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Posted: 11/8/2017 12:54:22 AM EDT
So our church has gotten interested very quickly in setting up a security plan, after the incident in Texas.  We have some member that carry, but want something more formal, and will be addressing that this Sunday night.  Security cameras, controlling access into the church, evac routes, having someone monitor the parking lot, checking door, etc will be discussed hopefully.  

I think that armor should also be in the discussion.  I don't know much about armor except for what I have read here.  

It seems that generally civilians can buy armor, as long as they are not a felon.

#1 should armor be a part of this discussion?  I would think yes.  In a situation like the Texas shooting, especially if there is no quick exit available, and you can't evacuate everyone instantly, that the assailant would need to be confronted with force, and that if they are wielding a rifle, the church security member would best be wearing something that would take rifle rounds... as we saw the assailant was using a rifle in Texas.  

#2 if so, then what plates / armor.  This armor would not be needed for running around in usually, and the church is air conditioned, so sweating should be minimal.  Still, it should be able to be concealed fairly well under a suit jacket if possible.  After reading here, I have been looking on bulletproofme.com  
SAPI plates would have been able to take 3 hits from an AR, and a carrier like the Blackhawk Low Vis would be able to go under a jacket.

Any input would be welcome.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 1:40:10 AM EDT
[#1]
First of all, in response to question 1, it sounds like neither you nor the other members of your church security have worn armor before. So let me make something abundantly clear here: Armor is hot when it's hot out, cold when it's cold out. It's heavy. It's somewhat restrictive. It is not fun to wear for hours on end. 

With that out of the way let's get down to the nitty gritty. For a concealable carrier I recommend the Beez Combat Extreme Concealment carrier. I own one myself and while I have my gripes about it I can't think of any better concealable carrier option. I can conceal it with my steel plates under a thin, single layer vest. 

Plates are a more difficult decision. For concealment purposes I'd recommend steel plates. Most people here won't recommend steel but most people aren't attempting to conceal their plates. Steel is, as far as I know, the thinnest rifle rated armor solution. Ceramic and polyethylene will both be thicker. 

As for what plates I'd recommend, I'd go with Spartan Armor AR550 plates or possibly their thinner AR650 plates. Of course with the AR650 plates being thinner you lose some ballistic integrity. I personally own a set of the AR550 plates, triple curve with full coat. Very comfortable shape wise, not so much weight wise. Steel is a heavy option. However it will stop most common rifle threats. 

That said, no matter what plates you get, for maximum concealment you want a multicurve plate, not flat or single curve. In addition to being harder to conceal a flat or single curve is much less comfortable than a multicurve plate. 

ETA: I should mention that there are other versions of the Beez carrier linked above that have options for SAPI sized plates should you wish to go that route. 
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 2:06:21 AM EDT
[#2]
https://www.premierbodyarmor.com/product/premier-durus-8000-armor-2/

just got these,  good on weight, ( depends on size you get of course )
very nice and comfortable.

it works, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WOL1Y470GY
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 2:59:31 AM EDT
[#3]
First off I think rifle plates are overkill for what you are describing . If you absolutely positively feel like you need hard armor I would not recomend steel. There are options in the speed plate market that are half an inch thick which is about the same as a steel plate with build up and will stop threats from an AR pattern rifle. A carrier like the beez  would work, as would carriers like the warrior assault systems CPC. If you do want plates and you think an AR is a credible threat those premiere plates will not stop the most common weight of bullet in an AR from the most common barrel length, M193 with a 16 inch barrel. What would be many more times as effective as one guy in armor is 2-3 armed deacons or church elders who shoot a lot that way the shooter would be facing several people from more angles than one guy who is shooting back. My church has events with the men's ministry where we go shooting and have fellowship.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 10:16:36 AM EDT
[#4]
Kudos to your church for taking security seriously!
As others have said, body armor isn't comfortable. Wear it every day for a 13 hour shift, when its 115 degrees out and yer chest will smell like your feet LOL. You'll sweat and feel like a sausage in a double X small casing.
But once you get used to it, its not so bad LOL.

Level II armor stops most handgun threats. Level IIa is thinner, stops less. Level IIIA stops some rifle and level III/IV stops more rifle up to 308 and 30.06.
The higher the level the heavier/thicker it is.

Soft body armor generally is designed for handgun. You can get small trauma plated for the sternum 5x8" that do increase the protection but they're designed to reduce blunt trauma to the sternum. Even if the armor stops a bullet in that area the force can still do enough damage to the sternum and what's under it (heart).

Armor that stops rifle is usually made from the same material soft armor is with ceramic, steel and a couple of other heavier more rigid materials.
Did I mention that its heavy?
One of my tac vests has steel plates front and back. The plates alone are 14lb. I've another set that's composite and the weight is just under 10lb but they're thicker and bulkier.

My picks for armor are Point Blank and AR500 dot com. Point Blank has a line of hard armor called paraclete. Pretty good stuff.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 10:17:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Part II (because new accounts are limited to 2000 characters....LOL)

My suggestion is stick with concealable armor under clothing. Level II. Hire off duty police as visible security as another layer. Many of the churches in my neighborhood do this and also use them for parking/traffic. You will also need a security plan with specific people covering specific areas, a plan of just-in-cases so everyone knows what to do when 'it' goes down. Somebody designated as a first responder trained as EMT/paramedic, another for 'backup' etc. How you will deal with armed parishoners who aren't part of the security team. Lots of moving parts to a security plan but remember the plan is the important part....and no plan survives first contact.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 10:39:49 AM EDT
[#6]
OP, i'm the Director of Security for my church.  If you need any help, PM me.

