Ok, ladies, I know this has been discussed and is actually in a tacked thread.  Feel free to flame me, dupe-nazi me, and accuse of of being a baby eating asshole.

I was at Sportsman's Warehouse today and they have a brand new M4 for sale.  The stock is a fixed telescoper-look-alike, but what confused me was:



*drum roll*



It had a magazine extension on it.  The guy working there told me it was factory installed, though I suppose the distributor could have installed it.

What gives?  I thought that was illegal.

Now, if the mag extension was made in the USA that would be legal, right, because it wouldn't be assembling a magazine greater than 5 rounds with imported parts, which is the no-no.  Are there made-in-USA mag extensions for the M4?  Is Sportsman's Warehouse unkowingly offering an illegal shotgun for sale?  Am I completely misinterpreting the BATF letter in the tacked thread?  What is the meaning of life?

Quoted: Ok, ladies, I know this has been discussed and is actually in a tacked thread.  Feel free to flame me, dupe-nazi me, and accuse of of being a baby eating asshole. I was at Sportsman's Warehouse today and they have a brand new M4 for sale.  The stock is a fixed telescoper-look-alike, but what confused me was: *drum roll* It had a magazine extension on it.  The guy working there told me it was factory installed, though I suppose the distributor could have installed it. What gives?  I thought that was illegal. Now, if the mag extension was made in the USA that would be legal, right, because it wouldn't be assembling a magazine greater than 5 rounds with imported parts, which is the no-no.  Are there made-in-USA mag extensions for the M4?  Is Sportsman's Warehouse unkowingly offering an illegal shotgun for sale?  Am I completely misinterpreting the BATF letter in the tacked thread?  What is the meaning of life?

I don't think the mag capacity restriction applies to fixed tube mags... Just detachable ones...

Further, most of the neutered rifles that come in had 10 round, not 5 round, low-cap mags...

Quoted: I don't think the mag capacity restriction applies to fixed tube mags... Just detachable ones... Further, most of the neutered rifles that come in had 10 round, not 5 round, low-cap mags...

That might 'splain it...

But check out the tacked thread on the M4 in this forum.  It has a letter from the ATF which states:

(paraphrasing)

Importing a shotgun with a mag capacity of > 5 rounds is illegal.  Assembling one out of imported parts is a felony.

This is why I'm confused.  

I REALLY want to be told that the gun SW is selling is legal, because I'll probably go plunk down money on it if it is.

ETA: The gun I held had an 18.5" barrel, I believe.  Could it be that the mag extension on it brought the mag total up to 5 rounds, so it's a 5+1 gun and therefore not covered by the ban?  Perhaps it was a 3 + 1 gun before the extension?  That doesn't seem right...with an 18.5" bbl and mag tube that extends to the muzzle, I'd expect it to be at least a 6 shot tube.

Quoted: Quoted: Ok, ladies, I know this has been discussed and is actually in a tacked thread.  Feel free to flame me, dupe-nazi me, and accuse of of being a baby eating asshole. I was at Sportsman's Warehouse today and they have a brand new M4 for sale.  The stock is a fixed telescoper-look-alike, but what confused me was: *drum roll* It had a magazine extension on it.  The guy working there told me it was factory installed, though I suppose the distributor could have installed it. What gives?  I thought that was illegal. Now, if the mag extension was made in the USA that would be legal, right, because it wouldn't be assembling a magazine greater than 5 rounds with imported parts, which is the no-no.  Are there made-in-USA mag extensions for the M4?  Is Sportsman's Warehouse unkowingly offering an illegal shotgun for sale?  Am I completely misinterpreting the BATF letter in the tacked thread?  What is the meaning of life? I don't think the mag capacity restriction applies to fixed tube mags... Just detachable ones... Further, most of the neutered rifles that come in had 10 round, not 5 round, low-cap mags...

