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Posted: 5/25/2003 9:18:41 AM EDT
I'm waiting for my C&R license and can't wait to start buying and building up some old rifles. I plan to make this a lifelong hobby: one that hopefully my son and daughter will enjoy doing as well.

As a first project I thought it would be nice to build up a rifle that could double as a hunting rifle.

The problem is I don't know if there even is a suitable rifle in the C&R class that I could go for.

Sure there are lots of calibers that would work fine but I wouldn't want to get a rifle that can't hit something at a distance for the obvious reasons.

So my question to you experts is, Which, if any C&R rifle could be built up and used as a suitable hunting rifle?

Thanks in advance for your advice.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 10:35:13 AM EDT
The Father of a friend of mine took a real nice whitetail a few years back with a 1903A3 in 30.06 ....

I have also seen people sighting in Mausers for deer season....

I am sur that there is a lot of suitable stuff out there....

t
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 10:37:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 3:04:50 PM EDT by Red-Leg]
There are many C&R rifles that make good deer rifles (though they tend to be heavy...not for hiking around the woods with). What kinds of distances do you usually take your shots at? Depending upon the answer to that question, you can tailor your needs to a longer rifle or a shorter, handier carbine.

Just about any Mosin-Nagant or Mauser will do a very nice job on deer-sized game. Both are in the .270 to .30 range as far as caliber goes and can be found very inexpensively.

One thing to keep in mind is that once you purchase a C&R, you are limited to what you can do with it as far as modifications go. C&Rs are supposed to be kept unmodified, therefore drilling and tapping a scope mount is pretty much out. However, if you can find a no-gunsmithing scope mount, you can certainly do that.

If you're really looking to sporterize your C&R, I'd recommend ordering from a wholesaler where you can get C&R pricing, but pay a local FFL for the transfer. That way, it doesn't have to go in your bound book and can be modified in any way you see fit.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 12:36:14 PM EDT
You can modify a C&R from your bound book anyway that you desire.

You just can't resell it as a C&R if it is no longer is in original military configuration.

Dennis Jenkins



Originally Posted By Red-Leg:
There are many C&R rifles that make good deer rifles (though they tend to be heavy...not for hiking around the woods with). What kinds of distances do you usually take your shots at? Depending upon the answer to that question, you can tailor your needs to a longer rifle or a shorter, handier carbine.

Just about any Mosin-Nagant or Mauser will do a very nice job on deer-sized game. Both are in the .270 range as far as caliber goes and can be found very inexpensively.

One thing to keep in mind is that once you purchase a C&R, you are limited to what you can do with it as far as modifications go. C&Rs are supposed to be kept unmodified, therefore drilling and tapping a scope mount is pretty much out. However, if you can find a no-gunsmithing scope mount, you can certainly do that.

If you're really looking to sporterize your C&R, I'd recommend ordering from a wholesaler where you can get C&R pricing, but pay a local FFL for the transfer. That way, it doesn't have to go in your bound book and can be modified in any way you see fit.

Good luck!

Link Posted: 5/25/2003 2:32:42 PM EDT
The last deer I shot (3-4 years ago) was with a box-stock, unaltered in any way Enfield No.4mk1. Didn't even have a scope on it.

I flipped the rear appeture up, bottomed it out, and held dead on. 165 yards. She dropped with one shot. I was using handloads with Sierra 180gr softpoints.

Then Springfield 03-a3 would work just as well but I much prefer the sights on the Enfield. I even have three 5 shot clips for my M1.

But it seems I never have time to go deer hunting anymore.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 3:04:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By djenkins:
You can modify a C&R from your bound book anyway that you desire.

You just can't resell it as a C&R if it is no longer is in original military configuration.

Dennis Jenkins





Ah...thanks for clearing that up for me Dennis.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 3:18:20 PM EDT
I'd go get a Yugo M48 Mauser. This is a shorter version of the K98 and weighs pretty much the same as an average Remington or Winchester. They are in 8mm which would be suitable for just about any animal in North America. The muzzle flash of a Mosin Nagant would probably set the forest on fire!
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 3:26:59 PM EDT
I should be figuring the C&R license out pretty soon since my second renewal is comming up next spring.<G>

Dennis Jenkins



Originally Posted By Red-Leg:

Originally Posted By djenkins:
You can modify a C&R from your bound book anyway that you desire.