Active Shooter situations, although HEAVILY publicized, are statistically rare.  However, you should most definitely prepare for an active shooter situation at your church.  As a Security Team, you need to be prepared for anything that will happen.  From experience, you'll deal more with transients, panhandlers, suspicious vehicles and people, and emotionally & mentally disturbed individuals (had one last Sunday night.)  Again, you need to be prepared for everything from unlocked doors to active shooters.  One of the first things you need to do is to come up with SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) and put together a Policy & Procedures manual.  Then, periodically train on that manual.  I have also taught our folks to be observant, to watch body language, and look for things that are outside of the norm.  Every church has a "baseline" - a standard way that everyone acts and everything looks.  After a while, you learn that baseline.  You can then spot people or items out of place.  For example, a person sprinting in from the parking lot 45 minutes after the service starts or a person wearing a winter jacket in the summer or a visitor carrying a bulky backpack are things that we quickly identified and investigated (those are all things we've had to deal with.)

There are things that you should also do first as a church, such as locking all unnecessary exterior doors, having one external entrance during services, perform a security assessment of your church property.  We have a mag lock system for our doors and a video surveliance system that we monitor (its a force multiplier.)  You also need good comms.  Spend the money and get an FCC license, and Kenwood or Icom radios and software & programming cable.  We had our radios and FCC license with 7 days.  We also wear the coiled tube style earpieces to keep our comms discrete.

I do encourage our team members to be armed.  As I tell them, if evil came to our church, are you going to respond with empty hands?  Also, keep in mind that your church's insurance company may or may not frown on armed church members performing security.  

Keep in mind that you have to walk a line between the church members and visitors that want heavily armed security, and the church members and visitors that don't see the need for security and can't believe anyone would bring a gun into God's house.  Yes, even now there are those people in your church.  Church security can be difficult because you have to balance security with being open and an inviting place to worship.

If you wear armor, I would recommend concealable armor.  But keep in mind, its hot and you're going to be outside a lot.  And, it may not stop rifle shots.  One thing too, in an active shooter situation, active shooters may first  target law enforcement personnel or any obviously uniformed security personnel.  The School Resource Officer was the first target of the Columbine shooters, but they couldn't find him because he was eating lunch in a different place.   A person with an external plate carrier will stand out and will become the first target.  Our team is 100% plain clothes.  However, after Texas, i've thought about having a couple of our team members geared up in our Security Room (a limited access room) ready to respond as a QRF.

Another thing is to think about how Security Team members wearing external plate carriers are going to be seen by responding law enforcement in the event of an active shooter situation.  If they are wearing plate carriers, they will be seen as threats until they can be determined not to be.  You don't want friendlies getting accidentally killed.

I've heard good things about the Banshee plate carriers.  I saw an add yesterday from a company called BULLETPROOF IT that is running a special on active shooter plate carriers, but I don't know anything about them or their products.

I apologize for straying from the topic, but body armor is just one piece of the big picture when it comes to church security.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 10:47:43 AM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
First off I think rifle plates are overkill for what you are describing . If you absolutely positively feel like you need hard armor I would not recomend steel. There are options in the speed plate market that are half an inch thick which is about the same as a steel plate with build up and will stop threats from an AR pattern rifle. A carrier like the beez  would work, as would carriers like the warrior assault systems CPC. If you do want plates and you think an AR is a credible threat those premiere plates will not stop the most common weight of bullet in an AR from the most common barrel length, M193 with a 16 inch barrel. What would be many more times as effective as one guy in armor is 2-3 armed deacons or church elders who shoot a lot that way the shooter would be facing several people from more angles than one guy who is shooting back. My church has events with the men's ministry where we go shooting and have fellowship.
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+1. Wearing armor all day is also uncomfortable and has detrimental effects on your back if you do it over a long period of time. I would recommend wearing concealable soft armor and possibly staging simple plate carriers with plates in a designated room.

ETA: dreiwhit definitely hit the nail on the head.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 1:04:09 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

ETA: dreiwhit definitely hit the nail on the head.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

ETA: dreiwhit definitely hit the nail on the head.
Thanks QuickReactions!

What would be many more times as effective as one guy in armor is 2-3 armed deacons or church elders who shoot a lot that way the shooter would be facing several people from more angles than one guy who is shooting back.
The key is to fight back - to resist.  Although there may be exceptions to the rule, Active Shooters aren't expecting resistance.  They expect to accomplish their mayhem without interruption.  In the active shooting situations i've studied, the key take away that stops the shooter or forces the shooter to change plans and/or kill themselves is active resistance, either by potential victims or by nearby law enforcement.

As part of my real world job, I have to take active shooter training.  The last training session I had, the LEO performing the training told us that the old "run, hide, fight" has been changed to put "fight" first.  He said they realized that "run, hide, fight" was creating a culture of victims and not helping to stop shooters

As I said above, active shooter situations are only one of the things you'll need to train for.

Edit:  Another thing to do is to identify and then integrate your church members with medical training into your team.  Not that they would be security, but they would be available to be called upon in the event of any situation with medical needs.  We have RNs and EMTs on my church's security team, and the RN is right working on organizing the rest of the church members with medical training into a loose medical team.  She told me her plans last Sunday, part of which involve setting up designed areas of the church as triage and casualty treatment areas in case of natural or man caused incidents.

Even if its nothing more than a cut finger or child falling down and skinning knees, its good to have medical help available.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 1:56:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for the great replies, I haven’t had a chance to read the longer ones in detail since I’m at work but will tonight.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 11:10:25 PM EDT
[#10]
Don't go anywhere you think you're going to need to wear rifle plates unless Uncle Sam is paying you to go.  In other words, rifle plates are overkill for church security and a very poor use of funds - they will be worn for 3 Sundays and abandoned by the 4th.  Concealable soft armor may make sense for the 1-3 individuals posted at the front door.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 11:37:45 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Kudos to your church for taking security seriously!
As others have said, body armor isn't comfortable. Wear it every day for a 13 hour shift, when its 115 degrees out and yer chest will smell like your feet LOL. You'll sweat and feel like a sausage in a double X small casing.
But once you get used to it, its not so bad LOL.