No, fixed tubes were included, that is why Benelli is no longer offering the mag extensions as aftermarket for the M4/1014's.  No import can hold more than 5 rounds, unless configured with the required number of US made parts.
ETA:  There still seems to be a gray area as fa as the ATF & Benelli's go.  Some have fitted collapsible stocks to theirs after the Sunset, but they appear to be in violation?

Quoted: No, fixed tubes were included, that is why Benelli is no longer offering the mag extensions as aftermarket for the M4/1014's.  No import can hold more than 5 rounds, unless configured with the required number of US made parts.

That was my understanding.  So...could the mag extension be a US-made part?  That'd be totally legit, right?

Or could the mag only be a 5 rounder even with the extension?  Doubtful.

Or could it be that other foreign parts were swapped out and required # of US parts are in the gun?  Highly doubtful.

Stupid law.  I wish Benelli would start making these things inside the US.

Quoted: Quoted: No, fixed tubes were included, that is why Benelli is no longer offering the mag extensions as aftermarket for the M4/1014's.  No import can hold more than 5 rounds, unless configured with the required number of US made parts. That was my understanding.  So...could the mag extension be a US-made part?  That'd be totally legit, right? Or could the mag only be a 5 rounder even with the extension?  Doubtful. Or could it be that other foreign parts were swapped out and required # of US parts are in the gun?  Highly doubtful. Stupid law.  I wish Benelli would start making these things inside the US.

I believe that Benelli, in error, actually released some with the extensions, but am not positive.  Otherwise, distributors may have added them.  For a short time, Benelli themselves were unsure of what was going on, and the ATF was really not too clear either.

I just got an email from Sure Cycle, they are going to start selling 2 round extentions for the Benelli M3 in March.

You should ask him if he is going to make an extention for the M4.  

Now if I could just find someone to make me an AR15 telestock adapter for the Benelli M3....

Quoted: I just got an email from Sure Cycle, they are going to start selling 2 round extentions for the Benelli M3 in March. You should ask him if he is going to make an extention for the M4.

I'm not familiar with them, but I'm thrilled to hear that.

I am correct in my interpretration that a USA-made mag extension is completely legal, right?

Quoted:

(paraphrasing)
Importing a shotgun with a mag capacity of > 5 rounds is illegal.  Assembling one out of imported parts is a felony.


This has been hashed so many times on so many forums, yet no one has ever answered this ... if greater than 5 rounds is illegal for an imported shotgun, then how can ever gun shop here sell the FN Self-loading police or Winchester Super X2 practical?  These are definitely imported and greater than 5 rounds.

And before you say it's because these have rifle type stocks and not pistol grip like the M4, then why was Benelli denied import for the M1 and later M2 practicals which have standard stocks?  I think there is some other issue between Beretta/Benelli and the ATF than any other issue with imported extensions.   If Benelli were to simply add the full length military tube, then there would be no 'extension' to worry about and it would essentially be like importing the FN or Winchester.  So why will Benelli will not do this?  Yes there is something else going on with them and how they respond to the feds.

Quoted: If Benelli were to simply add the full length military tube, then there would be no 'extension' to worry about and

I think they aren't allowed to import a shotgun that has a > 5 capacity...

Are the winchesters made overseas?  I thought that was basically the US made FN.

I bet if someone sends ATF a letter pointing out these discrepencies, they'll get a response which contradicts the other letter the ATF sent out and is in the tacked thread on this.

Gun laws suck.  I don't want to be a felon by accident, but I want to own a really cool shotgun.  Is that asking so much?  It's to the point where I'm considering buying a SBS just because it'll be exempt from all this BS.

It's ridiculous that we're at the mercy of the schizo ATF interpretations of these stupid laws.  Of course, that's assuming that however the ATF interprets them will be upheld by a criminal court.  With this particular question, I really wonder how strong of a case a federal prosecutor would really have.  Not that I'm going to be the one to push it.

You're right -- this question has been asked repeatedly all over the place.  As soon as one answer is given, another one is given that contradicts it.

