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Posted: 3/5/2006 10:38:00 AM EDT
I haven't decided on which way to go. For a basic carbine class, with some pistol transitioning.

So, 4-5 carbine mags, 4-5 pistol mags, and thats about it. still looking for the proper belt and dump pouch to evenly distribute weight on the belt.

I like the simplicity and price of the SKD eagle chest rig, but I also the idea of running everything off of the belt.

I guess I need to attend gear 101. I just want to keep it as simple as possible, but as quality as possible.

pics/reviews would help, I have been looking around and seeing the pictures of what people are running, so I got an idea of whats out there. Just need some beginners advice..
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:27:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:32:14 PM EDT
I'd reccomend trying it with just a belt rig first (pistol, pistol mags, 2-4 rifle mags, flashlight holder). I haven't had a need for a dump pouch in basic carbine training.

After you take the class, then you can decide on the chest rig.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:17:17 PM EDT
appreciate it fellas.

This isn't my first class, but it is my first time taking a class with EAG.

Mission is not to look cool, but be able to learn as mch as I can without holding up the class with gear issues.

I saw a nice setup in the pic thread with a duty belt, with suspenders, with multiple magazines hanging off the belt.

With a belt rig, pistol magazines would have to go almost in the 12 o'clock, position?

With the carbine mags at the 2 (cross draw?), then the 11/10/9 positions? That make sense?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:21:11 PM EDT
4 or 5 rifle mags and 4 pistols mags on a belt is going to be quite heavy, it will need suspenders for sure. Train with what you will grab when you need the rifle.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 1:06:10 AM EDT
Even if you go with a kool kidz chest rig, you'll still want one on your belt in an open top carrier as your "go to" mag for speedy reloads.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:25:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 11:42:20 AM EDT by GetDown_M4A3]
Pistol mags should be on your weak side as close to the front/center buckle (12 o-clock) of the belt as possible anyway, so yes for those. Rifle mags should also be on your weak side, 9/10 o-clock positions (try finding something that'll hold two mags in each pocket), so 4 mags will be on the left. Weak hand gets to those areas of your body quicker and easier in order to grab a reload, especially when you've got a rifle to manipulate. Anyway, that's the way I've been taught, but, of course, sometimes you just can't fit the gear there, so find what works and practice with it.

My belt rig has just two rifle mag pouches on them, as that keeps the profile low. I keep them stocked with 30rd mags, but whenever I put on my chest rig, I put 20rd mags in those pockets to keep them low and clear of the chest rig. I can also always add magazines to my pant pockets (5.11 rear pockets work great for this).

ETA... Here are two pics I found of my belt rig. In this setup, I have a 30rd mag on my left and a 20rd mag (to demonstrate height difference) in the pouch just to the right of the belt buckle, due to the presence of the dump pouch.




Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:18:25 AM EDT
Start with a belt rig.
The 1st/2nd/3rd line thing might work of soldiers 90% of the time, but when you're on your own, you have to make the choice.

I opted out of a 2nd line chest rig (for now) because my needs don't require it.
I put everything, including a two-mag leg pouch for my AR mags. That gives me three mags, ready to go. It's also a little more discrete and much easier to work with.

If you want a 2nd line/chest rig later on, you won't have wasted the money.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:18:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GetDown_M4A3:
Pistol mags should be on your weak side as close to the front/center buckle (12 o-clock) of the belt as possible anyway, so yes for those. Rifle mags should also be on your weak side, 9/10 o-clock positions (try finding something that'll hold two mags in each pocket), so 4 mags will be on the left. Weak hand gets to those areas of your body quicker and easier in order to grab a reload, especially when you've got a rifle to manipulate. Anyway, that's the way I've been taught, but, of course, sometimes you just can't fit the gear there, so find what works and practice with it.



I leave my pistol mags where I have them for daily carry (where you put your rifle mags). When I'm shooting the rifle, those mags go forward of the pistol mags (where you put you pistol mags).
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:23:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 10:32:43 AM EDT by chromeluv]
i like the idea of a just the following:

I already have a safariland 6004 for my 1911, strong side
on weak side leg, drop leg system for 30round mags
on weak side belt, 10/11 o'clock, pistol mags

all held by a strong belt obviously and suspenders (riggers or wilderness)


ETA: forgot suspenders
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:23:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GetDown_M4A3:
Pistol mags should be on your weak side as close to the front/center buckle (12 o-clock) of the belt as possible anyway, so yes for those. Rifle mags should also be on your weak side, 9/10 o-clock positions (try finding something that'll hold two mags in each pocket), so 4 mags will be on the left. Weak hand gets to those areas of your body quicker and easier in order to grab a reload, especially when you've got a rifle to manipulate. Anyway, that's the way I've been taught, but, of course, sometimes you just can't fit the gear there, so find what works and practice with it.



