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Posted: 12/12/2005 7:38:40 PM EDT
I'm looking to outfit myself with a pump shotgun for use here in NYC in case of "emergencies." Due to tactical and legal considerations, it seems the way to go.

Legal considerations:

Magazine size for rifles and shotguns limited to FIVE STINKING ROUNDS!

Semi-auto anything is highly restricted - no "evil features" allowed at all on semis, and some seemingly conforming semis banned by name! Sure I could get a Garand with 5-rounders but I don't want to fire off .30-06 rounds in a neighborhood if I can help it.

Tactical considerations:

Short ranges inside the house (30' max)
Short lines of sight outside the house (150' max)
Given the mag capacity, maximum damage per shot is desired
Should be handy to wield

Based on this, I'm looking for something like a Remington 870 with 18" barrel and a Knoxx Spec-ops stock, and a surefire light. Perhaps a Knoxx sidewinder with the 6 round mags blocked to 5 rounds, and an eotech to top the whole thing off. The sidewinder would reguire a mossberg instead of the Remington, and I'm not crazy about $50 each for magazines...

Thoughts?


Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:15:05 PM EDT
I'd take a GOOD look at the Remington Express Synthetic with an 18" barrel.
Remington used to sell this as the "Home Defense" but now sells it as simply an Express.
www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_18inch.asp

The stock is synthetic, the magazine holds 4 rounds, and you can add a ONE SHOT extension from Wilson's for a total magazine capacity of 5 rounds, plus one in the chamber.
Best of all, the barrel is Cylinder Bore, that is no choke at all, which is good for true short range home defense guns.

A good "rule of thumb" on shotguns is, the shot spreads at "about" One inch per yard distance from the muzzle.
In other words at 6 yards (18 feet) you have about a 6-7 inch pattern.
That's not much, and is why you have to actually do more than just point the barrel in vaguely the general direction of the target like in the movies.
In a true HD shotgun, you don't necessarily WANT a tight patterning gun.

The MOST handy to wield shotgun of them all is the STANDARD no frills and no "Hollywood" accessories or add-ons basic shotgun with a standard stock.
What makes the shotgun SO devastating at close range is SPEED. The speed at which you can get the gun on target and get hits.

Anything that you add to the gun slows you down due to bulk and weight.
ANYTHING you add on requires a "real world" cost-benefit analysis. In other words, if you add something, it's going to slow the gun down.
What EXACTLY is the "real world" benefit of the addition, and does that benefit out weight the reduction in speed?

Wanna add an electronic sight?
What's the real world benefit?
It it worth the reduction in speed? There's GOING to be a reduction speed, because NO electronic sight is as fast as "pointing" a shotgun.
Is it worth the reduction in reliability of defense?
Remember, the more complicated you make something, the less reliable it is.
Electronic sights are nice on "range toys and Hollywood" guns, but tend to fail JUST as your front door comes down.

You have to decide WHAT you want.
Do you want a totally reliable life-saving defense gun, or do you really want a range toy to play with?

If you want a life-preserver, the KISS principle holds...Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Want a range toy to play with and impress the guys at the range? Accessorize away, just don't trust your life to it.

For maximum damage, you don't have to worry about it.
The shotgun is the most effective and deadly firearm in the world at short range, and you have NO need of "trick ammo" or Magnum, Blow Down the Barn Door loads.

Many people are going to the new Reduced Recoil ammo. This reduces recoil by either cutting the powder charge, or reducing the number of buckshot by a pellet.
This stuff is just as effective at shotgun ranges, but gives you less of a pounding, AND speeds up your follow-up shots.
Remember, in shotguns Speed Kills... the bad guys.

What NOT to use is the standard Internet-recommended 3" or even 2 3/4" Magnum loads, the bird shot loads, or the slugs.
Stick with standard or reduced recoil loads of #4 buckshot through #00 buckshot.
Remember, NOTHING says "Stop that, leave us alone" like a load of buckshot.