You just can't resell it as a C&R if it is no longer is in original military configuration.

Dennis Jenkins





Ah...thanks for clearing that up for me Dennis.

Link Posted: 5/25/2003 3:40:55 PM EDT
Thanks for the advice fellas. I did see some no drill no tap scope mounts advertised in the J&G catalogs and the shotgun news
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 3:50:29 PM EDT
One word, Mauser!
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 4:50:21 PM EDT
I have been using a "Bubba" 1903A3 for the last 9 years. I have taken a few deer as well as a black bear with it.

Incidently, I didn't Bubba the gun. I bought it that way cuz it was a cheap way to go from a 30-30 to a 30-06.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 9:27:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy223:
I have been using a "Bubba" 1903A3 for the last 9 years. I have taken a few deer as well as a black bear with it.

Incidently, I didn't Bubba the gun. I bought it that way cuz it was a cheap way to go from a 30-30 to a 30-06.



I'm sorry. I don't get the bubba reference. Is it a conversion or something?
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 9:34:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigern:

Originally Posted By Lumpy223:
I have been using a "Bubba" 1903A3 for the last 9 years. I have taken a few deer as well as a black bear with it.

Incidently, I didn't Bubba the gun. I bought it that way cuz it was a cheap way to go from a 30-30 to a 30-06.



I'm sorry. I don't get the bubba reference. Is it a conversion or something?



"Bubbas" are DIY gun conversions, usually done in a very poor way to fine guns that didn't do anything to deserve such treatment...

I'm sorry....sniff....I can't go on....
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 10:00:47 PM EDT
I picked up a Mosin Nagant several weeks ago, It thumps pretty good and is unexpectedly accurate. Should make a good deer/truck gun.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:42:23 PM EDT
I think the M48 mauser would make a great deer rifle. I'm thinking about deer hunting with mine this year.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:34:26 PM EDT
Many C&R rifles make good hunting rifles. Any 8mm Mauser will do, as will an Enfield .303, an '03 Springfield in 30-06.
My favorite is my 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. The caliber/bullet is very good and the rifles are very accurate.
Many buy an old Turk mauser, which usually has a bad barrel, for the receiver and rebarrel them. Many use a 6.5x55 Swede barrel- these are called "Twedes".
The Mosin Nagants are also a good and accurate rifle.
The only problem in buying a C&R rifle is explaining to your wife that you need another one! It is an addictive hobby.
Jim
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 10:37:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Many C&R rifles make good hunting rifles. Any 8mm Mauser will do, as will an Enfield .303, an '03 Springfield in 30-06.
My favorite is my 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. The caliber/bullet is very good and the rifles are very accurate.
Many buy an old Turk mauser, which usually has a bad barrel, for the receiver and rebarrel them. Many use a 6.5x55 Swede barrel- these are called "Twedes".
The Mosin Nagants are also a good and accurate rifle.
The only problem in buying a C&R rifle is explaining to your wife that you need another one! It is an addictive hobby.
Jim

What about those Schmidt Rubin's?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:01:33 AM EDT
Ah! those Schmidt-Rubins...
Very good and accurate guns. Equivalent to a .308 win in power, very fast cycling.
I have two, a Sig and a Hammerli. I would say they would do great. Also Grafs now has commercial loaded ammo for them so you don't have to handload.
I am speaking about the K31s, the other SR should be about the same.

