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Posted: 12/14/2005 8:02:52 AM EDT
Send it......
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:14:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:18:59 AM EDT by dfariswheel]
For what application.....
Fighting outdoors at long distances.

Shooting at bad guys inside a car.

Down the hallway at a burglar.

Breaching doors.

Shooting at body armor-equipped bad guys.

For military-type combat operations.

Guarding a commercial store from armed robbers.

For defending an isolated country house.

For defending an in-town house with neighbors.

For defending a thin-walled apartment.

For defending against dogs.

For defending against bears.

??????????

No one load will do it all. You have to have some idea of just what the "probable" threats are going to be.
If you're living in a thin-walled apartment house and the probable threat is a break in by a single burglar, you don't prepare to face a mass attack by drug-crazed motorcycle gangs.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:38:17 PM EDT
How about you take the list you just supplyed and tell us your opinions on what ammo you would use.

Jess
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:42:53 PM EDT
For home defense shit hit the fan type stuff it is hard to beat 9 pellet 00 Buck.
Fiochii makes a 00 Buck with 8 pellets and it has (obviously) less recoil and a tighter group.
Some of the other Buckshot loads like 0 and #4 are pretty good.
In some situations I would want 1oz slugs.

In a real SHTF situation I would only be worrying about my family and me.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:57:53 PM EDT
But also remember that buckshot and slug will go through sheetrock. Check out the Box O' Truth. in a hallway, a load of #6 or #7 will do the trick without endangering the family behind the wall. Of course it depends on the setup of your house.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:26:29 AM EDT
The worrys about #6-#9 is that the penatratil value is WAY to low.. i personally have been hit by ricocet from birdeshot and barely felt it.. MAYBIE the force of a red rider /w ricocet... now with that in mind i feel that birdshot would do damnage but not enough to stop someone... IE shot to the chest would just leave a superfisal wound on the service of the rib cage.


i used to feel the same way about birdshot myself
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:10:36 AM EDT
For SHTF 00 or 000 Buck is the supreme choice, especially when supplemented with slugs.
For home defense, it depends on your living situation and philosophy. Over penetration is a serious concern where I live thus any buckshot will likely cause collateral damage. Bird shot is for the birds as it lacks the penetration to make mortal wounds at all but muzzle distances. It makes nasty, messy wounds but gross doesn't always equal fatal. I personally use 2 3/4 BBB for HD.
It has a number of adequately sized pellets to penetrate deep enough to be lethal but doesn't have the size or density to penetrate multiple walls/doors. Testing has shown that it is an excellent HD loading. Other considerations would be BB, T or F shot in 2 3/4 inch loads. Steel shot will be

capable of providing adequate penetration at HD distances, provided the pellets are large enough.
Steel shot doesn't have the density of lead or other shots so its ability to penetrate subsequent walls or doors is further reduced. T and F are excellent alternatives to 1 buck for HD work. The only drawback to these loads is that they have a tenedency to spread rapidly out of a short barrel, at least compared to buckshot. The pellets are too small to be individually effective, so a proper pattern is essential to the effectivness of these rounds. It patterns just fine for HD work out of my 20 inch IC 870 PMAG. Pattern testing with these rounds should be a pre-requsite before using them as a defensive round. Another drawback is availibility in some seasons/locales. They have alot to offer and their possible use warrants evaluation.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:23:06 AM EDT
OK, to make things a little bit clearer than HD/SHTF, I live in a house with a neighbor on one side. Primary concern would be guarding the interior against intruders. What do you think about the reduced recoil rounds? I'm thinking the first 2 shells would be RR followed by 00. Also, has anyone used an EOTech on their HD shotgun? I have one on my AR and am wondering if it would serve a purpose on a shotgun or just get in the way.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:13:41 PM EDT
That's more clear.
You're "Real World" situation is, you have a regular house with one close neighbor, and your "most likely" situation would be one or two intruders entering the home.

