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Posted: 1/23/2006 9:31:25 AM EDT
How long will it take for the Army to completely switch to ACU? Reserve units? NG? Is there any use left in the military for woodland or desert camo? Is my closet full of woodland and desert camo obsolete now?

For larger items like rucks etc. it seems to me it would be easier for the item to be in OD or CB and have a reversible camo cover for the terain you're in.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:20:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:46:55 AM EDT
Everyone has to have 2 sets by May of '07 and 4 sets by May '08. ROTC has until 2010. Deploying units and trainees are getting them now.

A ruck cover works until it blows off, is torn, or is lost. And what about having to equip every soldier with two sets of everything, and find a way to get all that crap to the combat zone, expecially the units like the 75th, 82nd, 101st, and 173rd, that have to be able to get a batallion into anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. They have to be "wheels up," meaning, on the plane and taking off within 18 hours. How do you plan on getting them the uniforms and gear in the right colors? Make them store two of everything? And since most of their stuff is already packed, and much of that is siting at the airfield ready to load, how do you plan on changing that stuff to the proper color? It's not like there is room to have desert and woodland on the pallets. Then what do they do once they hit the ground? Repack everything into the right colors and what? Bury the woodland stuff if they deployed to a desert, or burn the desert stuff if they are in a wooded area?
Having separate uniforms just leads to the problems that we had at the beginning when people were wearing the wrong colors for the environment, and still were being issued woodland stuff in '04, and even now there is a lot of green being worn in the desert.
The ACU isn't perfect, but it's better to have something that mostly works everywhere, than to end up with something that doesn't work at all.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:14:14 AM EDT
If it's any help with a precendent, the USMC started going hard to MarPat in late 2002, and woodlands ("old" BDU pattern) are still authorized until July 1, 2006.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:02:34 AM EDT
If seen pictures of the ACU in wooded areas and it sticks out like a sore thumb against green, Could this be a problem in the future?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:20:03 PM EDT
No. No forests in Iran.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:43:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 9:44:55 PM EDT by Dawg180]

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Everyone has to have 2 sets by May of '07 and 4 sets by May '08. ROTC has until 2010. Deploying units and trainees are getting them now.

A ruck cover works until it blows off, is torn, or is lost. And what about having to equip every soldier with two sets of everything, and find a way to get all that crap to the combat zone, expecially the units like the 75th, 82nd, 101st, and 173rd, that have to be able to get a batallion into anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. They have to be "wheels up," meaning, on the plane and taking off within 18 hours. How do you plan on getting them the uniforms and gear in the right colors? Make them store two of everything? And since most of their stuff is already packed, and much of that is siting at the airfield ready to load, how do you plan on changing that stuff to the proper color? It's not like there is room to have desert and woodland on the pallets. Then what do they do once they hit the ground? Repack everything into the right colors and what? Bury the woodland stuff if they deployed to a desert, or burn the desert stuff if they are in a wooded area?
Having separate uniforms just leads to the problems that we had at the beginning when people were wearing the wrong colors for the environment, and still were being issued woodland stuff in '04, and even now there is a lot of green being worn in the desert.
The ACU isn't perfect, but it's better to have something that mostly works everywhere, than to end up with something that doesn't work at all.



You just did a cut and paste of your text from another thread, didn't you?

One of these days some genius is going to take my idea of reversible cammies with desert/tan on one side and green/foliage on the other and make a mint on it. One unifrom, two environments!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:29:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dawg180:

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
Everyone has to have 2 sets by May of '07 and 4 sets by May '08. ROTC has until 2010. Deploying units and trainees are getting them now..................snip.....................The ACU isn't perfect, but it's better to have something that mostly works everywhere, than to end up with something that doesn't work at all.



You just did a cut and paste of your text from another thread, didn't you?

One of these days some genius is going to take my idea of reversible cammies with desert/tan on one side and green/foliage on the other and make a mint on it. One unifrom, two environments!



Didn't they have reversible day/ night camo during GW I?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:02:43 AM EDT
I probably just remembered what I'd posted in the other thread a day earlier, or had posted that soon after this, or had just posted the same info on another board. This topic came up like three or four times in a couple boards I frequent, at the same time. I just looked up the memo on it and put down the information.

Reversible would be ok, but still not perfect. It would have to be thicker or the woodland would show through the lighter desert camo, and even in the heavier termperate, AKA "winter" weight material it shows through a little on the ACH reversible helmet cover. And that heavier material sucks to wear. Too hot in the summer, and takes too long to dry all the time.

There were reversible day and night parkas and pants too I think in the Gulf War. The 6 color desert on the day side, and that dark green grid on the night side. One of the squad leaders in my last unit kept his parka, and wore it in Yakima a few times.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 9:14:26 AM EDT
No. No forests in Iran.