Level II armor stops most handgun threats. Level IIa is thinner, stops less. Level IIIA stops some rifle and level III/IV stops more rifle up to 308 and 30.06.
The higher the level the heavier/thicker it is.

Soft body armor generally is designed for handgun. You can get small trauma plated for the sternum 5x8" that do increase the protection but they're designed to reduce blunt trauma to the sternum. Even if the armor stops a bullet in that area the force can still do enough damage to the sternum and what's under it (heart).

Armor that stops rifle is usually made from the same material soft armor is with ceramic, steel and a couple of other heavier more rigid materials.
Did I mention that its heavy?
One of my tac vests has steel plates front and back. The plates alone are 14lb. I've another set that's composite and the weight is just under 10lb but they're thicker and bulkier.

My picks for armor are Point Blank and AR500 dot com. Point Blank has a line of hard armor called paraclete. Pretty good stuff.
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Unless I'm way off base here IIIA absolutely does not stop any rifle threat. You'll need III or better for that.

I've had the Ar500 and now own Paraclete PE plates they're good options.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 11:39:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Don't go anywhere you think you're going to need to wear rifle plates unless Uncle Sam is paying you to go.  In other words, rifle plates are overkill for church security and a very poor use of funds - they will be worn for 3 Sundays and abandoned by the 4th.  Concealable soft armor may make sense for the 1-3 individuals posted at the front door.
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Concealable soft armor is virtually useless for anything out of a rifle which is specifically what they're worried about.  I think a PC with III or IV plates in the pastors office is a good idea but yes a bit silly to patrol with at the church if that's what op is planning.

OP I'd get this:

http://rmadefense.com/product/level-iv-hard-armor-plate-model-1155-set/

https://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/catalog/product/view/id/505/s/low-vis-rig/category/17/
Link Posted: 11/9/2017 1:32:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Thank you everyone for replying.  I am following this thread as well.

This Sunday I am having a one on one with our pastor concerning security as well.

I would look at what needs to be done, what you want done, and what you can do.  Keep in mind there is no one size fits all in security, some ideas may over lap but you will need to modify for your church.

Right now we secure all entrances and have concealed carrying rovers.  That's it. No medical, no casualty collection points chosen, etc.  

As far as armor, it sucks, all of it.  I've worn plates and full kit down to a slash vast.  Decide what your threat is and go from there, what was the common weapon of choice in the last mass shootings?  Not saying that the weapon of choice is what you will come across, it might be some fuckstick thug with a hi-point in the parking lot.  Sorry to ramble, just throwing out some ideas.  Please post up anything else you guys come up with.

Look at DFNDR Armor as well.
Link Posted: 11/9/2017 11:02:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Please post up anything else you guys come up with.
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Just a couple more things:

- Unless you pay for law enforcement, you're going to be dealing with volunteers.  Realize that you are going to work with the people that the Lord brings you.  That means all different types of skills, talents and ages.  Match up their skills and abilities to the duties you have.  And when you deal with volunteers, stock up on a generous supply of patience pills!

- Don't assume that because you are paying for a LEO, or have LEOs on your team, you are getting a high speed low drag LEOs.  There are a variety of people in LE like there are in any other job.  BTW, I have two LEOs on my team.  One is a stand up guy and has the right mindset.  The other is a discipline problem, not showing up for shifts with no notice, not giving his location on the radio, doing as he pleases, etc.  I pair him with me because I don't want others to be frustrated by him.  I really need to have a sit down with him, but it wouldn't matter because he the type that knows it all........

- Use what works for your church and discard the rest.  And don't be afraid to change.  If something doesn't work, change.  I learned a long time ago that when the horse is dead, you don't beat it, you dismount.

- Operate on the 3 layers of security concept.  The first layer is your parking lot.  60% of all incidents start in the parking lots, and its the best place to stop them.  The next layer is your exterior entrances, to prevent people from coming in.  The last layer is the place where most people gather (sanctuary, fellowship hall, etc) - the places you need to prevent the bad guys from getting to.

- Remind your team members frequently that they are in this for the long haul.  Things aren't going to get better.  You don't want them burning out.  As one team member told me, Security is important but you still need to worship and be fed.
Link Posted: 11/12/2017 11:24:11 PM EDT
[#15]
dreiwhit,

I sent you an im on this, but any thoughts on resources for putting together a security team? I’m involved in finally putting together a security plan after pushing for one for a long while. Currently looking at Blue Sheepdog, Gatekerpers, and Active Response.

Thanks for the good info you’ve already shared.
Link Posted: 11/13/2017 12:00:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Update.  Talked to my pastor and I am going to get tasked with the current head of security to build a plan(s). We are a smaller church in a rougher area.  I will update with more info as time goes on if OP is ok with that.
Link Posted: 11/13/2017 1:47:46 AM EDT
[#17]
I will second the Beez combat system concealable carrier for "concealment". I've been using the one I got from CATI, and depending on attire and movements, it hides very well.  
A PE level III plate would serve well, but given that someone could come in with M855, then that goes out the window. The steel ones will cover a WIDE variety of threats, but be warned, look at the V50 or muzzle velocities of their M193 ratings. A lot of steel places say "We stop M193", but fail to disclose any velocity. Same with the companies who sell you 1/4" MIL-46100 and say it will stop M2AP :\ (only from a 30° angled hit). 

