Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 1/4/2006 7:35:57 AM EDT
My dealer Impact Guns, delivered the M4 LE package as promised on 12/20. I consider myself very fortunate as only a few pieces shipped complete with the +2 mag extension(no longer available), and the barrel is the heavy magnum twin port version(not "Low Recoil" stamped).


Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:20:29 PM EDT
Very nice set-up.

I guess it's safe to assume that the BATF hasn't cracked down on Impact Guns yet for selling the LE model to civilians. I asked Benelli's customer service manager a few months ago how Impact Guns and Cal's Sporting Armory were able to sell the full-featured LE M4's to civilians when the BATF has specifically stated that it is illegal for civilians to add working telestocks or mag extensions to their M4 shotguns. His response was that these places were not supposed to be selling them to civilians. He also said that LE-marked AR-15 rifles are now legal for civilians because they are manufactured domestically, but that LE-marked Benelli shotguns are illegal for civilians because they are imported and aren't 922(r) compliant.

I just wish that they would clear up this confusing BS, as I'd like to set mine up like yours, but just don't have the balls to right now.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:04:24 PM EDT
Hi M4Madness.

I can't believe you are still sticking to your letter! We had this out months ago. I won't get into it again other than to explain what happened here:

Imported firearms that are allowed in on conditionally-approved Form 6s (Machine Guns, Silencers, Assault Weapons, and other firearms not legal or not permitted for civilian resale) are not allowed passed the importer. "Approved with conditions" would include "for sale to LE or Gov't only" or "not for resale." If a Benelli M4 1014 (like this one) was allowed in on a restricted or "approved with conditions" Form 6 (because as you insist they are illegal for civilians), that M4 would not be allowed up-sold to a Benelli dealer. Any sales of such restriced imports happen directly from the importer to the end-user. Cal's Sporting Armory, Impact Guns and everyone else would never have these in stock let alone be able to resell them if they were imported on conditional Form 6s. When Benelli tells you "they shouldn't be selling to civilians" they are not talking about law or regulation, but Benelli policy or sales culture. Benelli would probably prefer that these not be sold to civilians, much like Remington would rather not have their M24 sniper rilfes sold to civilians, though they are perfectly legal too and sold to civvies through Remington Law Enforcement Dealers. Again, if these were at all restricted as you suggest, they would never have left the Benelli warehouse other than to go to the end-user.

I hope with the unending flow of contrary evidence you might reconsider your position on this. Your ATF letter was addressed to/received from the wrong ATF department to begin with, so right from the get any response is dubious. Even if the letter was positive I'd tell you resend it to Tech Branch just to be sure. But in the end the proff is in the pudding, these are being bought and sold with reckless abandon and have been for over a decade. I would think any illegality regarding mag capacity or folding/collapsing stocks would have been stomped on long ago.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:44:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Hi M4Madness.

I can't believe you are still sticking to your letter!



Well, I guess I have to, as I've been told that it is legally binding to me anyway, as I'm the one it was addressed to.


When Benelli tells you "they shouldn't be selling to civilians" they are not talking about law or regulation, but Benelli policy or sales culture.


I'm just going by what Benelli told me. The customer service manager and I had several telephone conversations and e-mail exchanges. He specifically stated that the two companies mentioned above should not be selling the full-feature shotguns to civilians. He also stated that Special Agent Sterling Nixon, who is chief of the BATFE Firearms Technology Branch, personally paid a visit to Benelli and told them to stop selling the mag extensions. I was told that he actually seemed apologetic for the absurd notion that it was illegal to put a mag extension on a Benelli, even for the purpose of hunting snow geese. He said that the law is clear and any law enforcement professional who "looks the other way" because he thinks a law is absurd or ridiculous should turn in his badge as our society does not ask the police to enact legislation, rather it demands they enforce it. Sterling told him that he did in fact disagree with the law but he was bound to uphold it.


Your ATF letter was addressed to/received from the wrong ATF department to begin with, so right from the get any response is dubious. Even if the letter was positive I'd tell you resend it to Tech Branch just to be sure.


According to the BATF website:

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot respond to e-mail inquiries relating to technical, policy and/or legal questions. Inquiries of this nature can only be addressed through a letter outlining your questions to the following address:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226

You will receive a written response to your inquiry."


I sent the letter to where they requested.

Hey, I truly wish that this murky water would be clarified. I'd like to know 100% what's legal regarding these shotguns, as I'd like to modify mine. The only reason I discuss this with others on the board is to educate them to the fact that it isn't 100% cut and dried. After they have been informed, then they can take whichever road they choose.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:50:53 PM EDT
Jetflyer-

That is the way a Benelli M4 should look.....in all its goodness


Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:18:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 9:21:40 PM EDT by 53vortec]
SWEET!

Sounds like finding one by the time I get home may be challenging, though...

Impact's not getting any more?


You may like to know I've seen a lot of these things in use use with the Marines in Iraq- awesome weapons.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:14:10 AM EDT
I like those shotguns. I have used one and loved it. I gotta check the price of one of those.

Max
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:52:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By maxell27:
I like those shotguns. I have used one and loved it. I gotta check the price of one of those.

Max



trust me. they do rock. i went to tactical badlands to enquire about the shotgun class, and was asked about the gun to be used. they were mightly interested.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:58:36 PM EDT
I bet that left a deep hole in your pocket.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:15:42 PM EDT
www.impactguns.com/store/650350117073.html

Looks like basically $1500 + $190 for the collaps stock as an addon if they had any in stock
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:30:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:56:44 PM EDT by jetflyer]
The "crown jewel" was steal!

