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Posted: 4/25/2021 2:44:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe I should have worded something differently. Why don’t people want soft armor covering the parts of their torso that hard armor doesn’t cover? Because the minimal increase in coverage against a lesser threat is not worth the larger increase in heat and weight along with the loss of agility. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 5:38:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because the minimal increase in coverage against a lesser threat is not worth the larger increase in heat and weight along with the loss of agility. I agree. In my view there are two primary situations in which i want armor: 1) going to battle knowingly, in which case I'm grabbing a full size AR, plate carrier, and any engagement will likely happen at range, adversary is likely also equipped with rifle so soft armor is pointless, so i'd rather shed the weight and remain mobile and agile. Any extra weight reduces my ability to move quickly to be in the right place at the right time, or to get fatigued faster if i have to book it 2) going into an area of increased risk but want to remain incognito and a full size rifle and plate would be socially unacceptable. in this case, threats are likely to come from a concealed handgun and soft armor can be effective, but only if it's concealed so they don't know not to aim for center mass |
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Posted: 5/5/2021 12:00:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can find soft armor that fits anyone but the smallest twig of a human being and isn't glaringly obvious under that kind of clothing, shoot me a link. Point Blank Executive Made to wear under regular clothing. I've been wearing it M-F 8-5 for five years and people don't even notice it. |
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Posted: 5/5/2021 8:38:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Point Blank Executive Made to wear under regular clothing. I've been wearing it M-F 8-5 for five years and people don't even notice it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you can find soft armor that fits anyone but the smallest twig of a human being and isn't glaringly obvious under that kind of clothing, shoot me a link. Point Blank Executive Made to wear under regular clothing. I've been wearing it M-F 8-5 for five years and people don't even notice it. I am guessing that runs like $900? |
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Posted: 5/5/2021 8:52:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am guessing that runs like $900? Looks like they only sell it with their high end AXII and AXIIIA packages, so list price is $1512 and $1692 respectively. It also has minimal side coverage, which is not ideal. With their Vision full-wrap under-shirt carrier it's $1572 and $1761 respectively. |
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Posted: 5/7/2021 5:06:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I get it for overseas work but domestically the large majority of threats at this time are handgun rounds. Not having a soft armor vest leaves a lot of space uncovered. I’ve had a preference for some time of plates over IIIA and if I had to choose between plates OR soft armor, I’d probably pick soft armor right now. Obviously we could reach a point where the security situation deteriorates and rifles become a more common threat. When you guys weighed this decision why did you choose whatever you chose? Already there. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/video-blm-militants-draw-ar-15s-ak-47s-portland-motorists-no-police-scene-reign-terror-continues/ this is where I live. |
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Posted: 5/8/2021 2:35:17 PM EDT
[#7]
I divide it up into 3 simple categories:
1) A concealable soft armor vest for pistol threats only 2) A plate carrier setup where your primary concern is rifle threats but you need to wear it for a large % of the day. 3) A CQB setup with a kevlar soft armor carrier where you also have ceramic plates on the front, back, and side Eventually you should probably have all three if you can afford it. |
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Posted: 6/23/2021 6:04:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Something I didn't see mentioned is a PC with IIIa plates backers. Sort of a middle ground in terms of concealability and speed vs lower heat retention and coverage.