NEGATIVE. There's plenty of green woodlands along the Euphrates River system and in the north.

ACU is also way too light for the desert colors there and sticks out against the prevalent tans.

I guess someone in the Army forgot that camo isn't ment to attract attention.

Marpat is far superior.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:02:09 PM EDT
They never should have scraped the Crye Multi Cam pattern. ACU was rushed onto the scene and really doesnt blend well in any environment in the pics that I have seen. Exept the desert from a great distance away.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:13:18 PM EDT


Looks pretty good here. This is the newer tan/green version, not the old grey.

By the way I'm a professional geographer, so I know what the bioscape is like in Iran. just making a little joke
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 12:14:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Talyn:
No. No forests in Iran.



NEGATIVE. There's plenty of green woodlands along the Euphrates River system and in the north.

ACU is also way too light for the desert colors there and sticks out against the prevalent tans.

I guess someone in the Army forgot that camo isn't ment to attract attention.

Marpat is far superior.



And how the hell do you get a batallion of the 82nd or 101st into the proper uniforms in just 18 hours? Not to mention the stuff that has already been packed and is sitting at the airfield?

Sure the Marpat might be better, but the Marines deploy from ships, where there is room for both colors of uniforms, and usually they know hte region of the world they are going to be in. The 82nd, 101st, 173rd, 75th, can end up anywhere in the world, in any environment in less than 48 hours. 18hours from notification to be in the plane leaving the ground, plus however long it takes to fly there. the rest of the brigade (also prepacked and ready to go) in less than 96 hours.

I'm getting sick of this damn whining about the color not being perfect. Better a not perfect, but close enough match, than something that is completely wrong.

Just a quick question, what is your rank and duty position? Internet commando, truck driver, PAC clerk, finance clerk, or someone that actually might need to use camoflauge sometime? Infantry, SF, scouts, snipers (who will often have a ghille anyway). Especially the last two.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:41:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By Talyn:
No. No forests in Iran.



NEGATIVE. There's plenty of green woodlands along the Euphrates River system and in the north.

ACU is also way too light for the desert colors there and sticks out against the prevalent tans.

I guess someone in the Army forgot that camo isn't ment to attract attention.

Marpat is far superior.



And how the hell do you get a batallion of the 82nd or 101st into the proper uniforms in just 18 hours? Not to mention the stuff that has already been packed and is sitting at the airfield?

Sure the Marpat might be better, but the Marines deploy from ships, where there is room for both colors of uniforms, and usually they know hte region of the world they are going to be in. The 82nd, 101st, 173rd, 75th, can end up anywhere in the world, in any environment in less than 48 hours. 18hours from notification to be in the plane leaving the ground, plus however long it takes to fly there. the rest of the brigade (also prepacked and ready to go) in less than 96 hours.

I'm getting sick of this damn whining about the color not being perfect. Better a not perfect, but close enough match, than something that is completely wrong.

Just a quick question, what is your rank and duty position? Internet commando, truck driver, PAC clerk, finance clerk, or someone that actually might need to use camoflauge sometime? Infantry, SF, scouts, snipers (who will often have a ghille anyway). Especially the last two.



I understand your anger, but he makes a good point. I have seen people wearing ACU camo in a number of stateside settings and it doesn't blend it anywhere. Not even a little.

I see people wearing it as a fashion in the cities and it stands out.

Out in the dense underbrush and bushes when I'm airsofting it doesn't get dark enough in the ambient like to fade away even at 100 yards or more. And in a pine or cedar forest it stands out against the brown needles and bark even worse.

A friend of mine in iraq sent back some pictures of his team out in the sand and he stands out like a sore thumb.

It just doesn't seem to work well anywhere. And while you make a very valid point about the difficulty of outfitting a rapidly deploying force, there must be a way to get them some camo that works better. Do I know how? No. But this ACU stuff is a liability for our troops lives and someone must have the solution out there. And I can only hope it's found before it starts costing lives.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:04:01 PM EDT
It's irritating all this whining (by people who never will have to wear the shit) about how it doesn't fit in anywhere, or that x or y pattern is so much better, without even giving it a thought how things work. Pretty much for every internet commando that bitches about it not blending in their chosen background (and you are supposed to be IN the background, not standing in front of it if you actually want to hide), you can find people that have had no problem with how well it conceals. Why do people keep saying that plain OD (another color that fits in nowhere) is so good because it will get dirty and blend better, but then not even think enough to realise that ACU's will do that too. Even in the desert, they will get dusty enough to blend in a lot better. Hell even woodland will stand out less if you get it dusty.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:36:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ErinMT:

Out in the dense underbrush and bushes when I'm airsofting it doesn't get dark enough in the ambient like to fade away even at 100 yards or more. And in a pine or cedar forest it stands out against the brown needles and bark even worse.