The safety is a bit goofy but then again I would almost bet it is faster to cycle the bolt on a S-R than to flip the safety off on a mauser. Definitely faster than a mosin or an arisaka. And for you enfield lovers,sorry but I guarantee follow up shots are way faster with the S-R than the enfields.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 6:54:58 PM EDT
The Schmidt Rubin K-31 is my next C&R purchase. I love the rifle and have read many many posts about it's accuracy. The Swiss built these like they do everything else they make- like a Swiss watch!
The barrels are basically free floated and the milsurp ammo is match grade.
Ammo is the only drawback. It is in short supply and I have heard that reloading is fairly involved- apparently noone has brass and the case has to be fireformed and trimmed, yada yada yada.
They are still sweet.
I just wish I could fall in love with something that uses 8mm Mauser ammo. But, nah, too easy.
I probably will have a Yugo M 48 soon also. I think they are the best value out there- about $130.00 will get an unissued Mauser rifle. The M-48 is still a large ring Mauser, unlike my Swede, and using an intermediate action just makes a handier rifle. I also like any milsurp described as having a mirror bore!
Jim
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:35:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
The Schmidt Rubin K-31 is my next C&R purchase. I love the rifle and have read many many posts about it's accuracy. The Swiss built these like they do everything else they make- like a Swiss watch!
The barrels are basically free floated and the milsurp ammo is match grade.
Ammo is the only drawback. It is in short supply and I have heard that reloading is fairly involved- apparently noone has brass and the case has to be fireformed and trimmed, yada yada yada.
They are still sweet.
I just wish I could fall in love with something that uses 8mm Mauser ammo. But, nah, too easy.
I probably will have a Yugo M 48 soon also. I think they are the best value out there- about $130.00 will get an unissued Mauser rifle. The M-48 is still a large ring Mauser, unlike my Swede, and using an intermediate action just makes a handier rifle. I also like any milsurp described as having a mirror bore!
Jim


Reloading for it ain't what it used to be. www.grafs.com not only has loaded ammo but also the brass for it. Lee makes a die set, the rest is just standard reloading. For much more info on what they like to shoot etc, check out http://www.gunboards.com/forums/ scroll down to the swiss weapons board and read all about it. I have been tempted to get one of the scope mounts but I prefer the drill and tap type yet can't convince myself to do that yet.
Have fun :)
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:29:57 PM EDT
Thanks Gary. That makes my choice a lot easier.
My dad has an extra Dillon press that I will be buying from him to load my Swede.
I usually hang out at the C&R forum, but haven't kept up with the K-31. The ones I have held really impress me with their quality. I have never read a single range report that had a complaint about the accuracy. Most claim 1moa with stock, iron sights if the shooter does his part.
The reloaders I have talked to say they have to try hard to duplicate the accuracy of the milsurp ammo, which tells me a lot about the standards the Swiss have for their weapons.
I may still buy a Yugo just to have something that shoots cheap ammo. Cheaper Than Dirt has Turk 8mm ammo, a bandolier of 70 for $4.95. Plinking prices! Cleaning after shooting corrosive ammo isn't a problem either- just use windex with ammonia and then clean normally.
A Yugo is around $100.00 with the Swiss K-31 near that. Both are real bargains, but the Swiss is a real value. I read an article in Rifle magazine that a modern rifle made to the same level of quality would cost about $1500.00, and the writer said his $1500.00 Weatherby could not outshoot it.
Later,
Jim
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 6:32:27 AM EDT
Any firearm that's 50 or more years old is a Curio and Relic. Winchester M1894 has probably killed more deer in North America than any other rifle -- at least in the East. Get one made in 1952 or earlier on your C&R FFL.

My M1898 Krag carbine in .30-40 (.30 Army) is a very handy deer rifle.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 11:51:37 AM EDT

You just can't resell it as a C&R if it is no longer is in original military configuration.

WRONG. Configuration has absolutely no bearing on C&R determination. Never has and never will.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:41:36 PM EDT
Where is your BATF letter JIM_DANDY?

Dennis Jenkins


Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

You just can't resell it as a C&R if it is no longer is in original military configuration.

WRONG. Configuration has absolutely no bearing on C&R determination. Never has and never will.

Link Posted: 5/31/2003 2:57:41 PM EDT

Where is your BATF letter JIM_DANDY?

Dennis Jenkins


Where's YOURS? Cite a source or MOVE ON, this is a bullshit-free zone.

Chuck already pretty well tagged it when he pointed out ANY firearm fifty-years-old or older automatically makes it on the list. Anything else that makes it on the list STAYS on the list.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:22:34 PM EDT
The way I remember it, and I do need to reread the book to make sure, is that you can make any alterations you want and it does not change the weapon's status as a C&R.
You may not break it down and sell, for instance, the receiver only as a C&R. If selling only that part the BATF considers a firearm it can't be treated as a C&R anymore. For instance, JimDandy could sell me an M1 Garand using my C&R license, but not the receiver alone. It would need to go through a FFL dealer as a modern firearm. He could rebarrel and restock the rifle and still retain C&R status.
Jim
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 5:30:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2003 5:42:35 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

You may not break it down and sell, for instance, the receiver only as a C&R. If selling only that part the BATF considers a firearm it can't be treated as a C&R anymore. For instance, JimDandy could sell me an M1 Garand using my C&R license, but not the receiver alone. It would need to go through a FFL dealer as a modern firearm. He could rebarrel and restock the rifle and still retain C&R status.