Or, more likely, not good enough at either option 
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Posted: 6/24/2021 1:50:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Top pic doesn't look too bad. Bottom pic is pretty noticeable. That said, concealability is just one of many factors when it comes to BA. Hell, it may not be a factor at all depending on your needs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm still wondering where anyone is finding soft armor that doesn't make you look like a 200 pound box of potatoes under normal clothing. I live in a part of the US where wearing more than a t-shirt and gym shorts or cargo shorts draws attention to you - you might get away with a button-down Tommy Bahama or Columbia shirt without being noticeably different than everyone else, all but 1-2 months a year (and usually not after between 11am-1pm any of the days in those two months). If you can find soft armor that fits anyone but the smallest twig of a human being and isn't glaringly obvious under that kind of clothing, shoot me a link. I have personal soft armor that isn't totally noticeable, but both of my issued vests have made me look like the Tin Man from the neck to the waist... not to mention they fucking suck for wearing 10-12+ hours a day, even in an air-conditioned building. In a foot pursuit, a fight, or anything else? I'd rather just not be in that place. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Stinger-Level-II-Review-an-affordable-and-concealable-vest-for-weird-times/10-517294/ https://midwestarmor.com/products/specter-stinger-ii/ https://i.ibb.co/YhDt6sw/Midwest-Level-II-Concealability.png https://i.ibb.co/Hd8xQyb/Midwest-Stinger-II-Lacoste-comparison.png Top pic doesn't look too bad. Bottom pic is pretty noticeable. That said, concealability is just one of many factors when it comes to BA. Hell, it may not be a factor at all depending on your needs. Change the shirt to black or navy and it most likely is invisible to 99% of the public. |
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Posted: 6/24/2021 2:01:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Per arfs usual advice......i got both.
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Posted: 6/24/2021 2:03:29 PM EDT
[#11]
I have to wonder, what would it be like to be shot, wearing a hard plate, with no soft armor underneath to soak up any of the energy. I would think it would be pretty traumatic, and painful.
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Posted: 6/24/2021 5:36:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have to wonder, what would it be like to be shot, wearing a hard plate, with no soft armor underneath to soak up any of the energy. I would think it would be pretty traumatic, and painful. Depending on the threat and the plate it could be anywhere from not particularly bad to extremely unpleasant. Ceramic plates are about half ceramic and half some sort of polymer fabric composite layup (think fiberglass but fancier), and they absorb a huge amount of the bullet's energy by breaking up the ceramic and then turning the kinetic energy of the bullet into heat. |
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Posted: 6/24/2021 6:36:33 PM EDT
[#13]
It's a lot of extra weight and bulk. The different vests I've been issued through .mil or LE that combine hard armor over a kevlar vest hamper movement considerably. After a lot of wearing an IOTV, I could get around pretty good in it, but it still sucked.
I have a First Spear Strandhogg with soft armor in the cumberbund. There's some weight to the setup, but it's much easier to move in. |
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Posted: 6/24/2021 7:36:11 PM EDT
[#14]
I think it can be done well -- I've had good success with my Velocity LPAC. I'd like to mess around with something in MBAV cut, either an LV-MBAV or an MBAV AVS. It's definitely less comfy than my JPC but it's also got more coverage. I think the best way to think about it is that it's for a different purpose.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 2:32:51 PM EDT
[#15]
I think honestly the number one reason we see move civis buying stand PCs without soft armor is that is what the high speed guys in the middle east are doing. It's the right tradeoff for them but not necessarily the right tradeoff for civis here. Most gear buyers stateside don't actually evaluate their needs, they just buy what the high speed guys are using without regard for the mission specific needs that drive the choices they make.