This would depend on your previous training. With my training my pistol mags are at 8:30/9:00 as that's where I'd wear them CCW. So even if I had pistol mags at 12:00 I'd reach to the wrong place under stress. My Rifle mags are in front of my pistol mags on a belt and behind them too for tac loads. My tac loads for the rifle are between 6:00 and 8:00. Then I have 1 pistol mag on my strong side incase I lose the use on my weak side arm/ hand.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:24:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 3:33:56 PM EDT by GetDown_M4A3]
Yep, that's why I noted it as per my prior training. The reasoning being that the shortest distance your reloading hand has to travel from your handgun to your magazine puts the reload at the belt buckle. For CCW, if you're unable to keep magazines at that location, then you have to train for the concealed position. In my case, I typically just conceal with a t-shirt, so I keep my mags just next to the belt buckle on both my CCW rig and tac rig.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:52:20 AM EDT
I disagree with the belt rig advice. A chest rig holds more gear, is more affordable, is easier to don and easier to work with.

For that matter, it can also be worn low around the belt if that is where you like your gear, in fact what is a belt rig w/suspenders really but a skinny chest rig with no space that is worn low around the waist and has about six separate parts?

To get ready for class, I just pick up my chest rig and put it over my head like I would a t-shirt and snap the buckle in back. Done. To put on a belt rig, first I have to put on all the belt pouches and holster (and hope they are snap on/velcro so I don't have to remove the belt to do it). Then I attach my drop leg rig. Then I attach the suspenders that I need in order to hold up all that gear.

I do believe in training like you plan to fight. That is why I have a chest rig; because in the event I have to fight with a rifle I won't have time to put on my belt, attach pouches, snap on drop-leg pouches, attach suspenders, etc. I also won't be walking around with all that stuff on in normal everyday life either. A chest rig can be kept ready to go and can go on in a few seconds.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:58:48 AM EDT
also a good point..
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:20:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 10:21:15 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
TonyF did make a good point about "field testing" that I did not consider. I have several ranges where I can practice much like you can in a formal training class, so I can iron out gear prior to class. If you don't have that then a chest rig may be a little harder to sort out than a belt rig. Not insurmountable; but it may require more thought.

Having said that, you can sort out a lot of that stuff at home. Try some jumping jacks in whatever gear you decide to use. This will give you a pretty good idea of spots that are going to chafe and gear that will flop excessively during movement. It will also demonstrate gear that is prone to falling out or coming loose.

Try shouldering your rifle with whatever rig you plan to use. You may find that shoulder straps or suspenders interfere with what you are used to using. Try standing, kneeling, sitting, prone and see how long you can stay in that position comfortably. Consider what the needs of the class are and ask whether the rig interferes with any of those requirements.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:15:28 AM EDT
Except for my CCW rig I don't thread my belt rig through my belt loops. I either use a velcro under belt in my pants loops or use old school belt keepers. So to don my belt rig I put it on compleet then strap the drop loops around my legs if using them. I also run suspenders with my belt rig so I don't have to tighten the belt as tight. If I need to carry more stuff then I add a plate carrier with its pouches over my belt rig.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:25:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 1:33:00 PM EDT by eggrolly]
Some tenets to bear in mind

In designing a layout for wear, exercise common sense and day-day carry mentality.

suspenders should NOT load bearing, they are there to prevent your belt from falling down when pressing your range of motion.

a belt should be SNUG, but not TIGHT

majority of borne equipment should be reach accessible by your WEAK hand

if your belt is slipping down from the weight - reassess your packing, and distribution of load.

you are NOT Batman, so chances are REALLY good you do not *NEED* more than 1-2 AR mags and 2 pistol mag pouches on a belt

remember it is NOT a fashion show, do not buy gear b/c it looks cool, buy it because it suits *YOUR* needs, not someone elses.

More to Come
EGG
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:33:24 PM EDT
in reference to the pics: is there a way you could attach more magazine to the belt? With enough comfort?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:44:56 PM EDT
The pouches I have are single-mag pouches, Double mag pouches would, obviously, double the capacity at those points. I suffer from being a 32" waist. I haven't added more mags, as my belt rig is setup as a 1st line system, and I use a chest rig for 2nd line.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:52:53 PM EDT
i like your setup..its straight to the point..

I know you can put yourself into some grey areas when you start hanging the double AR mag pouches off of your belt..

i guess for simplicity, muscle memory, and not holding the learning curve at class a simple belt rig, 2 mags per weapon on a belt, and extras in the dump pouch..?