As mentioned anything is going to be uncomfortable and the heavier the plates, the more that becomes an concern.

Level IV ceramic plates would take care of just about everything under the sun, but for the price would be generally the most expensive, and heaviest option out there. RMA Defense has a 8lb level IV NIJ 06 Certified plate (as in they are listed on the NIJ compliance list), that they do sales on for like $110/plate. 
Link Posted: 11/13/2017 10:36:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
dreiwhit,

I sent you an im on this, but any thoughts on resources for putting together a security team? I’m involved in finally putting together a security plan after pushing for one for a long while. Currently looking at Blue Sheepdog, Gatekerpers, and Active Response.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
dreiwhit,

I sent you an im on this, but any thoughts on resources for putting together a security team? I’m involved in finally putting together a security plan after pushing for one for a long while. Currently looking at Blue Sheepdog, Gatekerpers, and Active Response.
Hi Vaquero,

I got your IM, as well as an IM from chR15  I'm not able to respond to the IMs right now because of technical reasons, but I will do so tonight.

Thanks for the good info you’ve already shared.
You're most welcome!  I'm glad that I could be of help!

For what its worth, when we set up our team - two years ago this month - there were few resources out there.  We ended up writing our own P&P manual / plan.  I ended up writing it in response to our team members asking "how do I handle this situation?" or "how should I have handled this situation?"  After I wrote it, my Pastor and I went back through it and modified some of the information.  Plus, we codified our normal way of operations - signing in, patrols, how to use the radios, being observant, substitute policy, etc.

Your plan/P&Ps will evolve over time as you learn more and add new capabilities to your Security Ministry.

I do subscribe to the email list from Sheepdog Church Security.  He has some really good information on there, including security assessments, setting up teams, active shooters, fire drills.  I haven't bought anything from him, but I have used some of the free information he provides.

More later.

Whit
Link Posted: 11/13/2017 2:24:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Let me try and sum up a few things for you if I may.

First thing is to assess your actual needs.  Someone mentioned drunks or obnoxious/disturbed people being more common than active shooters.  So you have a scale of likelihood of happening.  Then you have the consequences of not being prepared for whatever event is being considered.  So you have another scale of based on severity of the consequences of not being prepared.  An active shooter event might be considered "not very likely" to occur but would have "very drastic consequences" if you weren't prepared.  So by combining these two scales you would then prioritize your threats.

Once these threats are identified and rated, then you decide what is required to successfully interdict any threats to your congregation.  From here you establish a Task List which lists all required skill sets to accomplish your mission.  Then you establish a training plan in order to get your peeps up to speed, to a standard.

At this point you would establish an SOP, which would list all required weapons, clothing and equipment.  At this point, based on your threat assessment, you would purchase your gear, including any body armor you might require.  I would suggest going to any good body armor website and reading up on the various threat levels, and what they will or will not stop.  Cross this with your threat assessment to determine your needs.

Some additional thoughts.  When you discuss body armor, it's a cross between protection and mobility.  If you are highly mobile, that is some protection, in and of itself.  Between being highly mobile (moving fast to respond) and being able to shoot fast and accurately, you would be able to quickly respond to any active shooter event.  That being said, having the protection for the likely threat level is also very good, especially if you are basically "static", as in providing point security for a congregation.   Some folks will opt for the most armor they can wear.  Others will try and find a balance between protection and mobility.  This is a personal decision for your group.

As an example, if your guys wore soft armor Level IIIa vests.  You would then be covered for most common threats, such as handguns, and shotguns.  This level would cover most likely events.  If your guys had armor vests that had pockets for a hard armor insert, then you would have the option of adding a Level III+ hard plate, of say 8 x 10.  This would give some rifle protection, in critical areas.  This level would cover most likely events, and partially cover an active shooter event with some common rifle calibers.  If you guys went up to hard plates, of say Level III+ of 10 x 12 size, then you would have pretty good pro for active shooter events with common rifle calibers.  If you guys went up to Level IV plates, then you would have pro for active shooter events with "sniper" caliber rounds of greater velocity and penetration.  All of these options in low profile carriers beneath clothing layers.  

Then don't forget the other side of the equation.  Have folks spun up on treating gunshot wounds as well.
Link Posted: 11/14/2017 9:13:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 11/15/2017 11:08:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Tag for later, but I wouldn't bother with plates for church security.
Link Posted: 11/16/2017 2:12:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Just came across this thread as well.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/active-shooters-in-church-setting/17-690863/
Link Posted: 11/16/2017 7:06:13 AM EDT
[#23]
A lot of this depends on your church. I've seen videos of 5000+ person churches with monitored security cameras, armed security, dozens of people involved every week, etc., but you're not going to have a 50-person security team if you've got a 30 person one-room church (like the First Baptist in Sutherland Springs).

Armor really doesn't make a lot of sense. "Concealable" armor is rarely concealable, and in church attire there's no way you're hiding rifle plates without looking like the pillsbury dough boy, and putting on armor is just going to slow down your response time.

For a ~250 person church, having several designated people carrying concealed is probably your best bet. Old people and kids (who are the majority at every church I've ever been to) don't evacuate fast, so you'll probably need people rushing to stop the shooter, followed by people with medical training rushing to help the wounded. The medical part may not be sexy, but it's probably where you'll need the most people.

https://adventistrisk.org/en-US/Safety-Resources/Safety-Sabbath might be a useful resource. The Texas Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists (a couple hundred churches) has mandated that all of their churches conduct a drill (during regular services with the full congregation) by the end of March. While I don't think it's listed in any of the online sites, their official policy on weapons is basically "keep it concealed"; the concern is that visitors seeing open carry may scare people into not coming.