Heat is a big problem with soft armor. But is your AO a hot area? Here in Washington we're dying from 100 degree heat this week. That is extremely abnormal here. Mobility is extremely important to survival. But are you maneuvering on known position threats or standing watch around your neighborhood? Mobility doesn't help you if you take the first round fired in a surprise attack. Given the threat profile in my area I own both a vest and a PC. I can wear one or the other, or both, as the situation dictates. Lately the industry has definitely been focusing on stand alone plate development. I would love to see the latest technology used to produce a new generation of ICW plates for stacking over a vest. Imagine something like a 3810 slimmed down to work ICW a Level II vest. That'd be pretty damn concealable and not too heavy for an AO with an average temp of 50F. |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 12:33:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Something I didn't see mentioned is a PC with IIIa plates backers. Sort of a middle ground in terms of concealability and speed vs lower heat retention and coverage. Or, more likely, not good enough at either option Plate backers are the same size as the plate hence the name. They offer no additional coverage. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 2:56:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think honestly the number one reason we see move civis buying stand PCs without soft armor is that is what the high speed guys in the middle east are doing. It's the right tradeoff for them but not necessarily the right tradeoff for civis here. Most gear buyers stateside don't actually evaluate their needs, they just buy what the high speed guys are using without regard for the mission specific needs that drive the choices they make. Heat is a big problem with soft armor. But is your AO a hot area? Here in Washington we're dying from 100 degree heat this week. That is extremely abnormal here. Mobility is extremely important to survival. But are you maneuvering on known position threats or standing watch around your neighborhood? Mobility doesn't help you if you take the first round fired in a surprise attack. Given the threat profile in my area I own both a vest and a PC. I can wear one or the other, or both, as the situation dictates. Lately the industry has definitely been focusing on stand alone plate development. I would love to see the latest technology used to produce a new generation of ICW plates for stacking over a vest. Imagine something like a 3810 slimmed down to work ICW a Level II vest. That'd be pretty damn concealable and not too heavy for an AO with an average temp of 50F. Honestly with how thin a good thin SA plate is these days (see HESCO's 4800LV and U210, and Tencate's CR6450SA/AT Armor's STOP-BZ/Velocity's API-BZ) I don't think there's much improvement from designing an SA plate. If you look at some of the thin LTC plates, you can design a plate as thin as 0.43" nominal thickness that'll stop M193/M855/M855A1/7.62x39 API BZ/7.62x51 M80 when worn ICW IIIA , but it's going to be relatively fragile and the savings in thickness would probably best be reinvested into either some foam on the strikeface or just a slightly thicker, more protective plate. I don't think trying to conceal plates is particularly useful, either. They print really really hard basically whatever you do. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 4:24:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plate backers are the same size as the plate hence the name. They offer no additional coverage. I know, but they offer some coverage, without the weight penalties of plates or a full vest. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 4:26:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know, but they offer some coverage, without the weight penalties of plates or a full vest. Wait now you want 120 square inches of soft armor now? |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 10:09:30 PM EDT
[#20]
In my view, if i'm going to battle then i'm taking my rifle and I expect engagements to occur at rifle ranges, hence soft armor is irrelevant because we're outside pistol range.
Soft armor makes more sense for concealed applications where I only have a pistol and expect to be engage bad guys that also are at handgun range. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 1:30:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my view, if i'm going to battle then i'm taking my rifle and I expect engagements to occur at rifle ranges, hence soft armor is irrelevant because we're outside pistol range. Soft armor makes more sense for concealed applications where I only have a pistol and expect to be engage bad guys that also are at handgun range. Soft armor does wonders for not dying to shell splinters or fragmentation, which typically accompanies rifle fire. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 8:45:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Soft armor is for people who are serious about staying alive domestically.
Plate carriers are for fantasy role playing. Upwards of 90% of domestic gunshot wounds are handguns and shotguns… Plates cover a very small area and have huge angularity to threat vulnerability. They were designed to work in conjunction with soft…not as a replacement. In narrow circumstances, plate carriers are valid…for assaulters who have speed, surprise, and firepower on their side in a time/place of their choosing. Outside that mission set, their protection is minimal. People act like getting shot outside the plate is no big deal…only a kidney, not fatal…nonsense. You get shot in a lot of places outside that plate and you are in a world of hurt, out of the fight, and likely looking at a slow painful death. Soft + Plates for defensive wear…soft only for domestic mobility and low vis. Plate carriers get into LARPing territory quickly. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 9:29:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Well said.
