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Posted: 1/2/2006 7:39:26 PM EDT
What do u guys think, I have a wilson tactical 870 and was woundering if I should bother with getting the barrel done. What are the pro's and cons??Does it work?????
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:48:14 PM EDT
tagged...I want to know too....
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 1:55:12 AM EDT
Well... I sent my 870 barrel to Vang Comp in December. I received the non-ported Vang Comp System for $185 and the "Xmas special" free return shipping. Turn around time was about ten days.

The bottom line is that the Vang Comp System works. 00 Buck patterns noticeably smaller at all distances (no. I didn't compare at 3 yards). There was no reduction to accuracy when shooting slugs.

I don't know whether it's absolutely necessary but my thinking was that it reduces the chances of an errant pellet missing the primary target and injuring an inoccent.

Interestingly, as I have posted elsewhere, when I tested eight or nine different 00 Buck loads from different manufacturers after the work was done, they all patterened within half an inch of each other at twenty yards. In other words, they were all equally accurate from the inexpensive Fiocchi reduced recoil to the newest Hornady TAP.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 2:47:03 AM EDT
The ultimate assessment would be to test a barrel before and after being Vanged, under identical conditions, load lot, etc, ie, a very controlled comparison. The reality is that all the comparisons are with different guns shot side by side. With that being said, I’ve shot multiple shotguns Vanged and non-Vanged, side by side in various patterning sessions and drills at Gunsite. The 18.5 inch Vangs patterned much tighter than guns equipped with longer barrels/tighter chokes that intuitively should have patterned comparably, if not better. Obviously, there’s a point (shot distance) of diminishing returns, which will vary by load, etc. I was convinced enough by my first hand experience to buy a Vang 870P. No regrets. Hans is a pleasure to do business with as well.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 2:49:51 AM EDT
tag for later..
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:36:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:27:04 AM EDT
<-- Has a Vang.

Yes they work as claimed. Effectively what you get is tight patterns (I have downed poppers as far out as 50 yrds) and you can shoot slugs without tearing out your prized turkey choke - that right there is the avantage - not tearing out a choke that is sufficient to produce tight patterns.

Is that cost worth it to you?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 1:12:54 PM EDT
one of the other advantages I have read is reduced recoil as well.

Thoughts?

I am awaiting my Vanged barrel, should be here tomorrow.

Am looking forward to try it out.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:24:13 PM EDT
A forcing cone that is properly lengthened to 1 1/4", then polished will delay the recoil impulse compared to a barrel that doesn't. You are not physically reducing the recoil, you are changing how and when the recoil is felt.

If you are referring to the porting, porting reduces muzzle climb. Porting has absolutely nothing to do with recoil reduction. In fact, porting can actually increase felt recoil by keeping the muzzle down and driving it into your shoulder harder. I'm not referring to the Van-Comp and its porting.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:27:07 PM EDT
Exactly, my comments were directed in regards to the forcing cone modifications.

Does anyone know what Winchester and Remington set up their standard forcing cones like ?

And in terms of the polishing of the forcing cone, what is the standard methodology of doing this?
I have seen the barrel polishing hones that Brownells sells, is that the way this is done ?

Wondering if one can do a "poor man's" Vang Comp type modifcation, at least in regards to the forcing cone mods, with relatively simple tools ?

I guess this link explains why Vang Comps work
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:09:01 PM EDT
Anyone know if/how Vang marks barrels that he has modded?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:04:53 AM EDT
I don't think Vang added any markings to the outside of my barrel that would indicate he had worked on it. I'll double check when I get home this evening.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:16:34 AM EDT
On top of everything else Hans is a GREAT guy. If you call him be ready to spend some time on the phone. The last time I called, just to ask about turnaround time, I was on the phone with him for over half an hour.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:34:14 AM EDT
+1

I met Hans briefly last year at Gunsite. He is a real nice guy. The two or three times I've spoken with him on the telephone, he has indeed talked my ear off. He will be one of the instructors at Gunsite's 260 Shotgun class in March. I've already signed up!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:26:02 PM EDT
Hans is a very service oriented businessman. He personally delivered my shotty to our Gunsite class, shared some insights, and hung around to make sure it functioned properly / solicit feedback. It doesn’t get any better.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:22:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
Exactly, my comments were directed in regards to the forcing cone modifications.