Quoted: Quoted: (paraphrasing) Importing a shotgun with a mag capacity of > 5 rounds is illegal.  Assembling one out of imported parts is a felony. This has been hashed so many times on so many forums, yet no one has ever answered this ... if greater than 5 rounds is illegal for an imported shotgun, then how can ever gun shop here sell the FN Self-loading police or Winchester Super X2 practical?  These are definitely imported and greater than 5 rounds. And before you say it's because these have rifle type stocks and not pistol grip like the M4, then why was Benelli denied import for the M1 and later M2 practicals which have standard stocks?  I think there is some other issue between Beretta/Benelli and the ATF than any other issue with imported extensions.   If Benelli were to simply add the full length military tube, then there would be no 'extension' to worry about and it would essentially be like importing the FN or Winchester.  So why will Benelli will not do this?  Yes there is something else going on with them and how they respond to the feds.

FN very well could make shotguns in the USA, or do they only make military contract shit here?

Quoted: So...could the mag extension be a US-made part?  That'd be totally legit, right?

Regardless of whether the mag extension is made in the U.S. or not, a "non-sporting" shotgun can have no more than 10 imported parts to be 922(r) compliant. Just a US-made mag extension alone would not drop that number to 10 or less. You'd still need 3 or 4 US-made parts.

That said, it's all one big freakin' nightmare. Some are reconfiguring their shotguns anyway, some are buying them already configured. The BATF says it's illegal, the customer service rep at Benelli told me it was illegal, some people say it's legal -- so I guess just do what you are comfortable with. There doesn't seem to be anyone being busted for it yet.

Typical BATF nonsense. All their interpretations are as clear as mud.

Quoted: That said, it's all one big freakin' nightmare. Some are reconfiguring their shotguns anyway, some are buying them already configured. The BATF says it's illegal, the customer service rep at Benelli told me it was illegal, some people say it's legal -- so I guess just do what you are comfortable with. There doesn't seem to be anyone being busted for it yet.

Bah.  I wouldn't want to use one of these for home defense if I thought it had the chance of being illegal.  That'd be very bad.

That's laddies btw.....  

Why not try this. Put some money on the M4, a layaway if they have it. Then, ask them the questions, get them to jump through the hoops. I'm sure they don't want to sell an illegal weapon either.

The M4 I handled last week was said to be a 7 shot. I have no idea on the legal implications, but think it came from their distributor that way (I'll ask next time I'm in there).

Couldn't agree more on ATF, I think they want to be vague, so they can get more people unwittingly violating the law. Kinda gives them the power.

Oh, and the meaning of life is [CENSORED for their own good]... there, now the secret's out .

Quoted: I wouldn't want to use one of these for home defense if I thought it had the chance of being illegal.

I wouldn't either. That's why mine is still bone stock -- until someone can prove 100% that the full-feature Benelli M4's are legal. Just because a dealer is selling them doesn't make it legal -- it just means that they are misinformed and no one has cracked the whip on 'em yet.

Quoted: FN very well could make shotguns in the USA, or do they only make military contract shit here?

Direct from Winchester's catalog and site:
"Please note that the following models are or were manufactured in Japan for U.S. Repeating Arms: Models 1885, 1886, 1892, 1895, 63 and 52B. Super X2, Super X3 and Select shotguns are manufactured in Belgium and assembled in Portugal."

In five years the SOL , no not Shit out of Luck, Statute of Limitations will apply and you'll no longer be able to be found guilty of it with it if it is illegal.

This may be of interest to you M4 owners..

Towards the bottom of the page...

www.nodakspud.com/

Quoted: In five years the SOL , no not Shit out of Luck, Statute of Limitations will apply and you'll no longer be able to be found guilty of it with it if it is illegal.

Hmm, that's an interesting take.  It'd still make me look bad to the jury if I defended my home with it, even if I was immune to prosecution.  I suppose a good lawyer might be able to have that suppressed though.