In that situation, your most effective gun would probably a standard 18" gun, fitted with the standard stock, with your personal preference of with or without a magazine extender, and "possibly' fitted with a light.
No AR-15 type stock, and no sights of any sort would really be needed or particularly useful.
Adding a side saddle would add unnecessary bulk, and would restrict your vision too much.

Your best ammo load would be standard #00, #1, or #4 buckshot, in either a reduced recoil or standard velocity load. NO Magnums or slugs.

MANY people are going with the Reduced Recoil in either #00 or in #4.

For whatever reason, the Reduced Recoil in #00 seems to be emerging as the best seller for the cartridge companies and the #4 is disappearing.
Remington has discontinued their #4 load and now only makes #00.
Unfortunately, no one is making a reduced recoil load of #1 buck, which might be the ultimate HD load of them all.

At typical defense ranges, the reduced recoil ammo is just as effective as standard loads, and the lesser recoil allows faster follow-up shots.

Whether you go with reduced #00 or #4, or buy standard buck loads in a good compromise like #1, is strictly a matter of personal choice.

Electronic sights on a true home defense gun really have no place.
First, they add an unnecessary complication to the gun.
Second, electronic sights always seem to fail JUST as your front door is kicked in.
Third, NO sight, electronic or not is as fast as "pointing" a shot gun.

Truth is, an electronic sight is actually slower than shooting a shotgun as it was intended to be, and it's just one more thing that can go wrong.

In real defense guns the KISS principle rules..... Keep It Simple, Stupid, and.... Simpler is Better.

Bottom line: In your case a more or less box-stock pump gun loaded with either standard or reduced recoil ammo in #00, #1, or #4 is as good as it gets.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:19:26 PM EDT
Looks like a job for the shotgun round of truth ?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:38:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Anarx:
How about you take the list you just supplyed and tell us your opinions on what ammo you would use.

Jess



Here goes: This is STRICTLY personal opinion.

Fighting outdoors at long distances.
A "dutch load" of mixed slugs and #00 buckshot. Both carry farther and still hit hard.

Shooting at bad guys inside a car.
In all likelihood a car incident would be either getting a car stopped, or firing at an escaping car.
In either case, you design your Dutch Load to match the circumstances.
As example, you're likely to be facing a road block situation.
You'd probably want the first rounds out to be slugs to penetrate the tires and radiator to stop it, and to penetrate the body.
As the occupants bail out, you'd use #1 or possibly #4 for the close-range hit capability.
As they escape and the ranges open up, you'd go to #00.

Down the hallway at a burglar.
Probably a reduced recoil load of your choice of #00 or #4.

Breaching doors.
A special "Door Knocker" breaching charge for the hinges and lock, Dutch loaded with one of the buckshot loads for once the door is open.

Shooting at body armor-equipped bad guys.
Slugs or #00 buck. These probably won't penetrate good body armor, but will knock them out of the fight for the near future.

For military-type combat operations.
The military standard of a full charge load of #00 buck.
The longer shots are going to be handled by the riflemen and machine gunners.
The shotgunner is the entry man.

Guarding a commercial store from armed robbers.
Reduced recoil #00. Reduced recoil allows for faster follow-up shots, and the #00 will penetrate isle displays better if things go static.

For defending an isolated country house.
Standard loads of #00 and slugs.

For defending an in-town house with neighbors.
Reduced recoil loads of #00 or #4.

For defending a thin-walled apartment.
ANYTHING that can be fired out a gun barrel can and WILL penetrate ANY interior wall.
The only walls that will reliably stop almost ANY shotgun pellet are exterior walls made of brick or cinder block.
For that reason, you just have to do the best you can, and be willing to take extra chances to protect your neighbors.
For this reason, a reduced recoil load of #4 is probably the best compromise.
As someone else has said, "Bird shot is for birds"
Yes it makes awful, gaping, bloody holes, but awful looking doesn't mean it'll STOP someone.
Bird shot WILL NOT reliably penetrate deep enough to involve vital organs, and insure a fast shutdown.

For defending against dogs.
REALLY defending against dogs means close range. Reduced recoil #00 or #4.

For defending against bears.
Slugs, OR, strangely, heavy BIRD SHOT.