Bottom line: My recommendation is, buy a Remington 870.
If you can afford it, buy a Police model just for the better fit, finish, and quality. If not, buy a Remington 870 Express with the 18" cylinder bore barrel.
Add a one shot extension, but only if you MUST. It's VERY unlikely you'll need more than 4 or 5 rounds of buckshot to solve any possible problems.

Forget the electronic sights, they have no really valid place on a true home defense gun.

If you have problems with recoil, and think you need a shock absorbing stock, save your money and keep the gun simple by buying a Remington R3 recoil pad and reduced recoil buckshot.

Most users of the R3 report the gun feels like it's shooting Dove & Quail light loads, and the factory says it cuts felt recoil by as much as 30%.
The reduced recoil ammo can cut actual recoil by 40%.

Buy a SIMPLE gun, buy LOTS of ammo and practice. That's more important than all the accessories and gimmicks in the world.


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:42:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:38:28 AM EDT



Based on this, I'm looking for something like a Remington 870 with 18" barrel and a Knoxx Spec-ops stock, and a surefire light.





the above should suit your needs quite well
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:47:32 AM EDT
I'm not in the city, but not far from it either. I have a totally basic 870 express, 18" cylinder bore barrel, synthetic stock with extended mag tube. I started with a folding Butler Creek plastic stock, but swapped it out for the standard Remington synthetic before I even took it to the range. There's no restriction on capacity where I am, except for fowl hunting, and I've seen guys limit the capacity of their (Mossberg) shotguns with a wooden dowel behind the follower - I don't know if that's enough (legally) for the city.

At the range, I've had no problem getting on-target quickly and effectively with standard front bead sights at various distances with both 00 and #4 buckshot, and follow-up shots are fine. Patterning is really important to do at distances typical in and around your home (I measured my floorplan and set up at the range accordingly). It's a shotgun... it's going to kick... but with some range time and good form it's not unmanageable, even in a factory standard configuration.

I found training with snap-caps in my home to be very useful, both for finding the best places to shoot from in each room (even an 18" barrel can make it awkward to turn around with furniture in the way) and for getting familiar with the weapon. Buy some snap-caps (I got plastic ones) and train with loading, unloading, purposefully jamming and clearing with eyes open or closed and as fast as practical or as quietly as possible.

For accessories, I've thought about a surefire forend, but it's lower on my list of priorities. I have a sling, but not attached to the gun when it's in the house, I also have an elastic shell carrier on the buttstock, but that's more for a grab-and-go situation than basic HD. Good luck - it's a great gun!

-F7
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:08:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
I'd take a GOOD look at the Remington Express Synthetic with an 18" barrel.
Remington used to sell this as the "Home Defense" but now sells it as simply an Express.
www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_synthetic_18inch.asp

The stock is synthetic, the magazine holds 4 rounds, and you can add a ONE SHOT extension from Wilson's for a total magazine capacity of 5 rounds, plus one in the chamber.
Best of all, the barrel is Cylinder Bore, that is no choke at all, which is good for true short range home defense guns.

A good "rule of thumb" on shotguns is, the shot spreads at "about" One inch per yard distance from the muzzle.
In other words at 6 yards (18 feet) you have about a 6-7 inch pattern.
That's not much, and is why you have to actually do more than just point the barrel in vaguely the general direction of the target like in the movies.
In a true HD shotgun, you don't necessarily WANT a tight patterning gun.

The MOST handy to wield shotgun of them all is the STANDARD no frills and no "Hollywood" accessories or add-ons basic shotgun with a standard stock.
What makes the shotgun SO devastating at close range is SPEED. The speed at which you can get the gun on target and get hits.

Anything that you add to the gun slows you down due to bulk and weight.
ANYTHING you add on requires a "real world" cost-benefit analysis. In other words, if you add something, it's going to slow the gun down.
What EXACTLY is the "real world" benefit of the addition, and does that benefit out weight the reduction in speed?

Wanna add an electronic sight?
What's the real world benefit?
It it worth the reduction in speed? There's GOING to be a reduction speed, because NO electronic sight is as fast as "pointing" a shotgun.
Is it worth the reduction in reliability of defense?
Remember, the more complicated you make something, the less reliable it is.
Electronic sights are nice on "range toys and Hollywood" guns, but tend to fail JUST as your front door comes down.

