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Posted: 3/30/2006 12:28:04 PM EDT
I looked at a double barrel 12ga today, and was wondering if anyone had any info on it... It has "something" Arms(unreadable), then "Norwich, Conn." under that - and "Peerless Grade" on the other side... Other than needing a little stock repair, it appears fully functional - it has 2 triggers, and does not have exposed hammers... I'm pretty sure the barrels are not Damascus(sp?) - but would like to know for sure - how can I tell for sure??? The barrels don't have the lengthwise lines I'm used to seeing on Damascus types, so I'm thinking/hoping that regular 12ga loads would be safe to fire in it, once the stock is repaired properly... So, the questions are:

What exactly am I looking at???
Damascus or no??? Is it safe for firing modern shotshells(after repair)???
What's it worth, approximately???

I've always wanted an old double barrel 12ga, but didn't want to spend much on one, and won't buy one I can't shoot modern shells out of... I can get it for a pretty cheap, actually...


- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:37:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:18:32 PM EDT
I appreciate the input, ikor - I'm beginning to think it might be a Crescent Arms, and with fluid steel barrels... I'm still looking into it, though...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:04:55 PM EDT
I loved old doubles; they are fun to shoot. but it is rare to find a qualified gunsmith to work on them correctly...and it is not something amateurs can do.

If it were damascus, you would not use modern ammo because it would blow the barrel...

You need to get dummy rounds (snap caps) and test the cocking and firing...sometimes it sounds like it is cocking but it doesn't fire... better yet, the guy should let you fire it because sometimes it may cock once or twice and miss the next few times.

Not a collectible...

I wouldn't pay more than $100. but that's me...

It is easy to get burned with old doubles because they may look OK on the outside...I bought an L.C. Smith at a gun show for $1000. and it seemed to work fine there...in the woods it did not fire one barrel (single select trigger) An "enthusiastic" gunsmith worked on it and it still only fired one barrel...The expert L.C.Smith guy in the New England area wouldn't touch it because "somebody else" worked on it and screwed it up. I dumped it off at a pawn shop for a $400 loss.

Save your money and get a newer one that works that you can enjoy.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:19:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:35:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 8:39:57 AM EDT by sum-rifle]
www.pugsguns.com/content/pictures/3134.jpg

is that it?

www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=169

or this?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 1:40:54 PM EDT by georgestrings]

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
www.pugsguns.com/content/pictures/3134.jpg

is that it?

www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=169

or this?




Nope - it doesn't appear to be either of those... I found the following, which seems to shed a little light on the subject:


"I have two H&D Folsom catalogues. Catalogue No. 18 calls their low priced guns American Gun Co. Machine Made Hammer (or Hammerless) Guns. At the time of this catalogue the No. 0 hammer gun for $25 was made in 12-, 16- or 20-gauge, as was the No. 6 Knickerbocker Hammerless for $30. There was also a small-bore hammer gun called "Midget Field Model" for $28 -- No. 28 in 28-gauge and No. 44 for the .44XL shot cartridges or .410-bore shells. "One gun takes both sizes." In the parts section it shows coil-spring locks for both the hammer and hammerless models.

By Catalogue No. 25 H&D Folsom are calling their low-priced line Crescent Guns. This is a big catalogue like a Stoegers and includes other makers guns. The NID Model Ithaca is shown, so I guess that puts it 1926 or later. In the Crescent hammerless line there is the No. 60 "Empire" hammerless with plain uncheckered half-pistol grip wood for $23 in 12-, 16- or 20-gauges and .410-bore.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is the No. 6 "Peerless" (The Old Knickerbocker Improved) in 12- , 16-, and 20-gauges, with checkered wood, a capped pistol grip, and a Deeley & Edge lever forearm for $24.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then there is the No. 66 -- 410 GAUGE QUAIL MODEL with capped pistol grip, checkered wood, Deeley & Edge forearm lever, and also priced at $24. The breech ends of the .410-bore barrels are flared out like a bell to match the likely 20-gauge breechballs of the action it is built on. My family use to own one of this style that was marked "Quail Hammerless" on one lock and Crescent Fire-Arms Co. on the other, but it was stolen back in the early 1970s. It had been bored out for 3-inch shells and I shot a few Doves with it.

Finally, I have a flyer for Crescent Guns for 1930 which shows three hammerless double models. The "New Empire"--(No. 88) for $23.50 with a capped pistol grip, checkered wood, a Jostam Hy-Gun recoil pad and twin white sights. The "New Empire"--(No. 9) for $18.75 with a capped pistol grip, checkered wood, a "Distinctive Maroon Color" butt plate and a white front sight. The "Empire"--(No. 60) for $17.75, had a plain half-pistol grip stock and a brass front sight.

I got one of these guns in .410-bore about 22 years ago down at the Roanoke, Virginia, gun show. It is marked "New Empire" on the left lock plate and Crescent Fire-Arms Co., Norwich, Conn, U.S.A. on the right. It has the "Distinctive Maroon Color" butt plate and two white sights. The gun is in very high condition and has 3-inch chambers. On this gun the breech ends of the barrels are very heavy all through the chamber area and the gun weighs 6 pounds 2.3 ounces. The forearm is of the snap-on/off style with a sprin-loaded plunger bearing against the loop like a Parker Bros. Trojan or an early Sterlingworth. The locks on this gun are powered by a V-Spring, which really appears to be just a bent piece of spring wire."



So far, that's the best description I've found of this shotgun - it appears to be a Crescent Arms Peerless... I'm picking it up next week, for the price of $50... I figure that with a bit of wood repair and cleanup, it'll make a nice addition to my modest "collection", for not all that much money - and *should* be safe enough for a bit of bird hunting...


Thanks for the input, everyone...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:27:14 PM EDT
I would have a gunsmith you trust check it out to confirm it is safe to shoot and then have some fun!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:41:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
I would have a gunsmith you trust check it out to confirm it is safe to shoot and then have some fun!




That's solid advice - thanks...



- georgestrings
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