Whatever you decide, keep in mind the purpose of a church is to bring people (including anti-gun liberals) to Christ, not scare them away.
Link Posted: 11/22/2017 11:22:21 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
You should consider trauma training and equipment. It's cheap, easy to use and easy to incorporate into training. There lots of internet BS experts and garbage gear so research carefully.
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This.  Don’t buy armor for rifles and not have trauma training and tourniquets.  Train the whole congregation, they should know it too.

Personally, I think soft armor on guys that are paired off around the only entrance would work best.  The earlier comment was correct- you may not know it now, but get too tactical and some people will out themselves as the “can’t happen here” types.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 12:20:44 AM EDT
[#25]
https://atoday.org/bullets-fired-at-adventist-church-in-gaithersburg-md/

Just sharing so others can be aware. Church building shot on two different occasions, after-hours in the middle of the week. Supposedly it's a "black church".

I'm not sure if it's a legit or fake news.
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 10:19:04 AM EDT
[#26]
BCS and SAPIsAttachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 9:34:40 PM EDT
[#27]
I lead up our church's emergency team.

Like others have said, armor for all practical reasons probably isn't something to seriously consider.  Concealable will get ditched pretty quick, and most people aren't in favor (for good reason) of making their church look like an armed garrison - so external carriers are out.

Just like any other kind of preparedness issues - plan what is most likely to happen first, then go from there.

Have a plan for fire/weather.

If your church has kids who come without their parents on a bus/van ministry, be meticulous about having all of their current contact info, secondary contacts, and a roster of who is on the bus/van each time it goes out.

Have background checks for everyone who comes into contact with kids, do the two deep rule with kids at all times.

Have a well stocked medical kit.  Yes have tourniquets & Israeli bandages - but have many more regular bandages, Neosporin, cold compresses, & what not on hand.  Our #1 injury is kids running into each other during game times on Wednesday nights, followed by little old ladies tripping over their own feet.  Have someone around who knows how to use them.  Its a good bet that your church has an RN or LPN or something in it.

Have a plan of action for when things go sideways.  Know who calls 911.  Know who gathers the information of those affected.  Know who does what to help those affected.  Know who the spokesman is who provides the "one voice" to EMTs and police.  Make sure that they're able to process everything and explain it well so first responders know whats going on.

As far as active shooter security is concerned:

Build good relationships with your area first responders.  I know guys who are EMTs, fire, and cops - those relationships range from professional to decent friendships & they pay off.  One good friend of mine on our PD has a habit of giving me a heads up when potential problems pop up.

Keep an eye on the parking lot.  Cameras, roving security guys, just someone drinking coffee outside the door - whatever.  Just keep an eye on what's going on out there.

A church member needs to be at every door that's unlocked.  That should be common sense just so someone can be there to greet the people coming in.  But it also lets you know if a problem comes through - or even better, lock down the door as a problem approaches.  Also, limit the number of doors that are unlocked to as few as possible.  Doors that will let people out are cool - doors that let people in need to have eyes on them.

My "muscle" guy - a retired cop, current rancher - sits at the main entrance to our sanctuary.  He's the tip of the spear if someone makes it in high on the crazy.  Others are seated around the sanctuary to back up as needed.

Don't forget the other 6 days of the week.  We're pretty involved in our community which means that our doors are open for some big gathering just about every day.  My emergency people can't be there for most of it, but keeping an eye on the doors will stop a lot of problems for them too.  Office staff keeps things tight during the week.  Doors are generally open, but can be locked easily & we have a door bell to give the secretary the heads up on when people are around.

Now, my people are all volunteers and I can't say that we train like HSLD types, but this has worked well for us.  We've had to deal with everything from the wrong parent trying to pick up kids, people trying to break into cars, laid back and pushy panhandlers, homeless that just wander in for a meal, a van full of kids getting rear ended on the highway, and a number of small injuries.  Every time one of those incidents puts us to the point of having to contact insurance or first responders has always resulted in them saying how impressed they are with what we're doing.

OK, that's all I can think of after tryptophan day.  
Link Posted: 11/23/2017 9:40:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Check out Crye LVS. A buddy of mine has one and I have worn it (not deployed) and it was nice as fuck. I also have a Crye JPC and it is very minimalist. I could conceivably be worn under a loose fitting dress shirt.

Dont have much info on civilian LEO armor, so just offering what I know.
Link Posted: 11/24/2017 9:56:16 PM EDT
[#29]
@JAD762 Thanks for sharing.

Roughly how big is your church? Sounds like your security requires a significant number of people (that might not be available at small churches). Just curious.
Link Posted: 11/24/2017 10:52:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
@JAD762 Thanks for sharing.

Roughly how big is your church? Sounds like your security requires a significant number of people (that might not be available at small churches). Just curious.
View Quote
We only run 130 on a given Sunday.  I have 3 or 4 dedicated team members, admin & greeter ministries are used to support the work.

Our church layout has one bank of 4 doors that allows entry & exit and 3 more emergency doors that allow for exit only.

On a typical Sunday:

Our greeters man the front doors where people come in.  A part of our hospitality philosophy is that no one touches a door & everyone gets a welcome.  When a new family stops in, the greeters usually direct them to me so we can visit for a moment or two (I have the great privilege of being our church's pastor, so I like to visit with new folks).

All the while our retired cop hangs out in the foyer drinking coffee & talking to people - and keeping an eye on the parking lot & what's going on in general.  He usually hangs out there until worship starts, then stands with me next to the main door.  During the sermon time, he sits with his wife near the door.

He usually mills around visiting until most are gone, and then heads out with his wife for lunch.

And that is our typical Sunday.  It doesn't take a lot of manpower, it just takes a plan.  I had basically the same plan at my last church of 70 people.