In the Middle East the two things that are going to kill you are rifles and heat but we aren’t there yet. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 10:55:01 PM EDT
[#24]
For domestic trying to blend and not attract attention while being concerned about rifles…
https://www.pointblankenterprises.com/point-blank-body-armor/assets/fas-cp-2017.pdf Thin plates aren’t cheap…good plates are thin plates. Thick plates make everything harder. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 6:43:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soft armor is for people who are serious about staying alive domestically. Plate carriers are for fantasy role playing. Upwards of 90% of domestic gunshot wounds are handguns and shotguns… Plates cover a very small area and have huge angularity to threat vulnerability. They were designed to work in conjunction with soft…not as a replacement. In narrow circumstances, plate carriers are valid…for assaulters who have speed, surprise, and firepower on their side in a time/place of their choosing. Outside that mission set, their protection is minimal. People act like getting shot outside the plate is no big deal…only a kidney, not fatal…nonsense. You get shot in a lot of places outside that plate and you are in a world of hurt, out of the fight, and likely looking at a slow painful death. Soft + Plates for defensive wear…soft only for domestic mobility and low vis. Plate carriers get into LARPing territory quickly. Why do stand alone plates exist then? Mobility is always a factor, even outside of assaulting. So is heat. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:52:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know, but they offer some coverage, without the weight penalties of plates or a full vest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Plate backers are the same size as the plate hence the name. They offer no additional coverage. I know, but they offer some coverage, without the weight penalties of plates or a full vest. How do they offer some coverage when the soft armor is the exact same size of the plate?  Provide protection from BFD when behind a plate? Sure. Some additional physical comfort vs just a hard plate? Maybe.
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:54:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soft armor is for people who are serious about staying alive domestically. Plate carriers are for fantasy role playing. Upwards of 90% of domestic gunshot wounds are handguns and shotguns… Plates cover a very small area and have huge angularity to threat vulnerability. They were designed to work in conjunction with soft…not as a replacement. In narrow circumstances, plate carriers are valid…for assaulters who have speed, surprise, and firepower on their side in a time/place of their choosing. Outside that mission set, their protection is minimal. People act like getting shot outside the plate is no big deal…only a kidney, not fatal…nonsense. You get shot in a lot of places outside that plate and you are in a world of hurt, out of the fight, and likely looking at a slow painful death. Soft + Plates for defensive wear…soft only for domestic mobility and low vis. Plate carriers get into LARPing territory quickly. +1. I'm especially concerned with the trend towards PCs among LE tac teams. Not that I think a ridiculous Michelin man vest is a good choice either, but there is a middle ground. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:56:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do stand alone plates exist then? Mobility is always a factor, even outside of assaulting. So is heat. To some degree, because end users started wearing plates without soft armor. This will come as a shock but many people, even at the highest levels, don't always read the fine print. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 9:30:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To some degree, because end users started wearing plates without soft armor. This will come as a shock but many people, even at the highest levels, don't always read the fine print. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why do stand alone plates exist then? Mobility is always a factor, even outside of assaulting. So is heat. To some degree, because end users started wearing plates without soft armor. This will come as a shock but many people, even at the highest levels, don't always read the fine print. Stand alone is relative. All plates give off frag and potentially spall, even ceramics. Edge hits are a huge issue with plates like the ESAPI which is why test shots are specifically fired a certain distance in from the edge. Angular hits are a real problem, regardless of plate type. Soft armor helps mitigate some of this. Remember that armored turtleneck piece that went with the IOTV and similar vests? That’s a lot of why… The thing is, “in conjunction with” is an almost impossible rating unless you are testing a specific set of soft armor with a specific plate. You can’t just say “wear a 3a backer” as any backer would have to be tested with that plate to certify…so, it gets messy trying to certify plates as ICW. Companies do it but it’s wrong…generally. So, you get plates that are SA for some calibers and ICW for others…but really, all plates are safer ICW. There is a lot to understand about plates and what happens when you get shot wearing one. It’s not always as simple as just carrying on, depending on the plate, threat, point of impact, and so on. