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Posted: 4/28/2003 5:15:03 PM EDT
I was thinking a C&R makarov would make a nice carry gun or one of those Argentina 1911's.

Anyone input would be appreciated.

Only reason why im thinking about this is the wealth of cheap but excllent pistols I can get on my C&R (when it comes in).
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 7:51:17 AM EDT
You can't go wrong with the mak. It conceals well, shoots a decent round, and its reliable.

I have came across several people who carry them.
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 2:37:05 PM EDT
A makarov would be very good, if you want a little more power a tokarev would be nice.
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 3:19:40 PM EDT
I carry an E German Mak.
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 3:52:10 PM EDT
Anyone have a good source for C&R makarovs?

Link Posted: 4/29/2003 3:58:40 PM EDT
Gunbroker.com or AuctionArms.com get either an EG or Soviet Mil model (fixed rear sight).
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:31:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2003 7:35:06 PM EDT by Inseminator]
Falco makes a thumb break I.W.B. holster for the mak. It's no Bianchi but it's decent, especially considering the price.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 6:22:36 AM EDT
The Makarov pistol bullet is right down there with .32ACP and 9mmK (.380) in terminal ballistics capability. Better than nothing is the best that can be said about this cartridge.

Once you acquire a C&R pistol you can modify it for CCW as you wish. A good Argentine Colt M1927 fitted with a Commander length barrel and slide is a good starting point.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 7:59:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
The Makarov pistol bullet is right down there with .32ACP and 9mmK (.380) in terminal ballistics capability. Better than nothing is the best that can be said about this cartridge.

Once you acquire a C&R pistol you can modify it for CCW as you wish. A good Argentine Colt M1927 fitted with a Commander length barrel and slide is a good starting point.

-- Chuck




wrong
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 1:21:56 PM EDT
A Makarov would make a great carry gun.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 1:33:48 PM EDT
I use Hornady JHP's in my E German carried in a Milt Sparks Summer Special 2.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:47:04 AM EDT
And the penetration and expansion is what compared to .45ACP?

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:49:49 AM EDT
And the penetration and expansion is what compared to .45ACP?

The Makarov is fine for threatening old women or putting a bullet in the back of the head of troops not fighting with enough vigor (both standard Soviet and East German practices), but the caliber (or any 9mm) is too small to count on when you need it.

Save your Mak for fun shooting or introducing kids to centerfire automatic pistols.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 7:38:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
And the penetration and expansion is what compared to .45ACP?

The Makarov is fine for threatening old women or putting a bullet in the back of the head of troops not fighting with enough vigor (both standard Soviet and East German practices), but the caliber (or any 9mm) is too small to count on when you need it.

Save your Mak for fun shooting or introducing kids to centerfire automatic pistols.

-- Chuck



It appears your a .45 kid of guy...I'd bet you wouldn't say nice things about the G27 I carry either. (Not to hijack the thread)
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 4:36:43 AM EDT
Fobus makes a nice paddle holster for the Maks.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 6:38:43 AM EDT
Chuck

Would you consider carrying a snub nosed .38SPL as a carry piece?

The Mak in 9x18 is superior in every category to that .38SPL ...concealibility, firepower, terminal balistics, etc.

If the .38SPL was good enough for our police and military forces for decades, I would think the 9x18 would fit the bill rather nicely.

To say the 9x18 is akin to a 32ACP or .380 is just plain wrong (as W-W pointed out). Not only is it wrong, but it is irresponsible.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 8:54:15 AM EDT
.38 Special (in any barrel length) is another better than nothing choice. I don't deny decades of police effective use of this caliber. We know a lot more about wound ballistics now, there are better choices.

I try to avoid the ineffective and marginal calibers all together. This includes all the 9mm calibers including the .357s of any velocity. I was not happy when the Army went to 9mm. But note the Army (and others) have retained .45ACP for so-called offensive pistol use.

The Makarov is a totally reliable product in my experience (mine is an East German 1962 vintage) but I'll carry my Colt's Commander every day over the Mak. The Mak is less than 5 oz lighter, marginally smaller, and has an extra roung (9 vs 8) but .45ACP 230gr JHPs are much, much more effective.

All ineffective cartriges are ineffective, hence .25ACP, .32ACP, .380. .38 Special, 9mmMak are all the same: ineffective. Some are more ineffective than others, sure, but they're still in the better than nothing category.

