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Posted: 12/15/2005 5:04:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:39:15 PM EDT by RRA-A2]
My 20" GM .920 non-fluted is still pretty new. I don't have an exact round count, but I'm sure it's under 200. I'm getting about 1" to 2" at 50 yrds with any of the ammo I've tried.

How long will it take before I start getting smaller groups?

Is this because my trigger is all factory still?

Could it be that my scope ($40 simmons) has too thick of cross-hairs?

Just trying to figure out what to upgrade next, or if I should just keep shooting it and get more rounds down it first???

Thanks in advance for your suggestions, comments, ect.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:51:56 PM EDT
A GM barrel should be shooting better than that. I can do that well--near the bottom end of it, in fact--with the factory barrel.

Check that the barrel mounting bolts are snug.

Check that all your scope mount screws are snug--base and rings.

What's the bedding of your barrel like? Make sure it's floated. If it is, try a pressure point near the end of the foreend.

What types of ammo have you tried?

Check your scope for parallax. Crosshair thickness shouldn't be a problem of this magnatude. I've shot sub-1" groups at 50 with thick crosshairs, and even with a bit of parallax. (Those problems would REALLY show up at 100.)

And it might need some break-in. I haven't noticed that most of my .22 barrels needed a break-in to shoot well, but my Ruger 77/22V DID suddenly start grouping better after I'd put 500-600 rounds through it.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:01:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Snake45:
A GM barrel should be shooting better than that. I can do that well--near the bottom end of it, in fact--with the factory barrel.

Check that the barrel mounting bolts are snug.

Check that all your scope mount screws are snug--base and rings.

What's the bedding of your barrel like? Make sure it's floated. If it is, try a pressure point near the end of the foreend.

What types of ammo have you tried?

Check your scope for parallax. Crosshair thickness shouldn't be a problem of this magnatude. I've shot sub-1" groups at 50 with thick crosshairs, and even with a bit of parallax. (Those problems would REALLY show up at 100.)

And it might need some break-in. I haven't noticed that most of my .22 barrels needed a break-in to shoot well, but my Ruger 77/22V DID suddenly start grouping better after I'd put 500-600 rounds through it.




+1 on the questions here.

my butler creek bbl. will do .5 moa
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:43:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 7:03:33 AM EDT by RRA-A2]
Here's the rifle:


The above stock is a Hogue OM stock, if you didnt recognize it.
I'm able to slide a 1$ bill under the barrel starting at about 1.5" in front of the reciever...sliding it forward...it stops about .5" from the tip of the forearm.

So....In a way it has a pressure point already at the front???
Would adding bedding be possible with this stock?
I've also noticed that the forearm will flex a little if it's pulled on...but the area around the action feels really solid.

Rings and bases were all tight. Takedown screw tight as well.
I tried CCI standard velocity, CCI mini-mags, Wolf MT, remy subsonics, federal champion, & win. experts. The Wolf MT wouldnt group any better than the CCI's.

I'll try a rear bag next time. As that might be an issue here. I still think my factory trigger has something to do with it, but for all I know the stock may be THE/part of the culprit also.

Thanks for your replies.

edit: spelling

ETA: It was lightly snowing out when I shot the groups yesterday, and it was pretty cold out.
Could this be a factor in my large groups???

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:18:23 AM EDT
make sure the bbl. v block is tight/torqued
what base are you using?
overtorqued rings?
my bbl. is fully floated from the beginning of the stock all the way to about 1" in front of the reciever.
tightning the takedown screw too much would cause problems as well.
if the stock is thin at the takedown is thin the takedown screw could thread into the bbl. and cause problems too.
a better trigger would help but you should be do better than what you are.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 2:45:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
make sure the bbl. v block is tight/torqued
what base are you using?
weaver T09

overtorqued rings?
I'm using simmons rings from walmart...the really low ones. How do I know if they are overtorqued? I just evenly tighten them, enough so the scope won't turn or slide. They MIGHT be too tight though.

my bbl. is fully floated from the beginning of the stock all the way to about 1" in front of the reciever.
tightning the takedown screw too much would cause problems as well.
if the stock is thin at the takedown is thin the takedown screw could thread into the bbl. and cause problems too.
a better trigger would help but you should be do better than what you are.