You have to decide WHAT you want.
Do you want a totally reliable life-saving defense gun, or do you really want a range toy to play with?

If you want a life-preserver, the KISS principle holds...Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Want a range toy to play with and impress the guys at the range? Accessorize away, just don't trust your life to it.

For maximum damage, you don't have to worry about it.
The shotgun is the most effective and deadly firearm in the world at short range, and you have NO need of "trick ammo" or Magnum, Blow Down the Barn Door loads.

Many people are going to the new Reduced Recoil ammo. This reduces recoil by either cutting the powder charge, or reducing the number of buckshot by a pellet.
This stuff is just as effective at shotgun ranges, but gives you less of a pounding, AND speeds up your follow-up shots.
Remember, in shotguns Speed Kills... the bad guys.

What NOT to use is the standard Internet-recommended 3" or even 2 3/4" Magnum loads, the bird shot loads, or the slugs.
Stick with standard or reduced recoil loads of #4 buckshot through #00 buckshot.
Remember, NOTHING says "Stop that, leave us alone" like a load of buckshot.

Bottom line: My recommendation is, buy a Remington 870.
If you can afford it, buy a Police model just for the better fit, finish, and quality. If not, buy a Remington 870 Express with the 18" cylinder bore barrel.
Add a one shot extension, but only if you MUST. It's VERY unlikely you'll need more than 4 or 5 rounds of buckshot to solve any possible problems.

Forget the electronic sights, they have no really valid place on a true home defense gun.

If you have problems with recoil, and think you need a shock absorbing stock, save your money and keep the gun simple by buying a Remington R3 recoil pad and reduced recoil buckshot.

Most users of the R3 report the gun feels like it's shooting Dove & Quail light loads, and the factory says it cuts felt recoil by as much as 30%.
The reduced recoil ammo can cut actual recoil by 40%.

Buy a SIMPLE gun, buy LOTS of ammo and practice. That's more important than all the accessories and gimmicks in the world.





You sound like you've given it a lot of thought. Thanks for the advice. Any reason why the standard stock would be quicker to point? On the rifles I've used with pistol grips, they seem much handier than the "standard" grip.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:10:09 AM EDT
Is the NYC limit for 5 rounds in the magazine or 5 rounds total, including the chamber?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:11:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mike103:
The above post by D-wheel is the pratical advise that we can count on him giving every time.

The only thing that I can add is that if I were a NYC resident I would also buy a Ruger Mini-14. Five rounds of 12 gauge buckshot and five rounds of .223 is a whole lot of firepower to bring to a real world gunfight. After that apply for a pistol permit. I know it is a lot of trouble and expense but don't let the fuckers keep you from owning a gun. MIKE.



I'd buy one too, except the Mini-14 is banned specifically by name in the city.
For rifle needs I was looking at the weird pump-action 5.56 carbine that remington makes, that takes AR15 mags. You can get those in 5-round, and I can stash some big ones at friends' houses out of the city for range use. That or go ahead and get the Garand, and make sure I hit the target.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:14:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BridgerNY:
Is the NYC limit for 5 rounds in the magazine or 5 rounds total, including the chamber?



Mag. The law specifically bans "shotgun or rifle ammunition feeding devices with a capacity greater than 5 rounds" or somesuch, so 5+1 is ok.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:36:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:59:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:32:33 PM EDT
^^
The mini14 falls afoul of their definition of assault weapon:

From www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm


For City of New York: Title 38 of the Rules of the City of New York, § 17-01. Assault Weapons Designated. (a) Pursuant to Subparagraph 7 of Paragraph a of Subdivision 16 of § 10-301 of the New York City Administrative Code, the following makes and models of weapons are determined to be particularly suitable for military and not sporting purposes and are determined to be within the statutory definition of assault weapon as set forth in § 10?301(16) of the New York City Administrative Code: (1) Models Calico M-900 carbine, Calico M-100 carbine manufactured by American Industries, (2) Models Lightning 25-22, AP-74 manufactured by AMT, (3) Model AR-180 manufactured by Armalite, (4) Model .223 SAC manufactured by Austrian Automatic Arms, (5) Models M-1-SA, 1927-A1-SA manufactured by Auto Ordinance, (6) Model Light 50 82-AL manufactured by Barrett Firearms, (7) Models AR70, BM 59 manufactured by Beretta, (8) Model Assault Rifle manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, (9) Model SR-88 manufactured by Charter Firearms Industries, (10) Models AR-15 manufactured by Colt, (11) Models MAX-1, MAX-2, K1A1, K2, USAS-12 shotgun manufactured by Daewoo Industries, (12) Models C90, C100, C450 manufactured by DMAX Industries, (13) Model MK-IV carbine manufactured by ENCOM, (14) Models FN-FAL, FN-LAR, FN-FNC manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, (15) Model MAS 223 manufactured by FAMAS, (16) Models AT-9 carbine, AT-22 carbine manufactured by Feather Industries, (17) Models XC-450 AUTO OCARBINE, XC-220, XC-900 manufactured by Federal Engineering Corporation, (18) Models SPAS-12, LAW-12 pump auto shotguns manufactured by Franchi, (19) Model GC HIGH TECH carbine manufactured by Goncz Company, (20) Models HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, PSG-1, G3-SA manufactured by Heckler & Koch, (21) Models UZI-carbine, MINI-UZI carbine, GALIL-ARM, GALIL-AR, GALIL-SAR, GALIL-SNIPER manufactured by Israeli Military Industries, (22) Model PM-30 PARATROOPER manufactured by Iver Johnson, (23) Models AP-74, AP-84, AP-80, AP-85, SPECTRE AUTO carbine manufactured by Mitchell Arms, (24) Models of the Kalashnikov-type semiautomatic, including those manufactured by Norinco (China) and Hungarian Arms, (25) Models NDM-86 SNIPER RIFLE manufactured by Norinco, (26) Model M-14S manufactured by Polytech Industries, (27) Model MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger, (28) Models 57-AMT, PE-57, SG550SP, SG551SP manufactured by SIGArms, (29) Model L1A1A manufactured by Small Arms Factory, Australia, (30) Models BM-59, SAR-48, SAR-58, SAR-3, M-1A manufactured by Springfield Armory, (31) Model MK-6 manufactured by Sterling, (32) Model AUG-SA manufactured by Steyer Daimler-Pusch, (33) Models M-76-SA, M-78-SA manufactured by Valmet Corporation, and (34) Model NIGHTHAWK manufactured by Weaver Arms Corporation. Please look in the file library for more information on NYC gun laws.


On the plus side, the new FS2000 "might" be legal.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:38:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
TheSneak;

DFW knows whereof he speaks...he is extremely knowledgable and has experience to back up that knowledge.

I am currently putting together a HD shotgun for a friend and his wife who live in an apartment...

870P receiver with Wingmaster 18" Cylinder barrel
Wilson 1 shot extension & spring kit (I like these because they allow all 5 rounds from a box of Buck)
Short "standard" Speedfeed stock / fore end combo

They will probably add a SureFire 618 later. The gun will be loaded with Federal Tactical (reduced recoil, but using hardened, plated shot) #4 Buck...their choice.

Sound familar?

The non-pistol grip stocks really are faster to handle in many circumstances because the hand and wrist are not "locked in" to a position as with the PG stock. IMO the standard stock shoulders faster and generally handles better. OTOH, the PG model allows better "pointability" with one hand (works for one shot with the pump at least) and is a bit better for weapon retention if that becomes an issue. For HD, the difference is probably not a big deal so long as the gun fits you well...but remember that many of us cut our "shotgun teeth" using these guns for wing shooting ducks, dove and quail (for sure I did!) and FAST is the name of that game unless you are pass shooting ducks / geese. With a bead front sight, your eye is the "rear sight" of the shotgun, thus "fit and feel" must be correct for YOU...which is why shotgun stocks are such a major topic with shotgunners.