That's incorrect, too. Since the receiver is the serial numbered component, and thus the C&R firearm, its status remains the same as long as it's on the list.

The only time a firearm's status changes is in the event of an NFA conversion.


From page 11 of Firearms Curios or Relics List/ATF P 5300.11 (3-2001):

"Licensed collectors may acquire, hold, or dispose of these firearms as curios or relics. However, they are still "firearms" as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and are, therefore, subject to all Chapter 44 controls. Generally, this category includes commemorative firearms, pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns."



18 U.S.C. 921(a) (3):

"(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will
or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of
an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler
or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an
antique firearm."
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:12:45 PM EDT
Why should I bother. You already know it all.

Dennis Jenkins



Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Where is your BATF letter JIM_DANDY?

Dennis Jenkins


Where's YOURS? Cite a source or MOVE ON, this is a bullshit-free zone.

Chuck already pretty well tagged it when he pointed out ANY firearm fifty-years-old or older automatically makes it on the list. Anything else that makes it on the list STAYS on the list.

Link Posted: 5/31/2003 8:17:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 9:36:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Ah! those Schmidt-Rubins...
Very good and accurate guns. Equivalent to a .308 win in power, very fast cycling.
I have two, a Sig and a Hammerli. I would say they would do great. Also Grafs now has commercial loaded ammo for them so you don't have to handload.
I am speaking about the K31s, the other SR should be about the same.

The safety is a bit goofy but then again I would almost bet it is faster to cycle the bolt on a S-R than to flip the safety off on a mauser. Definitely faster than a mosin or an arisaka. And for you enfield lovers,sorry but I guarantee follow up shots are way faster with the S-R than the enfields.



Thanks for the tips on the Schmidt Rubin K31s pepperbelly and garyM
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 6:41:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:12:37 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

Why should I bother. You already know it all.

Dennis Jenkins


Well, Denny, it's not about what I know, but about what the BATFE says.

I've offered information straight from BATFE publications on the subject.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:09:07 AM EDT
As most might agree the 8mm Mauser is a popular way to go. Me personally do not care much for the Yugo's, but they are cheap enough for your purposes as is the ammo. You can get an unmarked K98 from SOG Southern Ohio Guns for $199 for collector purposes to start out. It won't be a tried and true all marked up mauser but it is a real WW2 German made Mauser.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 10:52:23 AM EDT


I'd love to hunt with one of my M44 Mosins. The problem I see with using it it the POS saftey/decocker.
There is just no way in hell you could walk around with the gun in a safe mode and still expect to work that freaking thing in time to get a shot off at a deer.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:48:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 8:50:41 PM EDT by guns762]
I may have missed it, but no one suggested an Enfield. Would make an excellent deer rifle, and looks great sporterized. Kinda classy in a Africa/bubba sorta way. That caliber has taken a huge number of game in Africa; no reason it wouldn't make a fine deer rifle for you.


edited to add credit to Aimless's post about the Enfield No.5-sorry didn't read all of your post.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:08:03 PM EDT
Why not an M1891 or M91/30?
Its better than the M44 in its longer barrel. I've heard of good ones hitting the center of a quarter at 100 yards.
Plus the fact that theyre made to be used with optics (Unless your an M44/Bayonet kind of guy )

In any case, get a Nagant or four anyway, theyre dirt cheap to buy, shoot, and alot of fun can be had with em as you dont really baby em around like you would a $2000 hunting rifle(optics included).
Try www.gunsnstuff.net
Theyve got (M44)Nagants for $43/each+shipping.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:38:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 6:41:16 PM EDT by Lazyshooter]
I realize you want something unusual to use for deer, but correct me if I'm wrong, can't you buy one of those factory engraved (stamped) ltd. edition Winchester 1894 models made in the seventies and eighties in 30-30 or 38-55, etc., as long as the model is specifically listed as a C&R by BATF?