This is the ad that was too good to pass up, and Impact honored the price as advertised, including the +2 mag extention. Too bad that this package is NO LONGER AVAILABLE from Impact.

Benelli M4 LE Ban Free Package

This package includes everything you need to create the Ultimate Shotgun:

Benelli M4 11707 M4 Law Enforcement Shotgun with Pistol Grip and Ghost Ring Sites
Benelli M4 Collapsible Stock for Law Enforcement
Benelli M4 +2 Mag Tube Extension

Price: $1,399.97



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:02:58 PM EDT
My friend just got one pretty much just like it, shot it today! VERY NICE! We were even shooting clays with it (informally). Now I have lust for a benelli
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:19:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 4:22:51 PM EDT by GUNGUY1911]
I don't know, the ATF letter that said no was enough for me to not get one yet. If they issue one that says yes, I'm there tomorrow.

Homeinvader, just to clarify, the ATF/Customs have screwed up before, and let something in that they weren't supposed to.(AK receivers with an extra position) In the end, turn it in or go to jail was the verdict. So, I'll wait for writing just as M4 is.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:20:58 PM EDT
Nice shoty.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:23:34 PM EDT
Is the two shot extension for the M4 still being made and offered to LE?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:31:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 4:11:30 PM EDT by jetflyer]
Benelli states that it will NOW, only release the mag extension tube to an individual or group whose request is on an official law enforcement department letterhead and signed by an authorizing person.

The BATF is starting to clear up some of the ambiguity regarding the civilian ownership of this weapon with certain "evil" modifications, and Benelli is taking immediate action before fines are levied against the corporation.

The marketplace is responding seriously to this action, by asking $200-$300 for the few available ext. tubes! Just last month and prior to Benelli's new policy announcement, they could be found for $70.

Maybe Benelli M4 parts should now be listed as a "commodity" and traded for profit like corn and wheat!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:18:27 PM EDT
Can I ask a stupid question..... Couldn't an enterprising machine shop create a 2 shot extention from US steel and sell it? How much can that part really cost to manufacture? Would such and activity be legal to do? After all we make US parts for such rifles as the FAL and the H&K all the time? Seems like this two shot tube would be a great seller.

Just a thought
Gary
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:45:00 AM EDT
Here's a novel idea, why don't folks stop writing letters to BATFE so they don't get any new ideas of stuff to ban. Also, if they could stop calling/writing manufacturers to rat out dealers that are selling items to civilians, that would be nice too.

Rule of thumb, if the law is iffy, keep your mouth shut and let the more 'daring' people have fun with their guns.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:28:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:
Here's a novel idea, why don't folks stop writing letters to BATFE so they don't get any new ideas of stuff to ban. Also, if they could stop calling/writing manufacturers to rat out dealers that are selling items to civilians, that would be nice too.

Rule of thumb, if the law is iffy, keep your mouth shut and let the more 'daring' people have fun with their guns.



Some people lack such insight. Go figure.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 12:57:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 12:59:04 PM EDT by M4Madness]

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
Can I ask a stupid question..... Couldn't an enterprising machine shop create a 2 shot extention from US steel and sell it? How much can that part really cost to manufacture? Would such and activity be legal to do? After all we make US parts for such rifles as the FAL and the H&K all the time? Seems like this two shot tube would be a great seller.

Just a thought
Gary



There's more to it than that, Gary. The Benelli M1014 mag extension has been ruled to be a violation of 922(r) when installed. The country of manufacture for the extension won't matter. On the other hand, if someone were to make enough US-made parts for the M1014, then it would be considered domestic like a Remington 11-87, and we could add all the "evil" features we wanted.


Originally Posted ByHKocher:

Here's a novel idea, why don't folks stop writing letters to BATFE so they don't get any new ideas of stuff to ban. Also, if they could stop calling/writing manufacturers to rat out dealers that are selling items to civilians, that would be nice too.

Rule of thumb, if the law is iffy, keep your mouth shut and let the more 'daring' people have fun with their guns.



First, the law isn't iffy in the case of the Benelli M1014. It's imported, plain and simple. Why do you think that guys aren't building up AK variants without US parts? Imported is imported, be it a shotgun or a rifle. I'd heard a lot of arguing on both sides regarding adding "evil" features to Benelli shotguns, so I took the initiative and wrote a letter to the BATF. I don't care about those who cry about these letter rulings. These letters are NOTHING MORE than clarifications of existing laws. It's not like they are making NEW laws with them.

When it came to the Benelli M1014 shotgun, I wasn't about to just put the damned parts on it and risk losing my expensive firearms collection and the right to ever own one again over some damned 2-shot extension. If some people are so daring, they can put 'em on their shotguns regardless of what a letter says.

As for calling Benelli and "turning in dealers", it wasn't the point of the conversations anyway. We were discussing the BATF visit to Benelli and I was told that these parts were not even supposed to be sold to civilians. I then asked how places were allowed to do so, and was asked where I'd seen them for sale. Nothing more, nothing less. This conversation was AFTER Benelli had already pulled the mag extensions from their website.

As I've said many times before, I want to put these items on my shotgun just as bad as anyone else. Heck, I've still got my 2-shot extension waiting back in my gun safe.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:38:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:41:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:41:12 PM EDT by mike103]
It kills me to lock these threads about Benelli shotguns but this is a gray area and I do not have the answer.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:44:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:44:58 PM EDT by mike103]
It kills me to lock these threads about Benelli shotguns but this is a gray area and I do not have the answer.
Top Top