The last major problem we had was about a year ago when our van, full of kids, got rear ended on the highway in front of our church on a Wednesday night.  Driver contacted us, I grabbed one our guys and our RN (my wife) and headed up there.  When I got there the kids were already out of the van & a quick visual showed no obvious injuries.  While my wife checked kids over, I asked if anyone called 911 & got a blank stare so I called and got police/EMTs there.  While that was going on our admins were pulling the paperwork of everyone on the van, driver background, insurance & what not.  Once police & EMT got there I was the "one voice" that processed all the information to answer whatever questions they had.  When we got everyone transported to the church parents had already been called & were in route to get their kids.

So for that we had 1 admin, 2 team members, and 1 guy I grabbed on the way out (in addition to the driver and safety rider).

You don't need a lot of people, you just need a plan.
Link Posted: 11/24/2017 11:08:46 PM EDT
[#31]
I recommend this to everyone because I absolutely love it. Mayflower low profile carrier. As to steel plates, ask yourself how much is your life worth. The second thing to ask yourself is, do you hate your back that much that you want 20 lbs in steel hanging off your shoulders?

Link Posted: 11/24/2017 11:38:33 PM EDT
[#32]
I'd go with a low profile PC such as the Beez, which is also a great value, BTW, and some Level IIIA soft armor.

Considering the risks, I think pistol armor being worn versus rifle armor not being worn because it's cumbersome is the way to go.
Link Posted: 11/25/2017 3:29:42 PM EDT
[#33]
I'd suggest training and defensive weapons/medical equipment before worrying about armor. I'd hazard a guess based on previous active shooter events that if multiple people confront the BG during his rampage, he will either try to escape or shoot himself. They rarely seem to continue to fight to the death when confronted by armed people and while I wouldn't necessarily count on that being the case, the likelihood of it being true is higher than someone walking in equipped like the North Hollywood bank robbers.

Having the appropriate first aid training and equipment to keep casualties alive until EMS can take over is more important than body armor, in my opinion. Even if it's "tactical" medicine, those skills don't ONLY apply to that specific environment, I've used TCCC methods on everything from guys with multiple gunshot wounds to the torso, on down to crash victims or scenes where there were multiple victims.

My vote is conducting some type of Stop the Bleed training for your entire church and label it as a community event that would benefit them all in their daily lives. It's not untrue (never know when you might come across a car accident or some other scenario where people are injured, it doesn't have to be a mass shooter). You could add additional info/training for those on your security team, and have the church purchase a bleeding control station of some sort (doesn't have to be that manufacturer or the wall mounted expensive version, but you see what comes in it).

As for armor - wearing rifle plates for every service would suck. I could see maybe IIIA soft armor, but I'd have plates stashed in a few places out of sight if I had to have them in a church environment. YMMV but the risk/benefit ratio isn't there for me to wear 20+ pounds of rifle plates under a suit...

Also, JAD762 is on point with the basic emergency preparedness. Sometimes we get so caught up with the active shooter/end of the world type scenarios we find ourselves under-prepared for Little Johnny's mom forgetting to pick him up from class/Bible study or what have you. Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.

You may also consider asking people what suggestions they have, if any, to make the church better/safer, and ask people what special skills they have, if any. You might be surprised at the answers you get (I've missed some really obvious shit and had it brought up like this in other scenarios) and just because someone suggests it, doesn't mean you have to implement their ideas if they won't work for you.
Link Posted: 11/25/2017 3:40:05 PM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 11/25/2017 10:52:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

We only run 130 on a given Sunday.  I have 3 or 4 dedicated team members, admin & greeter ministries are used to support the work.

Our church layout has one bank of 4 doors that allows entry & exit and 3 more emergency doors that allow for exit only.

On a typical Sunday:

Our greeters man the front doors where people come in.  A part of our hospitality philosophy is that no one touches a door & everyone gets a welcome.  When a new family stops in, the greeters usually direct them to me so we can visit for a moment or two (I have the great privilege of being our church's pastor, so I like to visit with new folks).

All the while our retired cop hangs out in the foyer drinking coffee & talking to people - and keeping an eye on the parking lot & what's going on in general.  He usually hangs out there until worship starts, then stands with me next to the main door.  During the sermon time, he sits with his wife near the door.

He usually mills around visiting until most are gone, and then heads out with his wife for lunch.

And that is our typical Sunday.  It doesn't take a lot of manpower, it just takes a plan.  I had basically the same plan at my last church of 70 people.

The last major problem we had was about a year ago when our van, full of kids, got rear ended on the highway in front of our church on a Wednesday night.  Driver contacted us, I grabbed one our guys and our RN (my wife) and headed up there.  When I got there the kids were already out of the van & a quick visual showed no obvious injuries.  While my wife checked kids over, I asked if anyone called 911 & got a blank stare so I called and got police/EMTs there.  While that was going on our admins were pulling the paperwork of everyone on the van, driver background, insurance & what not.  Once police & EMT got there I was the "one voice" that processed all the information to answer whatever questions they had.  When we got everyone transported to the church parents had already been called & were in route to get their kids.

So for that we had 1 admin, 2 team members, and 1 guy I grabbed on the way out (in addition to the driver and safety rider).

You don't need a lot of people, you just need a plan.
View Quote
From what you describe, it sounds like you've got a small team without a lot of overlap and redundancy (i.e., everyone's on duty every week with no time off). How long have you been doing that, and any issues with burn-out yet?

My church (350 adult members on the books...typically 220 to 270 people, including kids, attending each week), and we have huge problems with volunteers burning out. Two year appointments and it seems like we have maybe 60% of volunteers make it through a full two years.
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 7:29:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Fwiw the plate carrier I posted above with large SAPIs weighs 12lbs
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 8:22:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What church in SC OP?
View Quote
I would not provide that information OP.