Note the #1 criteria is for any weapon is terminal ballistics -- wounding potential -- not concealability. And, yeah, I acknowledge there may be times when that criteria flip-flops, but rarely. There are very small .45ACP pistols available. I have a Guardian .32ACP for those rare situations (it's hard to carry anything in a tuxedo or mess uniform) as well as a backup the size of my wallet. Better than nothing.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 5:55:21 PM EDT

I try to avoid the ineffective and marginal calibers all together. This includes all the 9mm calibers including the .357s of any velocity.

I'm a little curious about this. I had always understood that high-velocity .357s were hard to beat for their wound ballistics. Is there some reason that they're not?
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:02:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

I try to avoid the ineffective and marginal calibers all together. This includes all the 9mm calibers including the .357s of any velocity.

I'm a little curious about this. I had always understood that high-velocity .357s were hard to beat for their wound ballistics. Is there some reason that they're not?



But it's not a forty fiiivvvveeee!!!!!! You're trying to think this thru logically, when in actuality it's a religious dogma. If it's not a .45 then it just won't do, to suggest otherwise is blasphemy.
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 4:55:55 PM EDT
Yep...not even worth further discussion. (Especially considering that the lowly 357Mag is a proven better stopper than *any* 45ACP.) <poke - jab>
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 6:08:49 PM EDT
Chuck? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 2:34:27 PM EDT
Chuck, are you just going to leave us hanging, or what? I've been like a moron in a round room looking for a corner to piss in waiting on this!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 3:13:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
Chuck, are you just going to leave us hanging, or what? I've been like a moron in a round room looking for a corner to piss in waiting on this!!!!!!!!



Shoot, and here I am ready to dump my 2 S&W686's and my 38 snubby and no further word from Bueller!
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:16:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
Chuck, are you just going to leave us hanging, or what? I've been like a moron in a round room looking for a corner to piss in waiting on this!!!!!!!!



Shoot, and here I am ready to dump my 2 S&W686's and my 38 snubby and no further word from Bueller!



Hey, I'll give ya $50 for one of the 686s. You really don't want that marginally effective, wimpy, underpowered, gun anyway, do ya?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:22:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red-Leg:

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
Chuck, are you just going to leave us hanging, or what? I've been like a moron in a round room looking for a corner to piss in waiting on this!!!!!!!!



Shoot, and here I am ready to dump my 2 S&W686's and my 38 snubby and no further word from Bueller!



Hey, I'll give ya $50 for one of the 686s. You really don't want that marginally effective, wimpy, underpowered, gun anyway, do ya?



For the 4inch or 6inch?

Now to go full circle...I'd say the Mak or a Sistema (for about 400 bucks-ouch) or a Ballester-Molina at $300 will all do the deed as a CCW.

But the Mak for <200 for a Bulgie can't be beat and for 300 a mint EGerman is the way to go.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:33:31 PM EDT
You know what? It's your ass......if you intend to carry a handgun for fashion with little of no intention of ever having to actually use it go with the mak.

If you think that some day you may have to actually survive a gun fight carry a 1911 in .45acp.

It's not religious dogma.......it's documented history. And yes I carry a 1911. Longer than some of you pups been sucking air.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:45:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
You know what? It's your ass......if you intend to carry a handgun for fashion with little of no intention of ever having to actually use it go with the mak.

If you think that some day you may have to actually survive a gun fight carry a 1911 in .45acp.

It's not religious dogma.......it's documented history. And yes I carry a 1911. Longer than some of you pups been sucking air.



Thanks for calling me a pup, Farris.

Why didn't you just tell the fellow Sistema or Ballester-Molina?
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 4:50:16 PM EDT

Thanks for calling me a pup, Farris.

It's Steve, and you're welcome


Why didn't you just tell the fellow Sistema or Ballester-Molina?


Ok......Sistema, the Ballester-Molina's are crap.

Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:34:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2003 6:35:52 PM EDT by W-W]

Originally Posted By SGB:

Thanks for calling me a pup, Farris.

It's Steve, and you're welcome


Why didn't you just tell the fellow Sistema or Ballester-Molina?


Ok......Sistema, the Ballester-Molina's are crap.




OK Steve-I'm Stevan

The fellow asked about C&R's those few C&R Colt 1911 are real pricey...What would you suggest? Why is a Sistema crap???
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:41:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
It's not religious dogma...



You're right, a 45 is a better stopper than the 9x18. That was never the in question. The issue was taken when the 9x18 was compared to a .32.

Further issue was taken when the statement, "I try to avoid the ineffective and marginal calibers all together. This includes all the 9mm calibers including the .357s of any velocity." was made.


....it's documented history.