It just doesn't seem to work well anywhere. And while you make a very valid point about the difficulty of outfitting a rapidly deploying force, there must be a way to get them some camo that works better. Do I know how? No. But this ACU stuff is a liability for our troops lives and someone must have the solution out there. And I can only hope it's found before it starts costing lives.




Since you Airsoft, you must be an expert, maybe you should get a job over at U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center (Natick), just be sure to tell them your credentials on your resume any why the ACU is all fucked up in YOUR opinion.
I don't think that the ACU is the best pattern for any one environment. But for a universal pattern ACU is one of the best out there. MC might have been my choice if anyone asked, they didn't I am not an expert. I have read many AAR's coming from OIF and OEF and havn't heard anyone bitch'n about the ACU pattern; except that Woodland OWNS the night vs. ACU when facing an enemy with gen III NODs.

You also have to take into account that within 10-15 years 90% of the world's population is going to be living in "urban" areas. BDU's and DCU's suck doing MOUT, if you take a look at where the centers of population are going to be, those are the places most likely to be used as future combat sites. I am not going to be shooting commies in the Fulda gap anytime soon, nor running around some fucking Airsoft make believe wonderland.

SCOUTS OUT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:05:25 PM EDT
Since this is a debate about whether the ACUs work better than MARPAT or other uniforms. I'll put in my two cents.

The ACUs work fine for this environment. In Iraq currently, everything is urban mechanized warfare. The enemy is no longer wearing uniforms or signs that say they are the enemy. Basically soldiers respond to insurgents based on contact. ACUs work awesome in an urban environment. It actually blends in well with urban terrain very well. In a woodland environment, all a soldier has to do to blend in better is low crawl through some dirt anyways... Which they should be doing when they suspect enemy in close proximity anyways...

The bigger concern is of why military vehicles in Iraq still have woodland cammo pattern painted on them. Most of the attacks on Americans that happen as of late are on convoys or on patrols. Honestly, cammo patterns don't really matter.

I've been having issues with my ACUs because of the shear amount of velcro on my uniform, the low quality stitching, and the strings/blousing straps that are on my uniform. The uniform is actually alot more comfortable than previous versions and quite more utilitarian.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:17:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
i11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/AyeGuy/acu19.jpg

Looks pretty good here. This is the newer tan/green version, not the old grey.

By the way I'm a professional geographer, so I know what the bioscape is like in Iran. just making a little joke



This version of the ACU doesn't look so bad. I didn't realize that there were diferent types.
The pictures I've seen look mostly like this:


Which is obviously not the same. I still think it sucks for woodlands, but that's king of the general consensus...
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:55:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 19-kilo:
Woodland OWNS the night vs. ACU when facing an enemy with gen III NODs.
SCOUTS OUT



How does Woodland or ACU compair to the night camo they had during GW1. Or doesn't night camo hold up against gen3 NV.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:38:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:46:53 PM EDT by ErinMT]
Calm down 19-kilo, I said airsofting the way other people say off roading or hunting. It's a hobby. Nowhere did I claim to be an expert.

Just giving my personal observations. I'm still allowed to do that right? Or was the 1st Amendment deleted from the BOR?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:36:51 AM EDT
This is one of my biggest arguments against the so called superiority of locale specific uniforms. I don't ever want to deploy like this again. This was Feb 28th (maybe the 27th) of 2004 when we were loading up to drive to McChord to board the planes.
Oh, check this out, on the bus ride to McChord, the radio station played the wsong, "Leaving on a Jet Plane." Don't know which version it was, who sang it. Sort of a sad song actually.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:32:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
This was Feb 28th (maybe the 27th) of 2004 when we were loading up to drive to McChord to board the planes.
Oh, check this out, on the bus ride to McChord, the radio station played the wsong, "Leaving on a Jet Plane."



Yeah, but, when you got to where ever you were going did you hear the song "We got to get out of this place"?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:20:25 AM EDT
wow what the hell would even be the point of wearing desert camo with all that woodland gear you guys are packing? so now is everything, gear and what not all gonna be the new army pattern?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:49:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RacerXFD:
Since this is a debate about whether the ACUs work better than MARPAT or other uniforms. I'll put in my two cents.

The ACUs work fine for this environment. In Iraq currently, everything is urban mechanized warfare. The enemy is no longer wearing uniforms or signs that say they are the enemy. Basically soldiers respond to insurgents based on contact. ACUs work awesome in an urban environment. It actually blends in well with urban terrain very well. In a woodland environment, all a soldier has to do to blend in better is low crawl through some dirt anyways... Which they should be doing when they suspect enemy in close proximity anyways...