Additionally, non-lethal solutions and methods of restraint should be considered as the situation dictates.
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 11:52:20 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Concealable soft armor is virtually useless for anything out of a rifle which is specifically what they're worried about.  I think a PC with III or IV plates in the pastors office is a good idea but yes a bit silly to patrol with at the church if that's what op is planning.

OP I'd get this:

http://rmadefense.com/product/level-iv-hard-armor-plate-model-1155-set/

https://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/catalog/product/view/id/505/s/low-vis-rig/category/17/
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't go anywhere you think you're going to need to wear rifle plates unless Uncle Sam is paying you to go.  In other words, rifle plates are overkill for church security and a very poor use of funds - they will be worn for 3 Sundays and abandoned by the 4th.  Concealable soft armor may make sense for the 1-3 individuals posted at the front door.
Concealable soft armor is virtually useless for anything out of a rifle which is specifically what they're worried about.  I think a PC with III or IV plates in the pastors office is a good idea but yes a bit silly to patrol with at the church if that's what op is planning.

OP I'd get this:

http://rmadefense.com/product/level-iv-hard-armor-plate-model-1155-set/

https://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/catalog/product/view/id/505/s/low-vis-rig/category/17/
He said concealable...
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 1:11:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Chase Tactical has the Warrior Assault Systems low pro PC for $109.

Stick some soft LVL-III armor in that badboy and call it good.
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 1:21:52 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 4:17:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
From what you describe, it sounds like you've got a small team without a lot of overlap and redundancy (i.e., everyone's on duty every week with no time off). How long have you been doing that, and any issues with burn-out yet?

My church (350 adult members on the books...typically 220 to 270 people, including kids, attending each week), and we have huge problems with volunteers burning out. Two year appointments and it seems like we have maybe 60% of volunteers make it through a full two years.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

We only run 130 on a given Sunday.  I have 3 or 4 dedicated team members, admin & greeter ministries are used to support the work.

Our church layout has one bank of 4 doors that allows entry & exit and 3 more emergency doors that allow for exit only.

On a typical Sunday:

Our greeters man the front doors where people come in.  A part of our hospitality philosophy is that no one touches a door & everyone gets a welcome.  When a new family stops in, the greeters usually direct them to me so we can visit for a moment or two (I have the great privilege of being our church's pastor, so I like to visit with new folks).

All the while our retired cop hangs out in the foyer drinking coffee & talking to people - and keeping an eye on the parking lot & what's going on in general.  He usually hangs out there until worship starts, then stands with me next to the main door.  During the sermon time, he sits with his wife near the door.

He usually mills around visiting until most are gone, and then heads out with his wife for lunch.

And that is our typical Sunday.  It doesn't take a lot of manpower, it just takes a plan.  I had basically the same plan at my last church of 70 people.

The last major problem we had was about a year ago when our van, full of kids, got rear ended on the highway in front of our church on a Wednesday night.  Driver contacted us, I grabbed one our guys and our RN (my wife) and headed up there.  When I got there the kids were already out of the van & a quick visual showed no obvious injuries.  While my wife checked kids over, I asked if anyone called 911 & got a blank stare so I called and got police/EMTs there.  While that was going on our admins were pulling the paperwork of everyone on the van, driver background, insurance & what not.  Once police & EMT got there I was the "one voice" that processed all the information to answer whatever questions they had.  When we got everyone transported to the church parents had already been called & were in route to get their kids.

So for that we had 1 admin, 2 team members, and 1 guy I grabbed on the way out (in addition to the driver and safety rider).

You don't need a lot of people, you just need a plan.
From what you describe, it sounds like you've got a small team without a lot of overlap and redundancy (i.e., everyone's on duty every week with no time off). How long have you been doing that, and any issues with burn-out yet?

My church (350 adult members on the books...typically 220 to 270 people, including kids, attending each week), and we have huge problems with volunteers burning out. Two year appointments and it seems like we have maybe 60% of volunteers make it through a full two years.
We've been following this plan for 4 years. Most of the same people were doing what was basically a less organized version of the plan prior to that.

We have a very low attrition rate among our volunteers across the board. That does reflect the church culture we've built. We strive for a 100% member mobilization for service of some kind (which we fall short of, but you've got to aim at something) and reinforce that principle on a regular basis. We also deploy our volunteers wisely.

Our security people are pretty dedicated. They would be there every Sunday anyway, so it's not putting them out. When they do miss, we cope the best we can. People on the team bring their own specialities so we don't have much training time invested in them. So it works well for us.

Every church is different & needs to build a plan that's centered on its specific needs. For bigger churches that will certainly mean bigger groups & better organization.

What we do works well for us. I wont say that our plan is flawless or that there aren't better plans out there, but it does work well for our context.
Link Posted: 11/26/2017 4:21:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have steel plates in my cellar somewhere. No way would I pass out steel plates to a bunch of random dudes at church, that's like wearing dumbells around. I know there was a recent shooting with a rifle, but are guys really going to suit up with plates every Sunday for every mass? Some other guy in gd claims that they have a bunch of guys in an adjacent building all kitted up.

In everything in life you have to do some risk analysis. You could buy an electric cpr doohickey thing and maybe be more likely to use that than kit up a bunch of guys like they're going on a raid with Blackwater. I don't know, I suppose like after 9-11 there's a certain amount of instilling confidence and fighting fear.

Good luck.

edit good point someone else had about first aid supplies
View Quote
I've seen that.