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 9:44:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1. I'm especially concerned with the trend towards PCs among LE tac teams. Not that I think a ridiculous Michelin man vest is a good choice either, but there is a middle ground. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Soft armor is for people who are serious about staying alive domestically. Plate carriers are for fantasy role playing. Upwards of 90% of domestic gunshot wounds are handguns and shotguns… Plates cover a very small area and have huge angularity to threat vulnerability. They were designed to work in conjunction with soft…not as a replacement. In narrow circumstances, plate carriers are valid…for assaulters who have speed, surprise, and firepower on their side in a time/place of their choosing. Outside that mission set, their protection is minimal. People act like getting shot outside the plate is no big deal…only a kidney, not fatal…nonsense. You get shot in a lot of places outside that plate and you are in a world of hurt, out of the fight, and likely looking at a slow painful death. Soft + Plates for defensive wear…soft only for domestic mobility and low vis. Plate carriers get into LARPing territory quickly. +1. I'm especially concerned with the trend towards PCs among LE tac teams. Not that I think a ridiculous Michelin man vest is a good choice either, but there is a middle ground. Operator as fuck  It’s absurd. You are correct. UoF policy almost guarantees criminals will get off rounds in a warrant service…often while the LEOs are standing on the porch. More armor is needed, not less. NYPD used to have giant shield type setups they would roll into an apartment building and put all along the suspects wall into a hallway, plus a ballistic type door. They did that because suspects would blast through the wall and hit cops in the hall outside. It contained the threat so negotiation could happen. What’s old is new again. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 3:24:06 PM EDT
[#31]
A trend to note is that a lot of those "handgun" stats from ghetto goblins include things like rifle caliber "pistols", along with a greater and greater number of illegal SBR's. Stuff like AR's, PAP's, Dracos, etc.
Concern over simple civil unrest when the ghetto is close enough to be a problem may indicate the use of rifle armor. People should own soft armor, although once there is a reason to bring rifles/PCC's and extra mags into the picture it's time to step up to plates. |
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Posted: 7/6/2021 10:17:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do they offer some coverage when the soft armor is the exact same size of the plate? Provide protection from BFD when behind a plate? Sure. Some additional physical comfort vs just a hard plate? Maybe.Using soft IN LIEU OF hard armor. 120 sq inches of coverage beats no coverage. |
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Posted: 7/6/2021 11:09:03 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Using soft IN LIEU OF hard armor. 120 sq inches of coverage beats no coverage. Yeah that’s pretty dumb. |
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Posted: 7/6/2021 11:49:39 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 7/6/2021 12:33:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Using soft IN LIEU OF hard armor. 120 sq inches of coverage beats no coverage. Generally, soft is assumed to fail if a round strikes within 1 inch of the edge as it is likely to slide off the edge of the panel. Angle of attack matters as well. |
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Posted: 7/10/2021 9:12:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Generally, soft is assumed to fail if a round strikes within 1 inch of the edge as it is likely to slide off the edge of the panel. Angle of attack matters as well. There is the option of level III hard plates. They are very thin and light - should still be easy to conceal. I bought a plate carrier and plates for my "if things get bad" scenario. I originally had no intention of getting a carrier at all and just get a good quality chest rig only. However, an incredible deal on plates and a carrier sorta fell in my lap, I just couldn't pass it up. After reading this thread, perhaps a BALCS type system would be better: The soft armor in a low profile carrier for most scenarios and you can then insert a hard plate for that limited threat situation. |
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Posted: 7/10/2021 12:11:13 PM EDT
[#37]
I have both
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Posted: 7/10/2021 1:57:16 PM EDT
[#38]
I have worked well over a decade as full time LE, split between patrol and as a detective conducting my own high risk felony apprehensions. If I could wear just a plate carrier at work instead of soft armor ALL THE TIME I would and so would a lot of other officers. The reasons are heat... because soft armor is horrible for being too hot, and the way you shoulder a weapon on soft armor makes long gun use slightly less natural, comfortable, and less accurate. I certainly think soft armor side cummerbund panels are a nice supplement, but would not want full coverage soft armor under plates for anything but short term dedicated entry team work. It is just too bulky, too hot, and too heavy. Decent stand alone plates, especially modern stand alone plates do NOT have spall issues. They have anti spall wrap and padding on the face and are going to be in a plate bag, making a shot or two not a spall hazard.