All attached to the external belt, while having the 6004 attached to my internal, riggers belt..

So to dump all the extra gear, I could remove my belt but still have my primary weapons..

am I getting warmer?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:00:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:13:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 4:16:38 PM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
i guess for simplicity, muscle memory, and not holding the learning curve at class a simple belt rig, 2 mags per weapon on a belt, and extras in the dump pouch..?



If you can get by without holding up the class on 2 on-body mags per weapon, then a belt rig becomes a lot more reasonable and easier to do. If you need the 4-5 mags per weapon, pistol, and dump pouch yjay you stated in the initial post then I don't see how it can be done using just a belt unless you add a drop leg mag pouch and suspenders.

At 4-5 mags per weapon, I think the chest rig has a big advantage. If you can step off the line and grab two loaded mags from the bench, then a belt rig will probably do you just fine.


remember it is NOT a fashion show, do not buy gear b/c it looks cool


Hey, if you had seen my nightime response kit of AR, chest rig, and boxers, there would be no question that it isn't about looking cool
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:25:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 4:31:56 PM EDT by chromeluv]
I think this makes more sense than anything....







The ALL NEW Patrol Bandoleer was specifically designed with ease of use in mind. Simply throw it over your shoulder and go. Or, for a more secure carry utilize the belt loop located on the back of the main body. The PB-M4/4-M9/2-LE gives you quick access to 4 extra M4 mags and 2 M9 pistol mags that are always within easy reach.

Features:
••• Versatile carry options.
••• Padded body for comfortable carry.
••• Eagle's SecureTack™ stitching at all stress points.
••• Elastic around M4 mag pockets to hold mags securely in place.
••• Grommets in pockets for drainage.
••• Lifetime guarantee.
••• Made in the USA.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 5:43:15 PM EDT
UM WHY does it make sense?

I am not knocking the PB, but why do you think it makes sense?

Link Posted: 3/8/2006 9:53:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chromeluv:
I think this makes more sense than anything....



www.eagleindustries.com/images/prodimages/p_PB_M4_4_M9_2_Le.jpg



The ALL NEW Patrol Bandoleer was specifically designed with ease of use in mind. Simply throw it over your shoulder and go. Or, for a more secure carry utilize the belt loop located on the back of the main body. The PB-M4/4-M9/2-LE gives you quick access to 4 extra M4 mags and 2 M9 pistol mags that are always within easy reach.

Features:
••• Versatile carry options.
••• Padded body for comfortable carry.
••• Eagle's SecureTack™ stitching at all stress points.
••• Elastic around M4 mag pockets to hold mags securely in place.
••• Grommets in pockets for drainage.
••• Lifetime guarantee.
••• Made in the USA.




I think I may have to invest in one of those...
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 9:58:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eggrolly:
UM WHY does it make sense?

I am not knocking the PB, but why do you think it makes sense?





after looking at it, it looks like it can be attached to the belt in at the 12 o'clock position. SO it would ride like a normal chest rig.

The eagle/skid chest rig is nice, but it has too much real estate for my own personal needs. Like the 2 points mentioned above, realistic and ease of use.

4 carbine mags, 2 pistol mags, with a dump pouch in the rear to balance weight.

I see myself, more realistically, grabbing this if I ever have to use a carbine for anything other than range/training use..
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:46:29 AM EDT
just so you know, that is intended to be *tossed* on and not for full time wear, the belt loop is a stabilizer and does not perform in a load bearing fashion - certainly not in the 12 position that you indicated, think the buckle would get in the way - plus the sides would still jostel about when in travel.

what stopping the use of a dedicated quad mag pouch on a belt fulltime?

the amount of time you'd spend getting this setup, would have been equivalent to the amount of time spent donning a chest rig.

EGG
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:34:11 PM EDT
I'm curious, has anyone gotten the Patrol Bandoleer yet? I would like to see pics and get a real like user review on it. The price is right for me, and it seems right for something just to have tucked into the range bag loaded up and ready to pull out at a moments notice. I was almost sold on the UCH for that purpose, but I don't think I would ever wear it, just have it loaded up to throw over my shoulder....
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:08:00 PM EDT
just get a mil web belt, pad optional, and alice suspenders. run 3 mag m16 pouches, w/grenade carriers and internal dividers cut off, in front on either side of the buckle. put your pistol mags on your reaction side next to the m16 pouch. also put a saw or dump pouch reaction side behind your pistol mags. youll still have room on your weapon side for a holster and weapons catch, or run a drop holster if thats what you have. not too expensive.
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