Something tells me he's posting from under a bridge.
Link Posted: 11/27/2017 8:47:14 AM EDT
[#43]
IMO early warning and multiple church members armed with CCWs will be more effective and realistic than one heavily armed swat looking guy. The early warning can be a camera system or simple a "greeter" at the front door who looks over the parking look for possible issues, maybe someone they don't recognize or someone who is fiddling with items in their trunk. If they feel there is a possible issue they go and get the handful of men/women who are armed who sit at the back of the church who can quickly respond. Which might involve confronting the person or if they see a armed person it might be securing all of the doors, calling 911 and notifying everyone in the church of the situation. I think it's important to keep security at a church low profile, it is a place of peace and worship.
Link Posted: 11/27/2017 11:24:20 AM EDT
[#44]
A couple of things to add:

Unless you are paying for security, you're going to have to rely on volunteers.  I tell our volunteers at every training session to keep in mind that we are in this for the long haul.  Church security is not a temporary need.  The world is not getting better, and we're going to need church security more and more in the future.  I try to keep people from burning out by actively recruiting and trying to build up a large team.  We have 38 people on our team, out of a church membership of around @380.   I also schedule them for patrol duty no more than twice a month and an additional duty on watch in the Sanctuary (they can still worship, they just listen to the radio and are available as a last resort or first responder.)  I also make sure its a worship service and a Sunday School, for example, so they have plenty of time available to worship.  I still remember the words that one team member (also a PD SWAT LT) told me "Security is important, but you still need to be fed."  Make sure your folks have time to worship and Bible study.

Regarding folks in plate carriers, or wearing uniforms, the Columbine killers made their School Resource Officer the first target.  They went to the place he normally ate lunch to kill him first.  However, he was eating somewhere else that particular day.  Uniformed personnel (even law enforcement) or folks wearing plate carriers will become the first targets of anyone attempting to do harm.  Make sure your folks dress to blend in with the rest of the church members.
Link Posted: 11/27/2017 11:41:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

He said concealable...
View Quote
Ah. Not a ton of options there for rifle plates under a suit jacket.

IIIA under the jacket and a couple overt PCs in the office would be my choice.
Link Posted: 11/28/2017 7:49:42 AM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 11/29/2017 6:47:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I still remember the words that one team member (also a PD SWAT LT) told me "Security is important, but you still need to be fed."  Make sure your folks have time to worship and Bible study.
View Quote
Or find a volunteer who doesn't have that need.  I know us scary atheists are considered some of the most hated in America only barely being beat out by Muslims, but even I'd be willing to stand up for your rights to worship as you please without outside influence from those who would see you dead, even if that meant standing guard over your place of worship.
Link Posted: 11/29/2017 11:03:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Or find a volunteer who doesn't have that need.  I know us scary atheists are considered some of the most hated in America only barely being beat out by Muslims, but even I'd be willing to stand up for your rights to worship as you please without outside influence from those who would see you dead, even if that meant standing guard over your place of worship.
View Quote
So you're volunteering to stand guard, from 7 AM when the breakfast cooks show up until midnight when the last mass finishes, EVERY Sunday, completely unpaid?

Call it what you want, but everyone (including preachers) needs a day off to relax occasionally, and depriving people of that causes burnout.
Link Posted: 11/30/2017 10:35:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So you're volunteering to stand guard, from 7 AM when the breakfast cooks show up until midnight when the last mass finishes, EVERY Sunday, completely unpaid?

Call it what you want, but everyone (including preachers) needs a day off to relax occasionally, and depriving people of that causes burnout.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Or find a volunteer who doesn't have that need.  I know us scary atheists are considered some of the most hated in America only barely being beat out by Muslims, but even I'd be willing to stand up for your rights to worship as you please without outside influence from those who would see you dead, even if that meant standing guard over your place of worship.
So you're volunteering to stand guard, from 7 AM when the breakfast cooks show up until midnight when the last mass finishes, EVERY Sunday, completely unpaid?

Call it what you want, but everyone (including preachers) needs a day off to relax occasionally, and depriving people of that causes burnout.

Not only did he not say that, you are assuming every church is open until midnight.
Link Posted: 11/30/2017 3:47:51 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:Call it what you want, but everyone (including preachers) needs a day off to relax occasionally, and depriving people of that causes burnout.
View Quote
FWIW, at the end of last year, I figured out how many man hours my church's security team worked.  Man hours being defined as one person, per hour.  I don't have the exact figure handy, but it was around 1300 man hours over the course of one year.  That included our two Sunday morning services, Sunday School, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service and special events.

If you have a volunteer security team, you have to keep them from burning out.  One of the reason that my church's original, pre 2015 security team failed was that most of the labor was falling on just a couple of individuals.  They got tired of it, quit and the team folded.  You need to have a large group of volunteers so that folks aren't spending their entire time at church working security.

I also make it a point to talk with the members of the security team.  If there is a problem, it gets addressed quickly.  I had one member who was so frustrated he came to me and told me he was quitting.  When I spoke to him, he brought up the problem, and it was addressed.  He stayed on the team.

One thing to remember is to not bite off too much too soon.  Otherwise known as "you can't do it all."  Manage risk by concentrating your efforts on the services that would be the most inviting to anyone who would wish to do harm.  You can always add additional duties later after your team grows.

One more thing:  If you church security team is a volunteer team, do not let it be run as a sloppy, slapdash organization.  You need to be as professional as you can be.  I don't mean having folks snap to attention and salute, but you need to make sure the people in charge are high speed individuals - organizations tend to adopt the characteristics of their leaders.  You don't need to be anal, but you do need to insist that your team conduct themselves properly and follow procedures.  Church security is a TEAM, not a bunch of individuals.  Its too important not to be a team.  But, you also need to remember that when you are dealing with volunteers, you have to take your patience pills.  Also, keep the big picture in mind - for example, the church was protected.  And not that they only made two patrols instead of three on their shift.
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