To me soft armor is for concealment when armed with a pistol, usually level II, since IIIa is overkill. Plates for anything where you will be using a rifle. There is an ex-marine at my PD who would wear just a chest rig vs a plate carrier if he could. Again for heat and comfort issues, easier to get mags from etc. Mobility and speed trumps armor but, IMO you still need armor. A plate carrier is perfect for that role. I am about the least heat tolerant person you will ever meet. Soft armor is a massive liability for me and I simply could not afford the heat retention if I had to wear armor for extended periods outdoors in hot weather. I would become a heat casualty on day 1 or 2. If you live up north or handle heat well it msy be less of an issue for you. |
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Posted: 7/10/2021 8:33:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Modern use of force law eliminates mobility and speed. It forces you to be reactive and virtually guarantees that an armed suspect can get rounds off.
This applies equally to most non LE confrontations. Any LEO who would seriously run a chest rig and zero armor for anything other than an extreme wilderness SAR type mission is just hard to take seriously. |
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Posted: 7/11/2021 12:54:39 PM EDT
[#40]
i have an Interceptor IBA with a set of ceramics but its my winter set up, no way i’m running around in that thing in the summer heat here in AZ.
going to pick up a simple carrier for the hot season  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/11/2021 9:46:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Is there a IIa or IIIa vest with plate pockets that folks would recommend? Living in Seattle stab resistance is probably as if not more important than the ballistic rating.
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Posted: 7/11/2021 10:34:31 PM EDT
[#42]
I use the current USMC IMTV which comes with lvl 3a soft armor.
The only downside is you loose mobility by having a much bulkier vest, and you add weight. I think when I weighed it with the steel plates I stupidly bought, and 3 mags it was close to 38lbs. Its a lot of weight to be carrying even for a short amount of time. I'll be upgrading my PC soon and will sacrifice the better coverage of the IMTV for something that I can comfortably wear for long periods, while also being more maneuverable. I wore the full kit for a 3 mile ruck and shoot, and not only did I feel like I was suffocating in the heat (it was only 75 but the large coverage area traps sweat and heat) but when it came time to run and move, lay down get up and bound to the shooting lane I thought I was going to die. Gave me a real respect for the guys wearing that shit, doing that shit every day overseas. Something to consider. I know when I got it I even thought I was going to use the side plates. I shed those real quick. |
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Posted: 7/13/2021 2:25:16 AM EDT
[#43]
For shits and grins, I just tried on my shooters cut JPC 2.0 w/ L210's with one of my IIIA soft armor vests (also "shooters style") and it is very doable. The extra coverage protection with the soft armor on is very negligible. A little on the sides and that's about it.
With that being said, I think having a set up that works for different situations is a good thing. I think concealable soft armor is definitely something someone should have and would see more real world practical use. But, I think a PC with plates that can carry spare mags is a must too. |
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Posted: 7/23/2021 11:06:14 PM EDT
[#44]
You might want to think of some sort of Stab-resistance. Plates will do that, but most soft armor won't. Some assailants will have knives, probably more of them than have firearms.
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Posted: 7/26/2021 6:36:26 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  But I don't recommend midwest armor currentlyhttps://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Armor-Order-Tracking/10-513763/ I have both but am still waiting for an order from October from midwest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Stinger-Level-II-Review-an-affordable-and-concealable-vest-for-weird-times/10-517294/ https://midwestarmor.com/products/specter-stinger-ii/ https://i.ibb.co/YhDt6sw/Midwest-Level-II-Concealability.png https://i.ibb.co/Hd8xQyb/Midwest-Stinger-II-Lacoste-comparison.png But I don't recommend midwest armor currentlyhttps://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Armor-Order-Tracking/10-513763/ I have both but am still waiting for an order from October from midwest. I can get y'all that stuff 
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