Of course, they could claim in prosecution that I had just added the magazine extension less than 5 years ago, even though I bought it that way.

Do you have a link to the statute of limitations on this law?

ETA: Isn't it a crime just to posess such a gun, in which case I'd always be commiting a felony?  Or would it just be a crime to buy it, either accidentally or knowingly?  I'm really not looking to break the law either way.

Quoted: Quoted: In five years the SOL , no not Shit out of Luck, Statute of Limitations will apply and you'll no longer be able to be found guilty of it with it if it is illegal. Hmm, that's an interesting take.  It'd still make me look bad to the jury if I defended my home with it, even if I was immune to prosecution.  I suppose a good lawyer might be able to have that suppressed though. Of course, they could claim in prosecution that I had just added the magazine extension less than 5 years ago, even though I bought it that way. Do you have a link to the statute of limitations on this law? ETA: Isn't it a crime just to posess such a gun, in which case I'd always be commiting a felony?  Or would it just be a crime to buy it, either accidentally or knowingly?  I'm really not looking to break the law either way.

I just remembered it being 5 years from previous posts, a quick google found another reference to it, for instance:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/printthread.php?s=e9980663ddb6916bb7e1c3064a26848e&threadid=67194&perpage=46

"Q: In Vol. 2 No. 9 The Legal Side addressed an interesting question involving 18 U.S.C. sections 922(r) and (v) in reference to a MAK-90. As you pointed out assembling a semi-automatic weapon from "imported parts" that is not "importable" is a violation of 18 U.S.C. section 922(r). I have a follow up question. Is there a statute of limitations on such an act of assembly - could the gunsmith in question be prosecuted some eight years later? In a related matter concerning 18 U.S.C. section 922(v). I have heard that a receiver and parts needed to complete a semi-automatic assault weapon that was possessed prior to the enactment of this section is grandfathered. How would this apply to a MAK-90. Thank you for addressing is matter and for your fine publication.

A: The statute of limitations on violtions of 18 U.S.C. section 922(r) is 5 years. The general statute of lmitations found at 18 U.S.C. section 3282 is the one applicable to prosecution of criminal violations of the Gun Control Act. If the assembly was done more than 5 years ago then the time for prosecution has run out."

Google for other hits on "922R Statue of Limitations"

Quoted: Quoted: In five years the SOL , no not Shit out of Luck, Statute of Limitations will apply and you'll no longer be able to be found guilty of it with it if it is illegal. Hmm, that's an interesting take.  It'd still make me look bad to the jury if I defended my home with it, even if I was immune to prosecution.  I suppose a good lawyer might be able to have that suppressed though. Of course, they could claim in prosecution that I had just added the magazine extension less than 5 years ago, even though I bought it that way. Do you have a link to the statute of limitations on this law? ETA: Isn't it a crime just to posess such a gun, in which case I'd always be commiting a felony?  Or would it just be a crime to buy it, either accidentally or knowingly?  I'm really not looking to break the law either way.

Yeah, unfortunately with possession violations, the Statute of Limitations is suspended until you dispose of the contraband.  If you possess an illegal firearm where "possession" is a violation, the Statute of Limitations clock will not start ticking until you are no longer in possession of it.  The statute of limitations for event violations related to manufacturing, selling, buying, importing, etc starts as soon as that event is complete. Possession is constant.

That being said, the Benelli issue is one that doesn't seem to go away.  The 5-round importation rule is a guideline, it is not an absolute law or even regulation and Benellis have been imported with more than 5-round magazine capacities for a very long time.  There are literally thousands of Benellis out there with factory magazines of over 5-rounds that were imported that way.  There are MANY factors that are considered in determining importability, mag capacity is but one and that can be outweighed by other factors.

