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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:18:49 AM EDT
Anyone collect or shoot these fine rifles. It's the only WW1/2 era U.S./British rifle I don't own. I've wanted one for years but they are rare in my area and I'm poor, lol. For a long time I would be lucky if I saw one between 5 guns shows in my regional area.. but lately I'm seen three to five at the last couple of guns shows I've attended. They are usually priced $450-$500.. I think this rifle has a rich and interesting history, often overlooked. As some may know more doughboys carried the 1917 in WW1 then the 03, Alvin York himself performed his heroics with the 1917 despite what the made would have you believe. I will get one at the next show if I can get the funds together and God willing. I wonder why there seems to be an upsurge in this models availability of late, perhaps some arsenal has cleared them out. I don't believe CMP has ever carried the 1917 correct? I know the basics about these models but any information you could give me would be much appreciated. Should I purchase one manufactured be Eddystone, Winchester or Remington. Should I get the pattern 14 first since they seem to be more rare? Thanks for all your help.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
As some may know more doughboys carried the 1917 in WW1 then the 03, Alvin York himself performed his heroics with the 1917 despite what the made would have you believe.



This has since changed. It has come to light very recently in an interview the American Rifleman gave to York's son that he in fact carried out the exploits that got him the Medal of Honor with a 1903. York's son shows in his father's diary where he stated that he carried all of this out with a 1903 and one would have to believe that York did know the difference between the two.

FYI.




I don't believe CMP has ever carried the 1917 correct?


No, not correct. The CMP and previously the DCM did in fact sell some 1917's. There were not a whole lot, but they have sold them over the years.



I know the basics about these models but any information you could give me would be much appreciated. Should I purchase one manufactured be Eddystone, Winchester or Remington. Should I get the pattern 14 first since they seem to be more rare? Thanks for all your help.


The most common ones I have seen are made by Eddystone which was in fact owned by Remington. Popular myth had it that some of the Eddystones were improperly heat treated and would crack, I think that has since been pretty much disproven. I have yet to see a bad Eddystone.

As far as collectability, all things being equal, the Winchesters tend to bring the better prices.

1917's are in .30-'06 and Pattern 14's are in .303 British, FYI.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:03:22 PM EDT
I have a Pattern 14 that my Grandfather bought for $5 after WWII at a government auction. He actually bought 5 of them and gave one to each of his brothers also. It is a great rifle. Shiny bore, pretty nice wood, and heavy as hell. Oh I also have the bayonet for it and the complete rifle/bayonet stands almost as tall as me.
Great shooter! Still works like brand new.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:56:04 PM EDT
They are very nice rifles and to me are nicer to shoot than the 03's. The last time I saw some at the CMP was back in early 2005. Most they had were in good shape, but they only had a few.

I have two myself one in good shape and another in very good+ shape. I can remember when you could get a 1914 model for under a hundred bucks back in the 80's. The 1914 model in .303 is a rare bird these days.

I will be selling my good condition 1917 Remy in the near future as room is an issue.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:10:28 PM EDT
These are the "sleepers". They are excellent shooting rifles, VERY accurate, parts are cheap, whole rifles are cheap. They are the best kept secrets of collectable US infantry rifles. Since 1903, A3, garand and carbines are going through the roof, its only a matter of time before these great rifles follow.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:45:42 PM EDT
Great rifles. No conclusive proof either way what rifle Sgt. York used, some recent research likes to say 1903, but ninety years of accepted history isn't changed by a little recent research.I'm stickin' with 1917.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:58:16 PM EDT
My grandfather actually used the 1917 during WWII. It has been on my "buy" list for a while, but I haven't picked one up yet.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:32:29 PM EDT
Here's some stuff that was posted on Jouster.com a few months back...


In WW2 Rock Island Arsenal was tasked to rebuild firearms of all kinds and in that list I found this information.

Rock Island rebuilt M-1917 rifles the qty's are as follows.

a) May 42---------2
b) Sept 42 ---1,130
c) Oct 42 ----6,130
d) Nov 42 ----9,810
e) Dec 42 ----1,590
f) Jan 43 -------56
g) Feb 43 ------400
h) Mar 43 ----2,450
i) Apr 43 ----1,596
j) May 43 ----2,290
k) June43 ----1,190
l) July43 ------200
m) Aug 43 ------990
n) Oct 43 ------110
o) Jan-1 44 to Aug-15 45 =24,131

Eddystone manufactured over and above rifle production 1,352,862 spare parts enough to make if assembled 137,000 rifles.

P-14 cost to the British $42.00
M-1917 cost to the USA $26.00

In 1920 Springfield armory cleaned and repaired 481,760 M-1917 rifles for storage

In 1935 General MacArthur asked the department of defense for 25,000 rifles complete with bayonets, scabbards, cleaning kits the cost billed to the Philippine government was $16.65 each.

On July 6th 1936 he requested another sale of 50,000 rifles less kit and bayonets. This price was reduced to $9.05 each rifle.

Shortly thereafter another 25,000 were sold to the Philippines--Philippine numbers are in general qty's.

Of course we know England received approx 1,000,000 M-1917 rifles.