The bigger concern is of why military vehicles in Iraq still have woodland cammo pattern painted on them. Most of the attacks on Americans that happen as of late are on convoys or on patrols. Honestly, cammo patterns don't really matter.

I've been having issues with my ACUs because of the shear amount of velcro on my uniform, the low quality stitching, and the strings/blousing straps that are on my uniform. The uniform is actually alot more comfortable than previous versions and quite more utilitarian.



That pretty much sums it up right there.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:36:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 8:39:40 PM EDT by AyeGuy]
Yes, zaphar, one wonders what they were thinking when they came out with the first ACU color version.

But they fixed it. The Grey is gone.


Two so'jers with a 25lb gold brick they found:




Colse-up of new ACU jacket:

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:58:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 7:59:58 AM EDT by Unicorn]

Originally Posted By HillBillySniper:
wow what the hell would even be the point of wearing desert camo with all that woodland gear you guys are packing? so now is everything, gear and what not all gonna be the new army pattern?



And that my friend is the point of having a universal pattern.

The first guys going in aren't going to be wearing a completely wrong pattern for their einvironment, and folow on forces aren't going to be weaing some hodgpodge collection until production and issuing catches up.

The guys that replaced up last year had all desert MOLLE which was good for them, but what about if/when they deploy to someplace that isn't desert? Hell, even going to the field in the US would require them to not use the MOLLE stuff, and desert IBA cover. Back to the old shit until the ACU patterned stuff gets issued to everyone.

I actually do like the rucksack cover idea though, after thinking about it a bit more. Make it waterproof and it could do a double duty.

No matter what happens with the ACU pattern in the future, I hope that the new foliage green continues to replace OD green as a color. That greyish green IMO fits in better in wooded areas better than OD.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:01:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Yes, zaphar, one wonders what they were thinking when they came out with the first ACU color version.

But they fixed it. The Grey is gone.


Two so'jers with a 25lb gold brick they found:

i11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/AyeGuy/acu15.jpg


Colse-up of new ACU jacket:

i11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/AyeGuy/acu2.jpg



Look at the dissapointment in their faces knowing they will have to turn that in. I'd be crying myself.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:22:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
I actually do like the rucksack cover idea though, after thinking about it a bit more. Make it waterproof and it could do a double duty.



Thank you, put a waterproof layer in the middle and different camo pattern on either side. Then maybe 4 fastec buckles to hold it on with 550 cord around the edge to tighten it down.

Even with the army changing to ACU for some AO's they're going to need different camo. They will still need "winter" camo for snow covered AO's etc. We had white parka and field pants covers and used white tape on our LBE for winter camo.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:09:52 PM EDT
Whites are easier to deal with. Just thin uninsulated parka and pants. Thin enough to pack small and can be left in the locker when not deploying to a snowy area. One set will last long enough to let supply catch up on getting replacements.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:13:08 PM EDT
Just a quick question, what is your rank and duty position?

Unicorn,

24 years US gov service. Beyond that it's need to know info & you don't need to know.

Deployment in 18hrs is no problem when the troops are issued 2 sets of BDU's. Wherever the deployment is going change into the appropriate color. Far better that than being a hi vis target once the boots hit the ground.

Your service is appreciated.

No whining here, just the facts that ACU sucks. It still sticks out with a darker pattern now.

You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:36:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 4:44:56 AM EDT by Unicorn]
Oh, the old need to know thing. Sorry but that holds as much water with me as, "my records are classified" or "were destroyed in the fire." Yeah, it happens, I know people that had parts of their records hidden and went to service schools while listed as being part of units they weren't, and I myself was deployed to an "undisclosed location" :), but really.
Federal government service? Not military? Ok then, so Post Office? Poultry inspector for the FDA? Interpretive Park Ranger? Oh, I get it, member of a super secret dark ops, ninja organisation right? A real life Jack Bauer.

Sorry for being a smart ass, but I've seen way too many internet commandos to take a comment like that seriously. It's cheesy enough when it's used in some stupid movie, but to see it used in real life as anything but part of a joke is just too much.

When my ruck was packed and ready to go, it wa stuffed. Now to add in the ammo, food, and water that ould be needed and there isn't much room for another set of BDU's, and probably rain gear and some snivel gear as well. Not to mention the stuff that was prepacked on pallets, pallets that we had to worry about making fit into the planes. And what about IBA covers, vests/harneses and JSLIST?

I'm not saying the color is fantastic. It needs work and improvement. I'm saying that the idea behind it is sound, and that it's better than what we've had. I'm talking about units deploying to the desert while wearing woodland BDU's. Units deploying a couple years later with desert BDU's, but still having woodland IBS covers, MOLLE vests, and rucks.

Are you seriously telling me that this shit is better?!?
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