Does anyone know what Winchester and Remington set up their standard forcing cones like ?

And in terms of the polishing of the forcing cone, what is the standard methodology of doing this?
I have seen the barrel polishing hones that Brownells sells, is that the way this is done ?

Wondering if one can do a "poor man's" Vang Comp type modifcation, at least in regards to the forcing cone mods, with relatively simple tools ?

I guess this link explains why Vang Comps work



Forcing cones in guns vary. Sometimes they are cut at the same time the chamber is cut; it is all done with the chamber reaming process. If this is the case, you get a 1/4" forcing cone. The last 2 Remington barrels (1-870, 1-1100) I ordered had adequately long forcing cones, but they lacked the final polish. Winchester, I'm not sure. The last Defender I had had an extremely rough bore with a lot of machining marks. I don't remember the forcing cone length.

The hones are part of the process, and they also have them at MidwayUSA. To cut a short forcing to the proper length requires a reamer. Once the length is reamed, then you use the forcing cone hones, rough grit, then fine grit. After this, I recomend using 0000 steel wool for the final step.

Hone the forcing cone first, then use bore hones on the bore.

After this, I recomend using 0000 steel wool for the final step. Oil the bore, and polish. This final "spit-shine" polish could take as long as 1 1/2 hours depending on the results you want, and the condition of the barrel befiore you started.

The "jug" or Tula choke can be done without fancy or expensive tools. It is basically an expansion chamber that is set back 1 1/2" from the muzzle that has a gentle angle leading in and out (like your new forcing cone). Before you attempt a Tula choke, do some web searches, read up on it. I might also suggest trying it on a piece of pipe or a junk barrel before you attempt it on your prize barrel.

The only other thing that the VC barrel has is porting, and that is not necessary.

Yes, you can do various stages, or all of this yourself.

Here's a for instance:
I have an NEF single shot with a factory 22" modified barrel. Birdshot was fine, but Buckshot and slugs were 8 - 12" right of where they should have been. I don't have a forcing cone reamer, so I spent a lot of time with the coarse (180 grit) forcing cone hone. I was able to stretch the forcing cone considerably. I also honed the bore. I cleaned it all thoroughly, and spun 0000 steel wool in it for quite a while. I cleaned it again. I then spun dry 0000 steel wool in the barrel which was also dry. I paid attention to the barrel heating so it wouldn't get too hot and warp. This added step "burnishes" the bore and seals the pores.

The end result made the gun shoot to point of aim with any ammo. I need to check patterns when the weather and time allow, but I am quite confident that they have improved. A bonus is that the barrel is extremely easy to clean now. A few passes with an oiled brush, patch, brush some more, patch till it's dry; that's it!

And, what is a post without pictures?! The 12gauge Tamer



2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:31:25 AM EDT
I attended Gunsite's 350 pistol course last year and we went to Vang Comp on a lunch break as he is friends with Ed Stock and Ken Campbell two of the course instructors. Hans can build a gun.! He went into detail about his modifications and I plan to send one of my 870's out to him for the full deal... He effectively adds twenty yards to your 00 buck pattern and reduces the recoil that you feel. I've never thought 12Ga kicked hard (I'm a big guy) but the speed you gain in getting to the next target is worth it. As for slugs... It'll become a combat grade rifle out to 100 yards.. It just shoots an ounce at a time rather than 55gr...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:51:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 9:15:14 AM EDT by cmeyer001]
Vang-Comp 18.5 barrel, Remington 870
55 ft from muzzle to target, plus or minus 2 ft.
Targets are IPSC standard paper practice targets

Listed in order of tightest group, YMMV

Hornady TAP


Remington Low Recoil


Federal Tactical


Winchester Ranger (target ripped from falling over)


For my money I am stocking up on the TAP buckshot, and I definitely think the VCS is worth it.
I highly recommend.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:34:04 AM EDT
Did you measure the size of those patterns? Curious.

2guntom
454 Casull +

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:35:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 9:09:12 AM EDT by cmeyer001]
Unfortunately not, I put the shell casing against the target for rough approximations.

I have another 18.5" barrel on the way, non Vang Comped, going to do the test again.