In your shoes, I would definitely want some sort of extra ammo capability...either on the gun (not my favorite place, but your circumstances are different from mine) or readily accessable when I grabbed the gun, and for certain, an oversize safety button.

If you choose to leave a round chambered, recognize that almost all sporting long guns only use the "safety" to block the trigger. They can...and may...fire if dropped or banged around really hard.

Good luck...I hope you never need your shotgun for anything except practice!



Hmm. I may have to take a trip to the fun store and wave some around. I did do some skeet when I was younger with a 20GA auto with a standard stock, did pretty well for a newb. Birdshot makes much more of a cloud of hits than buck does though. One of the reasons I like the idea of the eotech sight is you don't have to have your eye in exactly the right place like you do with a bead, since you will sort of automatically get it in place to be able to view the reticle.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:23:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
^^
The mini14 falls afoul of their definition of assault weapon:

From www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm


For City of New York: Title 38 of the Rules of the City of New York, § 17-01. Assault Weapons Designated. (a) Pursuant to Subparagraph 7 of Paragraph a of Subdivision 16 of § 10-301 of the New York City Administrative Code, the following makes and models of weapons are determined to be particularly suitable for military and not sporting purposes and are determined to be within the statutory definition of assault weapon as set forth in § 10?301(16) of the New York City Administrative Code: (1) Models Calico M-900 carbine, Calico M-100 carbine manufactured by American Industries, (2) Models Lightning 25-22, AP-74 manufactured by AMT, (3) Model AR-180 manufactured by Armalite, (4) Model .223 SAC manufactured by Austrian Automatic Arms, (5) Models M-1-SA, 1927-A1-SA manufactured by Auto Ordinance, (6) Model Light 50 82-AL manufactured by Barrett Firearms, (7) Models AR70, BM 59 manufactured by Beretta, (8) Model Assault Rifle manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, (9) Model SR-88 manufactured by Charter Firearms Industries, (10) Models AR-15 manufactured by Colt, (11) Models MAX-1, MAX-2, K1A1, K2, USAS-12 shotgun manufactured by Daewoo Industries, (12) Models C90, C100, C450 manufactured by DMAX Industries, (13) Model MK-IV carbine manufactured by ENCOM, (14) Models FN-FAL, FN-LAR, FN-FNC manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, (15) Model MAS 223 manufactured by FAMAS, (16) Models AT-9 carbine, AT-22 carbine manufactured by Feather Industries, (17) Models XC-450 AUTO OCARBINE, XC-220, XC-900 manufactured by Federal Engineering Corporation, (18) Models SPAS-12, LAW-12 pump auto shotguns manufactured by Franchi, (19) Model GC HIGH TECH carbine manufactured by Goncz Company, (20) Models HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, PSG-1, G3-SA manufactured by Heckler & Koch, (21) Models UZI-carbine, MINI-UZI carbine, GALIL-ARM, GALIL-AR, GALIL-SAR, GALIL-SNIPER manufactured by Israeli Military Industries, (22) Model PM-30 PARATROOPER manufactured by Iver Johnson, (23) Models AP-74, AP-84, AP-80, AP-85, SPECTRE AUTO carbine manufactured by Mitchell Arms, (24) Models of the Kalashnikov-type semiautomatic, including those manufactured by Norinco (China) and Hungarian Arms, (25) Models NDM-86 SNIPER RIFLE manufactured by Norinco, (26) Model M-14S manufactured by Polytech Industries, (27) Model MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger, (28) Models 57-AMT, PE-57, SG550SP, SG551SP manufactured by SIGArms, (29) Model L1A1A manufactured by Small Arms Factory, Australia, (30) Models BM-59, SAR-48, SAR-58, SAR-3, M-1A manufactured by Springfield Armory, (31) Model MK-6 manufactured by Sterling, (32) Model AUG-SA manufactured by Steyer Daimler-Pusch, (33) Models M-76-SA, M-78-SA manufactured by Valmet Corporation, and (34) Model NIGHTHAWK manufactured by Weaver Arms Corporation. Please look in the file library for more information on NYC gun laws.


On the plus side, the new FS2000 "might" be legal.



"MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger" is just the model that has the Ruger factory side folding stock.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:14:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By norwood:

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
^^
The mini14 falls afoul of their definition of assault weapon:

From www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm


For City of New York: Title 38 of the Rules of the City of New York, § 17-01. Assault Weapons Designated. (a) Pursuant to Subparagraph 7 of Paragraph a of Subdivision 16 of § 10-301 of the New York City Administrative Code, the following makes and models of weapons are determined to be particularly suitable for military and not sporting purposes and are determined to be within the statutory definition of assault weapon as set forth in § 10?301(16) of the New York City Administrative Code: (1) Models Calico M-900 carbine, Calico M-100 carbine manufactured by American Industries, (2) Models Lightning 25-22, AP-74 manufactured by AMT, (3) Model AR-180 manufactured by Armalite, (4) Model .223 SAC manufactured by Austrian Automatic Arms, (5) Models M-1-SA, 1927-A1-SA manufactured by Auto Ordinance, (6) Model Light 50 82-AL manufactured by Barrett Firearms, (7) Models AR70, BM 59 manufactured by Beretta, (8) Model Assault Rifle manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, (9) Model SR-88 manufactured by Charter Firearms Industries, (10) Models AR-15 manufactured by Colt, (11) Models MAX-1, MAX-2, K1A1, K2, USAS-12 shotgun manufactured by Daewoo Industries, (12) Models C90, C100, C450 manufactured by DMAX Industries, (13) Model MK-IV carbine manufactured by ENCOM, (14) Models FN-FAL, FN-LAR, FN-FNC manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, (15) Model MAS 223 manufactured by FAMAS, (16) Models AT-9 carbine, AT-22 carbine manufactured by Feather Industries, (17) Models XC-450 AUTO OCARBINE, XC-220, XC-900 manufactured by Federal Engineering Corporation, (18) Models SPAS-12, LAW-12 pump auto shotguns manufactured by Franchi, (19) Model GC HIGH TECH carbine manufactured by Goncz Company, (20) Models HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, PSG-1, G3-SA manufactured by Heckler & Koch, (21) Models UZI-carbine, MINI-UZI carbine, GALIL-ARM, GALIL-AR, GALIL-SAR, GALIL-SNIPER manufactured by Israeli Military Industries, (22) Model PM-30 PARATROOPER manufactured by Iver Johnson, (23) Models AP-74, AP-84, AP-80, AP-85, SPECTRE AUTO carbine manufactured by Mitchell Arms, (24) Models of the Kalashnikov-type semiautomatic, including those manufactured by Norinco (China) and Hungarian Arms, (25) Models NDM-86 SNIPER RIFLE manufactured by Norinco, (26) Model M-14S manufactured by Polytech Industries, (27) Model MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger, (28) Models 57-AMT, PE-57, SG550SP, SG551SP manufactured by SIGArms, (29) Model L1A1A manufactured by Small Arms Factory, Australia, (30) Models BM-59, SAR-48, SAR-58, SAR-3, M-1A manufactured by Springfield Armory, (31) Model MK-6 manufactured by Sterling, (32) Model AUG-SA manufactured by Steyer Daimler-Pusch, (33) Models M-76-SA, M-78-SA manufactured by Valmet Corporation, and (34) Model NIGHTHAWK manufactured by Weaver Arms Corporation. Please look in the file library for more information on NYC gun laws.


On the plus side, the new FS2000 "might" be legal.



"MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger" is just the model that has the Ruger factory side folding stock.



Hmmmm.... that is interesting. I wonder if they might get you by saying "oh no, with that slash we meant the regular mini-14 or the 5f version!" as they do ban the M1A which is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a mini-14 but shoots .308.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:13:56 PM EDT
I don't see any down side to an 870, Benelli or Winchester pump slug gun. They are handy and powerful in a PC package. ARs get all the cool points but up close and AR aint much compared to a 12 gauge launching 9-12 projectiles simultaneously. I would stay away from detachable mags because when they are dry you have to change them or have more loaded to change. When you have a plain jane tube you just keep topping it off as you go so you never run dry.
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