Once again, you are correct. It is indeed documented history that the .357Mag is a proven better stopper than the .45ACP. The only time I will give the nod to the .45 in this comparison is when comparing FMJ or LRN ammo (as in military applications). In this application, it is obvious that the larger diameter projectile will perform better.

BTW -
cyrax777, sorry about the hijack. I'm done here.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 6:59:30 PM EDT

Why is a Sistema crap???


It isn't. The Ballester-Molina's are crap.

The Sistema 1911's are almost as good as the Colts.

________________________________________
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 7:40:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red-Leg:
It is indeed documented history that the .357Mag is a proven better stopper than the .45ACP. The only time I will give the nod to the .45 in this comparison is when comparing FMJ or LRN ammo (as in military applications). In this application, it is obvious that the larger diameter projectile will perform better.



I cannot cite where I actually read it, but I do remember reading that in a CCW-type revolver (very short barrel), the .357 mag is really no more effective than a .38 special due to lack of muzzle velocity and thus, lack of effective bullet expansion.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 12:44:54 PM EDT

I cannot cite where I actually read it, but I do remember reading that in a CCW-type revolver (very short barrel), the .357 mag is really no more effective than a .38 special due to lack of muzzle velocity and thus, lack of effective bullet expansion.

It was actually reported in several places (G&A, ST, American Rifleman, etc.) and the ballistics were compared between snubnosed (like 2-inch barrels) five-shot .357s, similarly configured .38s, and some of the newer compact automatics like the Glocks. The short .357s give up a LOT of velocity and muzzle energy. Most of the tests actually showed the 9mm as more potent than a compact .357 (and it was easier to shoot than the .357, too). However, I always thought that an HV .357 125-grain load out of a 4-inch barrel was tough to beat in terms of stopping power, BUT CHUCK DECIDED NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION ANYMORE, SO I WON'T GET TO READ HIS TAKE ON ALL OF IT!!!!
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:28:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 10:40:09 PM EDT by gunnysmith]
All of you are correct in your choice of carry weapons if one rule is followed. Hit the target consistantly and frequently. That being said the .22lr is an effective round for self defense. So is the .500 magnum
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:35:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 10:38:07 PM EDT by gunnysmith]
Actually the sistema's are more dense than Colt's and were favored by some of the premier builders of 1911's. The Argentine's were forging the slides and frames for the early Springfield Armory Inc.'s
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 6:12:05 AM EDT
Good Grief!!!!


back on topic...

EG or Russian Military Maks
Colt Police Positive
S&W M&P
S&W M-25 Model of 1955
S&W Brazilian Contract 1917s (maybe the sleeper out there and the best of the bunch even compared to modern Colt 1911s)
Any Colt or S&W revolver made before 1952.
CZ-52? (pretty sure they are C&R BMMW)
Manhurrain PPs
P-38
Some P-35s
STAR Model B (but not the Super)

and add the great suggestions from above...

the Argentine 1911s and those that were modeled after the STAR improvements to the 1911.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:51:22 PM EDT
Ok, I was under the impression a CCW weapon should be less than a full size combat pistol. If you are not worried about size I would have to suggest an Colt Walker or possibly a LeMat but I digress....
Sig_230, I noticed you made a point out of not suggesting the Star Super B, is this due to the non-C&R status or something else? I have a Super A and have considered it as a possible CCW when (or is it if?) missouri gets around to allowing it.

Thanks all, now back to your regular scheduled bitch-fest ;)
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 6:58:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GaryM:

Sig_230, I noticed you made a point out of not suggesting the Star Super B, is this due to the non-C&R status or something else? I have a Super A and have considered it as a possible CCW when (or is it if?) missouri gets around to allowing it.

Thanks all, now back to your regular scheduled bitch-fest ;)



Simply that the Super B, like the Bulgarian Maks, are not C&R yet. It, like all the STARs I've owned, is a great gun. STAR handguns are some of the best out there IMHO and the STAR UltraStar is the best compact 9mm I've ever had the pleasure of shooting, period. But it's not C&R.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 1:16:47 PM EDT
There was mention of the CZ52--Yes, it is C&R. Might be a bit bulky in the grip for some concealment rigs, but it is nice and flat. The cartridge has the added bonus of a heck of a fireball to put bad'uns to flight if it came to that.

There are also conversion barrels to take more readily available 9mm rounds that work well, as well.

As always, one man's perfect carry piece would be the last choice for another, and so on. It all depends on the individual.

It doesn't matter how many rounds it holds, or its stopping power, or whatever, if it's not something you can practice with regularly, and carry every day. Find what you can shoot, carry, and conceal and then practice practice practice.
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