I'll check back here before I make any purchases, but if you guys see something in nice condition for a good price, please let me know by IMing me or sending me an email at chris47@bellsouth.net

I want something as closely resembling a K98 as possible.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:39:12 AM EDT
The M48 is not a reworked war captured Mauser. These were made starting in 1948 on German equipment in Yugoslavia. I think they were made up until 1954 or so.It is not a 98k that was captured, reworked at an arsenal and then stored. The Mitchell Mausers are essentially new rifles and shoot pretty good. They are definitely on the high side ofe the price range. These are not sporting rifles and for most military weapons a MOA of 3 is considered very good.

There is also the 24/47 Yogoslavian Mauser. These were originally made my FN in Belgium starting in 1924 and reworked in 1947 after WWII. Hence the 24/47 designation. These rifles also use the same intermediate length receiver as the 48A above.. It is about 1/4" shorter than a standard Mauser action so you have to be careful about parts for the bolt.

On top of this there are also genuine German Mausers reworked in Yugoslavia. These rifle will have the original Mod 98 stamped on the side or the receiver. The Serbs were pretty meticulous about removing any NAZI Germany stampings from these rifles.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 12:12:36 PM EDT
M48 and K98 also have some different features

The top handguard on an M48 comes all the way back around rear sight
K98 handguard stops at the site.

M48 has slot in stock for sling
K98 has take down disk for bolt disassembly.

I'm sure there are other differences, but not sure what they are as of this time

I have learned all this in the last few days as I have a mighty strong hankering for a K98 rifle.

Damn gun obsession.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:13:46 AM EDT
The action size is different between an M48 and a K98. The stocks won't even fit between the two. An M48 is NOT a K98! They are both fun rifles and can be had for a lot cheaper than what Mitchels rapes..err...sells them for.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:44:03 AM EDT
Since they are not built to K98 specs, I wonder if they were built on German equipment. The action length is standard FN. There may have been German machinery used on something, but I suspect that Belgian equipment played a significant role. The Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes bought many M24 FN Mausers starting in the 1920's. They also purchased VZ 24's from the Czechs.

The Mitchell's story is pure unadulterated bunk. Most of these rifles were made in the 50's and Mausers are still made in the Balkans to this day....i.e. the tanker models (which never had anything to do with tanks).

Mitchell's would lie even if the truth sounded better.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:07:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:13:16 PM EDT by FMichael]
My M48 by Mitchell Mauser is "like new"....Paid $280 for it while on sale @ the local Dunhams sporting goods store, but had to cough-up an extra $150 to get everything re-blued 'cause I got nutz & used a little bit of paint thinner to get that damn dried-on cosmoline off the metal ho.....IMHO if there's any gun show nearby; a few vendors may have them; remember you get what ya pay for!


On a side note; by 1944 the quality of most K98's started to suffer; ya know the day/night bombings; Ruskies from the east & free-world from the west .....At least these M48's are of solid build & little to no worries of any major malfunctions while @ the range!
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:44:50 PM EDT
Shot my friend's Mitchell's M48 today at the range. The finish on it is beautiful. Looks like a brand spankin new rifle, and shoots very nicely.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:08:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4A1OwnsYou:
Shot my friend's Mitchell's M48 today at the range. The finish on it is beautiful. Looks like a brand spankin new rifle, and shoots very nicely.


And it's not a re-built/re-badged German K98 like some here think! These were/are brand new rifles produced in the late 40's/early 50's in Croatia (if I remember correctly) with German tool/die/equipment left behind. They're great shooters with a solid action.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:43:50 PM EDT
I got an M48A two weekends ago, my first Mauser. All numbers match, including the stock's. The only German K98 I'd be interested in is a full dress unaltered one, and I wouldn't shoot it. The M48A is for shooting. I may buy another just to have a second.

GL


Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:53:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLogic:
I got an M48A two weekends ago, my first Mauser. All numbers match, including the stock's. The only German K98 I'd be interested in is a full dress unaltered one, and I wouldn't shoot it. The M48A is for shooting. I may buy another just to have a second.

GL

i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/ZBlack/800x600/DSCF3007b.jpg



Where did you buy that from?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:11:46 PM EDT
I got it at a gunshow for $200. It was their only one. Another table had four priced for less but they looked a lot worse than this one. The one seller that is at all the shows and sells C&R guns didn't have any Mausers at all.

GL
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:28:12 AM EDT
The FN designed and built intermediate length 98 style(but not 98 length..big difference) action Modell 1924 were purchased by the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, 1918-1929, from FN along with the machinery to built the rifle. After WWII, beginning in 1947, the Modell 1924 was rebuilt and reworked. Therefore, the 24/47.

The M48, M48a, etc, are simply a modified Belgian-designed Modell 1924. They already had the machinery and established production methods, so why change it a lot?

The Yugo 24/52 are rebuilt Czech VZ-24's and possible VZ98/22's.

The Germans did not move machinery into Yugo during the war and there wasn't anything to move after the war.

The Mitchell's Mausers were built on FN machinery.

Mitchell's Mausers is bald-face in their lies and distortions.
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