Regarding the ATF letter posted by M4Madness at the top of this forum, this has been debunked fairly well in other threads.  While it's a real letter of course and M4Madness isn't perpetrating ANY sort of fraud or misinformation, the letter is very flawed.  First of all, it was submitted to the general ATF mailbox and routed to the wrong department entirely.  The Programs Division, being the author of this letter, is a branch of ATF that has NOTHING to do with this issue.  A letter of inquiry about 922r or other such issue regarding the technical characteristics of firearms and their legality come from ATF's Technology Branch.  This is the branch delegated with determining, among many other things, whether or not a firearm is importable or not (Import Branch simply issues the permits).  The definitive letter about adding mag extensions to a Benelli would necessarily have to come from Tech Branch.   This is akin to asking the Alcohol Division an explosives question.

Furthermore, ATF letters are not legally binding documents, they have no legal requirement to be accurate or correct.  For this reason, you usually get a response that exactly matches the original question regarding thoroughness and detail.  If you ask a quesion as simply as "Is this illegal?"  you will get, with a little exaggeration, a simplified answer on the verge of being a "Yes" or "No."  The posted letter from M4Madness is such a letter.  While we don't know what was asked, the answer is so general and so clearly a form letter that is doesn't really answer the question.  Great, the letter says adding a mag extension is illegal.  So how did so many thousands of Benellis with these mag extensions (Defense models, Tactical models, Practical models) make it into the country? Clearly there is more going on than the letter indicates. These are the facts one needs to include in a letter of determination to ATF, otherwise they will answer as they did.

Thirdly, as a comparision of the unreliability of ATF letters of determination, there is a thread in the AR forums posted regarding the legal requirement to add markings to a firearm that has been modified into an NFA firearm (SBR, SBS).  The letter (appropriately adressed to and coming from Tech Branch) states that it is not necessary to add further markings to such firearms.  Those of us who have been around the NFA block a few times knew immediately something was amiss and sure enough a follow-up letter from Tech Branch was posted to the same thread not only contradicting the first, but referencing the first as being erroneous in content.  Bascially, just because an ATF letter says something doesn't make it necessarily true or correct.  

Sometimes an ATf letter states quite the opposite, that an illegal act is in fact legal.  These mistakes can present HUGE legal problems to the addressees when they commit an illegal act with actual ATF approval. Appropriately, if you are caught in a firearms violation and have a ATF letter ADDRESSED TO YOU that you have faithfully and reasonably followed, you have yourself a bonafide defense against prosecution.  When you are caught in a firearms violation and submit a letter ADDRESSED TO SOMEONE ELSE that erroneously states the action is legal, that letter will be inadmissable.  A standard, fundemental precept of cases involving firearms violations where an ATF letter is used in defense is that the letter MUST be addressed to the defendant.  A letter addressed to someone else is assumed to be taken out-of-context and used without full-knowledge of the situation involving the actual addressee.  Phone calls, e-mails, other forms of correspondance petaining to that letter and retractions or other corrective actions cannot be fully accounted for or known to anyone but the actual addressee.  Basically, a letter addressed to someone else is great research and informative, but it cannot be used to protect you from prosecution.  If you seek ATF's opinion on some matter, you need to write your own letter even if an identical letter has been published elsewhere.

What this means is that it is illegal for M4Madness to add a mag extension, but not for anyone else (just kidding).  All I'm saying is be very careful how you use or interpret ATF letters.  Write your own, it's the only letter of value.

Interesting.  So the only crime is in the assembly of the weapon then?

So I actually wouldn't be a felon for BUYING the gun that way, because I wouldn't be the one assembling it?  That doesn't sound right.  Somehow I think I'd be breaking the law by buying one like that, or by posessing a gun like that.

Yes, a 922r violation is an event violation, it pertains to the action of assembling it, not possessing it.  You would not be prosecuted for "possessing" a 922r violating firearm.  However, what is usually overlooked here is that the weapon itself is still illegal whether or not you were the one who made it that way. The firearm itself is confiscated is these situations, you would not get it back and it would be wholly up to you to seek recourse from whoever you bought it from.  Much like stolen property.  If you bought it unknowningly, you wouldn't be violating the law, but you also don't get to keep it.