Since these aren't real serious collector's pieces, you often see them used at gun shows at fairly reasonable prices.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:00:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 7:03:52 PM EDT by pepperbelly]
Replicas are not considered Curio and Relics.
The ATF site has a list of weapons that are curios, and relics are weapons that are 50 years old or older. There is some discussion about whether a weapon can be classed as a C&R if the date of manufacture is not clear, like a rifle where most are but a few were made in 1955, for example.
The dealer and distributers list whether a weapon is C&R eligible. I just bought a Swiss K-31 from SOG that is a C&R.. I think it is either Aim or Empire Arms have some that are not C&R. Same rifle, later production.
The weapon has to stay in it's original, configuration to retain status as a C&R. Parts may be changed or altered, but this is one of the grey areas causing debate. The problem is that the ATF site is not as clear as it should be. Some have called or written the BATF with a question and have had different people give conflicting answers.
Jim
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:26:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:13:55 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

The weapon has to stay in it's original, configuration to retain status as a C&R.

There is nothing in the BATFE regulations that state this. If the firearm gets classified as a C&R, it's on the list. If it's 50 years old or older, it's automatically on the list. Configuration has nothing to do with it.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:40:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:15:22 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

The problem is that the ATF site is not as clear as it should be.

This is what I got from the BATFE:

"G. COLLECTORS


(G1) Is there a specific license which permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?


Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.41( c), (d), 178.50( b) and 178.93]


(G2) Does a collector's license afford any privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce?

No. A licensed collector has the same status under the GCA as a nonlicensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.93]


(G3) Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?

No. A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio and relic firearms interstate. [18 U. S. C. 922( a) and 923( a)( 1), 27 CFR 178.41]


(G4) Since a licensed firearms dealer may legally receive firearms interstate, including curios or relics, is there any reason why a dealer would need both a dealer's license and collector's license?

No. [27 CFR 178.50( b)]


(G5) Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?

No. Licensed collectors are only required to keep a "bound book" record. [27 CFR 178.125( f)]


(G6) Are licensed collectors' transfers of curio or relic firearms subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?

No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also Questions P13 and P14.) [18 U. S. C. 922( d), 27 CFR 178.32( d)]


(G7) Are licensed collectors required to comply with the requirements that written notification be given to handgun transferees and signs be posted on juvenile handgun possession?

The requirement that written notification concerning juvenile handgun possession be given by licensees to a nonlicensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to curio or relic handguns transferred by licensed collectors. However, the sign posting requirement does not apply to licensed collectors. In the case of collectors, a requirement to post signs at the licensed premises would serve no purpose because the premises is not a business premises open to the public and licensed collectors may lawfully dispose of curio or relic handguns away from their licensed premises. [18 U. S. C. 922( x), 27 CFR 178.103]


(G8) Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/ disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearms importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collector's licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.[18 U. S. C. 923( g)( 4), 27 CFR 178.127]"

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g



www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:52:28 PM EDT
From the ATF site, Firearm Curio or Relics list, SECTION II: Firearms Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44
in section A:
All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

The word original is what causes disagreement.
Also:
ATF site Curio or Relics list, introduction, Importation Restrictions, there is the following:
[A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3). ... Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.
Jim Dandy, it isn't as clear as you make it out to be. If it were as clear as you say there would be no disagreements.
You might want to lighten up a little.
Jim
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 1:28:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:16:31 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

You answered your own question earlier: THIS REFERS TO REPLICAS.


Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.

Since the '68 GCA prohibited the importation of surplus military weapons other than C&R, this addresses that. Notice commercially-made C&R firearms may still be imported regardless of configuration.

Here's the entire piece from the Curios or Relics List:

"Importation Restrictions
Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms, and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).] Surplus military firearms are generally prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3). However, 18 U.S.C. § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles, shotguns, and handguns classified as curios or relics; provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Nonsporting handguns are those pistols and revolvers that do not meet size and safety prerequisites, or which do not accrue a qualifying score on ATF Form 4590, "Factoring Criteria for Weapons." Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation."
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 9:03:53 AM EDT
As to the configuation question, why do some companies not sell 91/30s and other C&R guns with sporter stocks as C&Rs? Same goes for Enfields I've seen that have been sporterized, they are not sold as C&Rs.

Not siding with one or the other, just pointing out an observation.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 10:13:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:17:34 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

As to the configuation question, why do some companies not sell 91/30s and other C&R guns with sporter stocks as C&Rs? Same goes for Enfields I've seen that have been sporterized, they are not sold as C&Rs.