Next time I go shooting, I'll Take some pics of the targets and post them here.
The combination of the snow and not so great light (it was JUST starting to get dark) may have been a factor too. I was ALSO sighting in a new scope...which should probobly be done with the rifle supported by a bag or bipod AND a rear bag.


Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:48:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:

I'll try a rear bag next time. As that might be an issue here. I still think my factory trigger has something to do with it, but for all I know the stock may be THE/part of the culprit also.

Thanks for your replies.

ETA: It was lightly snowing out when I shot the groups yesterday, and it was pretty cold out.
Could this be a factor in my large groups???

Thanks


No rear bag, factory trigger, and cold weather (its effects on YOU, not on the gun) could EASILY be combining here to double your group sizes. I'd be willing to bet that on a nice day, with SOLID rests front and rear, at least one or more of the ammos you use should group well under an inch. Probably neatly under 3/4". Maybe even a half inch or so.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:10:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Snake45:
No rear bag, factory trigger, and cold weather (its effects on YOU, not on the gun) could EASILY be combining here to double your group sizes. I'd be willing to bet that on a nice day, with SOLID rests front and rear, at least one or more of the ammos you use should group well under an inch. Probably neatly under 3/4". Maybe even a half inch or so.



Exactly what I'm thinking.

Winter sux here...your butt goes numb from the bench, or your thighs go numb from laying prone.

I will sandbag it next time and see if it makes a difference.

Also, I'll dress extra warm...I wasn't shivering, but my hands were pretty dang cold.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:41:30 PM EDT
My GM fluted does around .5 consistantly at 50. I'd send it back.

Truthfully, Gun and Gun part manufacturers have some of the best customer service ever!
I sent a bushy varminter back twice. They replaced everything but the upper reciever until it shot right. Volquartsen sent me a new front sight because I lost one off of a compensator. Dillon sent me a new die because I f(*&*&# one up. CTD sent me 2 new B&C composite barrels cause I didn't think they shot well enough. Around 9/11 I bought a Beretta 96 brig inox and they had RC hardness problems with the extractor and slide catch. They sent me parts every week as I broke them and eventually replaced everything on the slide with blued parts. 50k and it's all good. I believe this is the reason that the pistol has the blued parts on the stainless pistols now. After the guys at my range would see me come out with a broken pistol after 50 rounds the three times I replaced my slide catch.

For example if an Allen Bradely $3K processor comes in DOA they give me a referb.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:34:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 9:34:58 PM EDT by jrinfoley]
first of all, put in a Volquarsten hammer. Then make sure your barrel is free floating. My GM barreled 10/22 with a VQ hammer and a Tennessee Precision trigger will shoot one hole groups @ 30 yds. And I mean 1/4 inch groups at that range.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:40:49 PM EDT
Get a good scope on it and try it again with some Match ammo and then report back.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:27:45 AM EDT
Might also try taking the trigger group apart and flipping the trigger return plunger and spring so the spring bears on the trigger instead of the plunger. That helped my trigger more than 2 hours of stoning engagement surfaces to 100% engagement. Didn't really help the groups, but then it was already putting 10 rounds into one big hole at 50 yds
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:37:47 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies!

I'm going out again on monday. I really need to shoot this some more before I decide what to do.

A VQ hammer is next on the list for sure!

I'll try a rear bag too this time... as the weather may have had more of an effect on ME than I thought.

I'm going to look into a better scope too. When I was sighting this one in...the clicks just seemed out of whack. 5 clicks up...ok. Next adjustment, I want to move it the same distance as before. So 5 more clicks up.......Now it wants 10 or 12 to move that distance.

Is this a sign that I'm a cheap bastard, and that I need to pony up and get a better scope???
The 44mag scopes from simmons look like they have worked well for people. If I can spend less than $100 on a scope, and get something that works GOOD, I may get one VERY soon.