Next time at 25 yards, with a chronograph and will take measurements

Wont be totally scientific as it should have been done before and after with same barrel, but I think will still be informative.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:12:16 AM EDT
Okay, cool. I'm curious to see your measured results. I don't have a chrono, but I need to repattern all my guns after the barrel work I've done. I'd like to compare my findings against yours.

Just curious.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:16:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 9:17:05 AM EDT by cmeyer001]
I will post on this thread, if I can still find it when the next test is complete.

If this thread is archived, will make a new posting titled Vang Comp VCS test results.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
On top of everything else Hans is a GREAT guy. If you call him be ready to spend some time on the phone. The last time I called, just to ask about turnaround time, I was on the phone with him for over half an hour.



I can second this. Hans is a good man, and he builds a hell of a shotgun.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:47:08 AM EDT
I'm getting ready to send off an 870P barrel to have the Vang comp system done on it. While I'm sold on the benefits of the internal work I've been following arguments back and forth regarding the porting on the barrel. I'm still undecided as to whether I want it done or not.

The real question for me is whether or not the porting is valuable enough to warrant the extra cost and added noise level. VC swears up and down it is but a number of individuals disagree.

One 870P I have already has the forcing cone lengthened by the previous owner. That alone was significant enough to change the felt recoil to me. It turned it into a much smoother feeling recoil than standard 870's it was shot against. This leads me to better understand where the individuals are coming from that state their Vang comp'd shotguns without porting still seem to sit there relatively flat during shooting.

I'm not against spending the $240 for the full job with ports vs spending the $185 for just the internal work. It's not about money but about noise and performance level.

Regarding finding this thread for followup testing, would it be possible for cmeyer001 to save this thread to his "favorites" and then be able to call it up for additional information to be added without having to worry about the search feature?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:55:22 AM EDT
At the bottom of the thread there's a "Subscribe" button. By pushing that you will receive an email when somebody posts. If you save one of the emails, you will have a direct link to this thread. That's about the only way I can keep up with the good topics.

The temp is 61 here right now and the sun is shining. I'd love to be out patterning my guns right now, but the wind is too stiff (23mph gusting to 30). Instead, I'm still trying to find anything relative to this stupid Atis semiauto shotgun I'm trying to fix.

Life goes on...

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 11:03:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1001001:
I'm getting ready to send off an 870P barrel to have the Vang comp system done on it. While I'm sold on the benefits of the internal work I've been following arguments back and forth regarding the porting on the barrel. I'm still undecided as to whether I want it done or not.

The real question for me is whether or not the porting is valuable enough to warrant the extra cost and added noise level. VC swears up and down it is but a number of individuals disagree.

One 870P I have already has the forcing cone lengthened by the previous owner. That alone was significant enough to change the felt recoil to me. It turned it into a much smoother feeling recoil than standard 870's it was shot against. This leads me to better understand where the individuals are coming from that state their Vang comp'd shotguns without porting still seem to sit there relatively flat during shooting.

I'm not against spending the $240 for the full job with ports vs spending the $185 for just the internal work. It's not about money but about noise and performance level.

Regarding finding this thread for followup testing, would it be possible for cmeyer001 to save this thread to his "favorites" and then be able to call it up for additional information to be added without having to worry about the search feature?



Porting vents gasses upward to keep the muzzle from climbing. It does absolutely nothing to reduce recoil.

In theory, porting could increase felt recoil. For every action there is an equal, but opposite reaction. 12 gauge shells produce some of the most profound recoil in firearms. If the barrel can't go up as the gun is propelled rearward, then (in theory) all of the energy is transferred in the gun moving rearward. Ie., some of the recoil energy is spent throwing the muzzle up, the rest is spent throwing the gun into your shoulder. So if the gun can't travel up, then all of the energy is expelled going back.

Again, this is theory.

A properly ported barrel is supposed to reduce muzzle flip/climb. This should make follow up shots faster by reducing the time to acquire or re-acquire targets. This is handy for those that shoot competively. The placement, spacing, diameter, and angle of the ports matter. The length of the barrel, the weight of the gun, and the types of shells used should be considered, and have bearing on how the porting should be done.