While I DO NOT subscribe to this, one old time lumber jack in the Pacific Northwest said that the favored anti-bear defense wasn't to kill the bear.
To quote him "Ya, da bear he is a pain. Ve ust shoot dem in da face wid bird shot until day go blind or run avay".
I personally took that with a large grain of salt, BUT this old timer had spent his life in the woods with Pacific Grizzly bears.

So, these are my opinions. Have at it..............
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:28:48 PM EDT
WOW! Your post's have been abolutely amazing. Very informative and exactly what I have been looking for. Thank you very much. I seems somewhat rare around here to find someone that is willing to reply with a very well thought out, long and extremely intelligent answer to a very broad subject. Once again, Thanks!

I have a few more questions!
Just so you know the gun i'll be using: I'll be receiving a FN TPS in a few days.

1. I noticed that magnum shells are really not reccomended for any of these situations. Whats the deal with the magnum's?
2. What size of rounds? 2 3/4 or 3in?
3. Who make's the best rounds for each of the loads listed above?

Thanks in advance for any replys.

R7
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:05:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 9:15:32 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
First, "Magnum" means something QUITE different in shotguns than in rifles and pistols.

In rifles and pistols, Magnum means more POWER.
Magnum rifles and pistols have more powder to increase velocity and power.

In shotguns it means more SHOT.
What "Magnum" means in shotguns is that the shell contains more pellets of shot.
The idea is, the more shot you put out, the better the chances you'll get hits on game at longer ranges.

To do that, the manufactures increase the powder charge, but this is only because they have to simply to shoot the shot the SAME speed as standard loads.
Heavier shot loads REQUIRE more powder just to keep the same speeds due to the higher weight of the shot load.
In a Magnum shotgun, you may actually get slightly LESS "power".

Where Magnum shot shells come into their own is in hunting game.
High flying geese, or tough turkeys at a distance are more reliably killed when there's more shot coming their way.
The more shot, the better the CHANCE of getting fatal hits on the bird.
The shot doesn't hit any "harder" and it doesn't go any farther.

In a defense gun, Magnum shells don't "kill" any better than even reduced recoil shells.
The extra shot really doesn't give better results since the shotgun is already firing a massive load to start with.
Magnum shells are somewhat a case of "over kill".

Next, due to the heavier load of lead, and more powder required to simply keep the same velocity, RECOIL is drastically increased.
Standard loads of buckshot give the shooter a real beating, and Magnum loads are into the masochist range.

This increased recoil actually slows your follow-up shots down rather drastically, and in addition, you take such a beating you're none too steady.
The use of standard and especially reduced recoil loads allows you to shoot much faster.

Magnum loads come in standard 2 3/4" length as well as the Magnum 3", and the new Super Magnum 3 1/2" length.

In 2 3/4" length a typical Magnum load of #00 buckshot will contain 12 pellets to a standard load of 9.
It's those extra 3 pellets, and the extra powder charge needed to push them, that causes recoil to skyrocket.

For most actual defense use, the standard load of non-Magnum shells work perfectly.
As one person put it, "A bad guy will not be able to tell if he was hit with three extra pellets or just 9".

Many people are now using the new reduced recoil ammo.
Due to women and smaller men police, these smaller cops were taking such a beating from even standard loads of buckshot, that in many cases they were leaving the shotgun in the car, when they should have been using it.

To insure the police would use the more effective shotgun, reduced recoil shells were introduced.
There are two types of these.
One type reduces recoil by reducing the number of pellets. A reduced load of #00 would have 8 pellets instead of the standard 9.

The other type keeps the number of pellets the same, but slightly reduces the amount of powder.

Remington says that their Law Enforcement reduced recoil load with 8 #00 pellets reduces actual recoil by 40%.

In brands of shot shells, I recommend high-quality American brands like Remington, Winchester, and Federal for actual defense use.

One danger of leaving a pump shotgun loaded long term isn't weakened springs, like most people think.
The real danger is shot shell compression.
The constant pressure of the spring on the column of shells causes the sides of the shells to develop bulges between the shell head and the shot column.
The bulged shells can cause feed and ejection problems.