I'm not saying this benelli is illegal, I believe it's perfectly legal.  I'm just saying "possession" in not a 922r violation.

Quoted: Typical BATF nonsense. All their interpretations are as clear as mud.

and that's what kills me, gun laws saldom make any sense

why does the batf give a shit about this in the 1st place it seems pretty trivial to me.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't think the mag capacity restriction applies to fixed tube mags... Just detachable ones... Further, most of the neutered rifles that come in had 10 round, not 5 round, low-cap mags... That might 'splain it... But check out the tacked thread on the M4 in this forum.  It has a letter from the ATF which states: (paraphrasing) Importing a shotgun with a mag capacity of > 5 rounds is illegal.  Assembling one out of imported parts is a felony. This is why I'm confused.   I REALLY want to be told that the gun SW is selling is legal, because I'll probably go plunk down money on it if it is. ETA: The gun I held had an 18.5" barrel, I believe.  Could it be that the mag extension on it brought the mag total up to 5 rounds, so it's a 5+1 gun and therefore not covered by the ban?  Perhaps it was a 3 + 1 gun before the extension?  That doesn't seem right...with an 18.5" bbl and mag tube that extends to the muzzle, I'd expect it to be at least a 6 shot tube.

Both FN and Benelli import shotguns with greater than five rounds.

Quoted: Both FN and Benelli import shotguns with greater than five rounds.

Um...with pistol grip stocks?  That's the root of this question: is this gun illegal for me to own?

It sounds like I got that answered, but I guess the question now is whether it's illegal for it to have been imported / assembled, with a > 5 shot tube and a pistol grip.

Quoted: I think they aren't allowed to import a shotgun that has a > 5 capacity...

This is what I was addressing.

I own a Benelli M3.
If I buy an American made magazine extention tube and mount it on there it's legal, right?

American made.
Same number of parts that came with the shotgun when I bought it.

If someone made a collapsable stock for it and I replaced the stock imported one I would be legal, right?
American made parts replacing imported parts.

This is so confusing....

Quoted: I own a Benelli M3. If I buy an American made magazine extention tube and mount it on there it's legal, right?

Nope.  It's not about adding parts that are imported vs domestic...it's about having the min # of parts to make it import compliant.  You'd have to replace tons of parts on the gun to make it legal.

This is so confusing....

Tell me about it.  I'm going through the same thing.  I'm leaning towards just buying an SBS.

Quoted: Tell me about it.  I'm going through the same thing.  I'm leaning towards just buying an SBS.

There's your loophole right there.

Just register the Benelli M4 as an SBS, as 922(r) does not apply to NFA items. You can then legally add the working telestock and mag extension with no worries.

I'd do that with mine, but Indiana allows everything but SBS.

Quoted: Quoted: Tell me about it.  I'm going through the same thing.  I'm leaning towards just buying an SBS. There's your loophole right there. Just register the Benelli M4 as an SBS, as 922(r) does not apply to NFA items. You can then legally add the working telestock and mag extension with no worries. I'd do that with mine, but Indiana allows everything but SBS.

Bummer about Indiana.

Since you've researched this longer than I, do you know if I have to keep the short barrel on an SBS, or can I register SBS and go with the 18" barrel on it?

I'm half considering just going with a legit 14" SBS.  I think I can get a 5 + 1 + another one with the loading gate trick out of that.  7 shot gun, 14" barrel -- not bad.

Quoted: Since you've researched this longer than I, do you know if I have to keep the short barrel on an SBS, or can I register SBS and go with the 18" barrel on it? I'm half considering just going with a legit 14" SBS.  I think I can get a 5 + 1 + another one with the loading gate trick out of that.  7 shot gun, 14" barrel -- not bad.

You aren't restricted to any certain barrel length on an NFA item. You are free to use any barrel you want.