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:05:06 AM EDT
the simmons 44mag is a great bench scope! i use it and love it for the price, natchezss has them for $100


Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:05:38 AM EDT
Take a look at BSA's scopes, they have some pretty decent stuff for under $100. I have a BSA Classic 4-12x50 on mine and it works great. I doubt it would survive on my Savage, but it's fine for the 10/22.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:36:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SniperKage:
Take a look at BSA's scopes, they have some pretty decent stuff for under $100. I have a BSA Classic 4-12x50 on mine and it works great. I doubt it would survive on my Savage, but it's fine for the 10/22.





i shot with a guy at the local range that couldnt keep the bsa zeroed.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:48:22 AM EDT
I am not much of a fan of the simmons but the 44 mag has a good reputation. The BSA however, I have heard stands for "Bought Sh!+ Again."
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:24:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i shot with a guy at the local range that couldnt keep the bsa zeroed.



That's why you have to buy 'em locally If it won't hold a zero, take it back and get a new one. I got lucky with mine and it's been a good scope.

There's also the chance the scope wasn't seated when set up. Gotta make sure the rings are against the front of the recoil slot before tightening them down.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:04:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SniperKage:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i shot with a guy at the local range that couldnt keep the bsa zeroed.



That's why you have to buy 'em locally If it won't hold a zero, take it back and get a new one. I got lucky with mine and it's been a good scope.

There's also the chance the scope wasn't seated when set up. Gotta make sure the rings are against the front of the recoil slot before tightening them down.



Huh?! I'll check that, never about where they sit in the slot (if there's any play). But how would this matter much, if everythings tight anyway? I'll re-mount them anyways though, ya never know.



Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:13:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:

Huh?! I'll check that, never about where they sit in the slot (if there's any play). But how would this matter much, if everythings tight anyway? I'll re-mount them anyways though, ya never know.






It's not as important on a rimfire, but if you don't seat the recoil lugs on a centerfire you can get some pretty goofy results, especially if you're using aluminum bases or rings. What I always do on every gun, rimfire, centerfire, or airgun, is screw on the bases loosely, push them forward, and tighten them down, then put the rings on the bases, again loosely, push them forward against the slot, and tighten them down snug. After that I align the rings if they're windage adjustable (like Milletts) and lap them. If that doesn't work and I can't hold a zero I'll bed the bases with epoxy. Haven't had a zero problem related to optics mounting with all that stuff.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:41:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 3:45:08 PM EDT by RRA-A2]
UPDATE: 12-20-05

I made it out today to shoot. I could barely feel my trigger finger, as I still had basically NO gloves.
I switched back to my old stock. (T-hole sporter from cabela's)

I put a thin piece of foam about 1/2in. from the tip of the forend as a pressure pad.
I did NOT use a rear bag, forgot to get one.

I should also note that my scope base was LOOSE!!! I checked the rings the other day, where they attach to the rail, and where they clamp to the scope...BUT I NEVER CHECKED THE BASE!

I tightened EVERYTHING up and went out. Here's some pics. The dime is there as a referance to the group size.

CCI MiniMag, 25 rounds, from a bench...using a bipod and no rear bag:

I had to zero the scope a little more. It was shooting high. The next pics are after I adjusted the elevation down.

CCI Standard Velocity, 25 rounds, from bench...bipod & no rear bag:


Wolf MT, 10 rounds, from bench...bipod & no rear bag.
I had to put a green marker sticker on the center because I could barely see, it was getting dark out.


I like the t-hole stock alot better now. I think my problem with the hogue was that I wasnt getting a consistent cheek weld. The t-hole stock has a much higher comb...makes for a good consistent cheek weld w/ my rings/scope height. Part of the problem was definately the loose scope base.
I don't know how I overlooked that before.

I kept jerking the trigger, since I could barely feel my finger, and the heavy pull weight.
I will order a VQ hammer before I do anything else w/it. Regardless, I'm happy with it.
I'm confident that I can produce smaller groups this summer when the bitter cold isnt affecting ME and my fingers. It should improve also when I start using a rear bag. A scope with more than a 9x zoom & finer crosshairs should improve things also.

ETA: These groups were all shot a 50 yards.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:44:57 PM EDT
I TOLD you to check the screws on the scope base, rings, everything!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:02:14 AM EDT
skip the vq hammer and get the kidd saves money in the end


Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:57:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
skip the vq hammer and get the kidd saves money in the end





yeah I know, it's tempting!

I think I'm going to get some gloves first though

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:02:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Snake45:
I TOLD you to check the screws on the scope base, rings, everything!



I know, I'm an idiot

I think I'm going to blue loctite everything just to be sure.
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