The only time C&R status changes is for importation purposes. Under the '68 GCA, surplus military rifles may only be imported if they are deemed useful for "sporting" purposes or are C&R.

In order to qualify for importation as a C&R, it has to be in its original as-issued configuration. If its configuration changes AFTER it's been imported, it's still a C&R firearm.

If an importer locates a bunch of barreled actions or a supply of actions and assembles them up into something other than its original configuration, the guns are imported as standard non-C&R firearms.

None of this applies to the importation of commercially-produced C&R firearms or domestically-produced C&R military weapons. If you had something like a fifty-plus-year-old FN Mauser that was originally chambered in 7x64mm and it was now rebarreled to .35 Whelen, restocked in a new style, had a different sighting setup, etc., it's still a C&R firearm for importation purposes.

The '68 GCA attempted to limit the importation of surplus military weapons with a few exceptions.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 2:40:23 PM EDT
Now I remember why I stopped coming to this site.
Jim
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 6:14:48 PM EDT
Nope, but you show that a little knowledge about something can make you look foolish. I was ripped off to the tune of over $80.00- get your facts straight before you run your mouth.
The arrogance of many on this board is why I avoid it.
Do you really think you know more than anyone else?
Jim
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 6:48:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Nope, but you show that a little knowledge about something can make you look foolish. I was ripped off to the tune of over $80.00- get your facts straight before you run your mouth.
The arrogance of many on this board is why I avoid it.
Do you really think you know more than anyone else?
Jim



If you hate it so much please take this opportunity to not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Other wise you're just whining.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 8:52:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 8:53:19 AM EDT by warhound]

Originally Posted By guns762:
As to the configuation question, why do some companies not sell 91/30s and other C&R guns with sporter stocks as C&Rs? Same goes for Enfields I've seen that have been sporterized, they are not sold as C&Rs.

Not siding with one or the other, just pointing out an observation.



But they do.

http://64.226.66.194/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CSI&Category_Code=CR
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:15:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
Any firearm that's 50 or more years old is a Curio and Relic. Winchester M1894 has probably killed more deer in North America than any other rifle -- at least in the East. Get one made in 1952 or earlier on your C&R FFL.

My M1898 Krag carbine in .30-40 (.30 Army) is a very handy deer rifle.

-- Chuck





Actually read your C&R list ALL pre-64 1894s are C&R so a nice .30-30 with a serial number less then 2,700,000 is a perfect deer gun. Also all pre-64 model 70s are C&R.


You do bring up a great point however , not all C&Rs are ex-military rifles as seems to be the thinking in this thread :)

Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:37:03 PM EDT
All Model 88 Winchesters are C&R, too (mfg. 1955 to 1974).
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:20:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 2:23:02 PM EDT by pepperbelly]
Bigern, after reading a lot on this I tend to agree with Jim Dandy now. The BATF regualtions are so vague that it is difficult to figure out what they really want to say, and I think it is intentional since they can be very specific.
Jim Dandy and I have traded emails and resolved our disagreement in a friendly way.
Back to your original question, and I should have realized that this would have resolved the modification question for me very quickly. Several people have bought either Turkish or Chech 98 Mausers in bad condition, cracked stocks and bad bores, just for the receiver. Make sure it is a large ring receiver. Buy a barrel in whatever caliber you want. The receiver is strong enough for any caliber that will fit in the magazine. Install a sporter stock, drill and tap and mount a scope and you will have a very good rifle.
I like Swede m-96 Mausers, and I really like the 6.5x55 caliber. It has a high b.c. and s.d. and is an inherantly accurate round that is not finicky about powder or bullet weight. I have read posts from someone who installed a 22-250 barrel and made a very accurate varmint rifle.
Some will say to just buy a modern rifle, but the good ones are based on the Mauser action and I like something I made myself. It is satisfying, like shooting a tight group and have someone ask what ammo am I using, and being able to say "mine".
Figure what you will hunt the most with the rifle and build for that hunt. A 22-250 makes a so-so deer rifle, and a 30-06 makes a poor prairie dog round. You should research your choice through many different boards. Chances are that someone has built what you are thinking about or tried and found problems you will want to know.
Jim
By the way, most people who build up from a receiver buy their starting rifle from wholesalers like Century Arms that sell what they call U-Fix-Ems. These have cracked or no stocks and are usually missing some parts, and are cheap.
Jim
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