The only real preventive is to shoot up the old ammo that's been in the gun, and do it reasonably often.

I've found that premium American shells seem to stand up to long term compression better than foreign brands.

What brand you use is entirely up to you. The premium brands are all pretty well equal in quality.

For practice, you can use cheap stuff but be aware that most current problems people have with shotguns is caused by failure to clean the chamber, especially on a new gun, and shooting budget shells.

It seems the combination of a fouled chamber and cheap ammo causes failure to extract.

For actual defense use, I've always thought that the absolute BEST was barely adequate.

I don't use the cheap $3.00 hard hat, I don't wear the cheap discount house life jacket, and I don't load my life-saver with "Billy Bob's $1.25 a box" ammo.

My sugestion is an American-made premium 2 3/4" load of standard or reduced recoil buckshot, in your personal choice of #00, #1, or #4.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 2:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:

Originally Posted By Anarx:
How about you take the list you just supplyed and tell us your opinions on what ammo you would use.

Jess



Here goes: This is STRICTLY personal opinion.

Fighting outdoors at long distances.
A "dutch load" of mixed slugs and #00 buckshot. Both carry farther and still hit hard.

Shooting at bad guys inside a car.
In all likelihood a car incident would be either getting a car stopped, or firing at an escaping car.
In either case, you design your Dutch Load to match the circumstances.
As example, you're likely to be facing a road block situation.
You'd probably want the first rounds out to be slugs to penetrate the tires and radiator to stop it, and to penetrate the body.
As the occupants bail out, you'd use #1 or possibly #4 for the close-range hit capability.
As they escape and the ranges open up, you'd go to #00.

Down the hallway at a burglar.
Probably a reduced recoil load of your choice of #00 or #4.

Breaching doors.
A special "Door Knocker" breaching charge for the hinges and lock, Dutch loaded with one of the buckshot loads for once the door is open.

Shooting at body armor-equipped bad guys.
Slugs or #00 buck. These probably won't penetrate good body armor, but will knock them out of the fight for the near future.

For military-type combat operations.
The military standard of a full charge load of #00 buck.
The longer shots are going to be handled by the riflemen and machine gunners.
The shotgunner is the entry man.

Guarding a commercial store from armed robbers.
Reduced recoil #00. Reduced recoil allows for faster follow-up shots, and the #00 will penetrate isle displays better if things go static.

For defending an isolated country house.
Standard loads of #00 and slugs.

For defending an in-town house with neighbors.
Reduced recoil loads of #00 or #4.

For defending a thin-walled apartment.
ANYTHING that can be fired out a gun barrel can and WILL penetrate ANY interior wall.
The only walls that will reliably stop almost ANY shotgun pellet are exterior walls made of brick or cinder block.
For that reason, you just have to do the best you can, and be willing to take extra chances to protect your neighbors.
For this reason, a reduced recoil load of #4 is probably the best compromise.
As someone else has said, "Bird shot is for birds"
Yes it makes awful, gaping, bloody holes, but awful looking doesn't mean it'll STOP someone.
Bird shot WILL NOT reliably penetrate deep enough to involve vital organs, and insure a fast shutdown.

For defending against dogs.
REALLY defending against dogs means close range. Reduced recoil #00 or #4.

For defending against bears.
Slugs, OR, strangely, heavy BIRD SHOT.

While I DO NOT subscribe to this, one old time lumber jack in the Pacific Northwest said that the favored anti-bear defense wasn't to kill the bear.
To quote him "Ya, da bear he is a pain. Ve ust shoot dem in da face wid bird shot until day go blind or run avay".
I personally took that with a large grain of salt, BUT this old timer had spent his life in the woods with Pacific Grizzly bears.

So, these are my opinions. Have at it..............




Thank you for your Reply.. its one of the things that i have been waiting to hear someone just sate what he feels would be a good load out.. i think i'll go out this weekend and buy sevral boxs of differnt kinds of ammo for some testing and keep it around for HD...

Jess
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