I have tried several factory ported barrels and have noticed no advantage. In fact, a factory ported barrel was used here yesterday. I didn't notice any additional noise. It was a Mossberg 835 with 24" barrel. There was also a 20" non-ported barrel gun, and a 28" non-ported barrel gun being fired. The only difference in noise and report between the three was the power of the shells being fired.

One thing that I do despise about ported barrels is when it comes time to clean them. All the little holes spit oil and solvents everywhere. Nasty!

If you want to reduce felt recoil, invest in a quality stock that fits you, and use a quality recoil pad. Most buttstocks are designed for the "average" shooter, but I have yet to meet this guy. Most stocks are too long or too short, the drop is wrong, the pistolgrip to long/short, whatever.

I have been experimenting on my 870 for about 10 years. I think I finally have it maximized for comfort and use.



The pistolgrip buttstock gives me more control. This also creates 2 points of recoil absorbsion (hand and shoulder) instead of just one. The recoil pad is a LimbSaver. The shell holder on the stock provides counterbalance to offset the weight of the gun. It had a receiver mounted side saddle at one point, but that added too much weight ahead of the pistolgrip for good balance. It was removed.

That is a Remington brand barrel. It is 20", has rifle sights, and screw-in chokes. The forcing cone was adequately long from the factory, but needed a little "spit-shine" polishing to suit my tastes. The bore was already polished, but I went over it any way. With the Modified screw-in choke, I have noticed much smaller patterns utilizing buchshot at 25 yards. I have acquired an extended Modified choke for testing to see if it enhances the patterns.

In a fair exchange and to promote the sharing of info, I need to fire and measure patterns for more conclusive tests. From what I have tested thus far, a screw-in rifled choke produces much tighter groups than and I.C. screw-in choke, or a factory 18" fixed I.C. choke barrel. The rifled choke tube allowed me to overlap slug holes at 25 yards. This was from a sitting position, not a bench.

The slugs I fired were all Foster type in Remington 1oz 2 3/4", Winchester 1oz 2 3/4" and 3". I have recently added Remington 7/8oz 2 3/4", but haven't tried them yet. Speed isn't everything, but that 1800fps muzzle velocity caught my eye and made me buy them.

The point in this- you seem to be interested in recoil reduction and performance. I'm 6'1" and 160lbs. Recoil effects me greatly and performance is very important. Everything I've done to mine has made it more comfortable to shoot, and the patterns are greatly improved. My advice, get the barrel done, but skip the porting. Take the money you saved and use it on a good stock and recoil pad. With what's left, BUY AMMO.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 11:19:24 AM EDT
Hans did my pre-Wilson Scatterguns Tech. Standard model about 8 years ago. It is the ONLY shotgun I have kept over the years. It loves Winchester low-recoil tactical 00. No muzzle rise and rips the center out of the silhouettes at 25 yards.

Money well spent.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:09:59 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:05:51 PM EDT
i have a vang'd barrel, ported and back bored. i didn't do any official testing, it does as advertised. shooting slugs, i have done some very impressive groups past 50yards, iron sights.

my 870 also has the knoxx spec-ops. it is a pure pleasure to shoot.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 8:33:29 PM EDT
In a low light or night time situation, does not the porting cause a dangerous blinding flash of light? I mean the muzzle flash now goes up via the ports in addition to out the muzzle!
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:58:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
In a low light or night time situation, does not the porting cause a dangerous blinding flash of light? I mean the muzzle flash now goes up via the ports in addition to out the muzzle!



No.

(I shoot several thousand rounds in the dark a year)

Shooting in the dark: issues associated with flash are highly over rated. The issue is smoke. Smoke lingers. Fire several smokey rounds indoors with little ventalation and then shine you white light at the target - you merely illuminate the wall of smoke in front of you. Flash goes away instantly. Being blinded by flash is really only an issue in very low light with a rifle at the extreme edge of what you can see given the lighting conditions (think 300 yrds and a single set of vehicle headlights). Even then it is only an issue for follow up shots and the issue is it becomes progressively harder to force your eyes to focus on a fine point of aim at the given distance.

At 50 yrds or less - flash is not the issue.

Have a white light (or NV) if you intend / think you may have to make a shot in the dark.

Good luck
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 10:51:14 AM EDT
Flash is orange/red, which is very easy on the eyes.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:17:36 AM EDT
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