On September 8th 1942 the war department ordered 137,000 barrels from two sub-contractors to allow M-1917 rifles to be rebuilt and to allow servicing of rifles in service. (High Standard and Johnson Automatics)

USA use of the M-1917 rifle in World War two was as follows.
a) Zone of the interior----213,410
b) US Navy -----------------16,521
c) OSS -----------------54,030
d) Int aid --------------1,503,485
e) US Overseas Arm -which is the US Army in North Africa----------------14,855
f) Recorded official losses of the M-1917 rifle in the above -- 220,495 rifles officially written off as captured, lost, or destroyed.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:44:31 PM EDT
That is some good info Dracster!

As for the Philippine rifles, a number of those ended up back in U.S. hands when they were issued to the U.S. Army Air Corps when they were assigned to infantry duty on Bataan. But, the quantity would not have been large.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:28:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Great rifles. No conclusive proof either way what rifle Sgt. York used, some recent research likes to say 1903, but ninety years of accepted history isn't changed by a little recent research.I'm stickin' with 1917.




I would think the man's personal diaries would be conclusive enough.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:33:53 PM EDT
I picked this up at the last local show.





1917 Eddystone in armory wrap that was applied after rebuild.

I'd never seen one still in the wrap, so I scooped it up.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:16:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frostbite:
That is some good info Dracster!

As for the Philippine rifles, a number of those ended up back in U.S. hands when they were issued to the U.S. Army Air Corps when they were assigned to infantry duty on Bataan. But, the quantity would not have been large.



Most of the Phillippino guns ended up in the Japs inventory. They captured a shit load after the fall of Corregedor (sp?).
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:56:15 PM EDT


I love mine. Fantastic shooter.

My father has two, one like mine above, and one that he and my grandfather built into a hunting rifle using the walnut from a tree in their front yard. It is a fairly nice sporting rifle. It has a lot of sentimental value, because my dad, and my grandfather worked on it together, using a tree from my grandparents property.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:33:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 1:35:11 PM EDT by glazer1972]

Originally Posted By rebel_rifle:

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Great rifles. No conclusive proof either way what rifle Sgt. York used, some recent research likes to say 1903, but ninety years of accepted history isn't changed by a little recent research.I'm stickin' with 1917.




I would think the man's personal diaries would be conclusive enough.



If York stated in his personal diaries that he used an 'O3 then that is conclusive enough for me. I know he knew the difference, peep sight vs open sights, etc. and I know he wouldn't have lied about it. God-fearing man like him wouldn't have no need to lie or a desire to.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:21:15 PM EDT
Not to hijack, but where can I find a used stock for one of these at aside from gunbroker and ebay?

A buddy has one that has had the original stock cut down and would like to restore it to original form.


Thanks
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:13:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LArifleMAN:
Not to hijack, but where can I find a used stock for one of these at aside from gunbroker and ebay?

A buddy has one that has had the original stock cut down and would like to restore it to original form.


Thanks



gun shows
flea markets
gun shops
garage/yard sales
There was one for sale in the EE a couple months back.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:23:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LArifleMAN:
Not to hijack, but where can I find a used stock for one of these at aside from gunbroker and ebay?

A buddy has one that has had the original stock cut down and would like to restore it to original form.


Thanks



Ebay always has some
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:00:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LArifleMAN:
Not to hijack, but where can I find a used stock for one of these at aside from gunbroker and ebay?

A buddy has one that has had the original stock cut down and would like to restore it to original form.


Thanks



Here's a repro, if you don't have any luck finding an original or want a minty stock:

www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=726290A

Springfield Sporters had a ton of them a while back, might try them.

www.ssporters.com
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:32:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Great rifles. No conclusive proof either way what rifle Sgt. York used, some recent research likes to say 1903, but ninety years of accepted history isn't changed by a little recent research.I'm stickin' with 1917.




This has got me thinking. I always heard it was a 1917. I mean why would it have been said that Sgt. York used a 1917 if he had not? after all the 1903 was more popular and well known. you'd think if the 03 was the rifle he actually used then the 1917 would have never been credited. Also I've seen his grandson whose also in the army speak about it. He sais his grandpa used the 1917 durring the battle. his grandson said Sgt. York didn't care for the sights on the 1917 as well as the 03 but made do none the less. I'm just curious.. Doesn't the original after action report mention which firearm was used?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:27:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Great rifles. No conclusive proof either way what rifle Sgt. York used, some recent research likes to say 1903, but ninety years of accepted history isn't changed by a little recent research.I'm stickin' with 1917.




This has got me thinking. I always heard it was a 1917. I mean why would it have been said that Sgt. York used a 1917 if he had not? after all the 1903 was more popular and well known. you'd think if the 03 was the rifle he actually used then the 1917 would have never been credited. Also I've seen his grandson whose also in the army speak about it. He sais his grandpa used the 1917 durring the battle. his grandson said Sgt. York didn't care for the sights on the 1917 as well as the 03 but made do none the less. I'm just curious.. Doesn't the original after action report mention which firearm was used?



In recent interviews his sons said that he used an 03, and that he very well new the difference and preferred the 03 to the 1917. That is one of the main reasons for the ongoing controversy.
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