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Posted: 12/7/2003 3:02:59 PM EDT
Well lets say $1300 or under. I'm looking for a new tactical shotgun. I'd like to buy it basicly stock and put all the mods on it myself. Hopefully just bolt on stuff (no smithing skills). Shorter (legal) barrel the better. I like the idea of a pistol grip with a collapsable or folding stock. Magazine capacity is also a consideration. I know I want a surefire but not sure which one. Also a little unsure about which sight. I'll be using it mainly at night if that helps. I also would want shell saddle & sling with extra rounds. Just looking for a little advice and maybe a few good options. Thanks,
Buzz
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 5:34:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 5:38:16 PM EDT by pmoore4321]
Here is a link to a Scattergun Technologies clone I built a while back. It cost about half of your $1300 budget
www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9069
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 5:56:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 6:15:37 PM EDT by MAINEiac]
Buzzkill,

I'm no expert, but I've done a fair amount of research and shot a few "tactical" shotguns. I'll offer a few choices.
-Remington 870 Police magnum. You can get a brand spanky new one, or save a few bucks and get a nice clean used one. 18.5 or 20" barrel, bead, rifle or ghost ring sights, all available with tritium. Several different stocks available: pistol grip, folding, short length of pull, even an adapter that lets you put on an AR collapsible stock. A couple of trick Surefire setups: integrated forearm light or picatinny rail fore end. Everything else you mentioned is also available. You could probably pay the tax and get a 14" barrel and still come in under $1300.
-Mossberg 590. Similar to 870 (and less expensive) with respect to features and available options. Position of safety not compatible with pistol grip. Looked down on by some tactical snobs.
-Remington 11-87 Police magnum. Find a nice pre-ban if you want to go with the pistol grip (no folding stock currently available). Same barrel and sight options as the 870. Surefire integrated fore end. Some people have had functioning problems with lower powered ammo, although I have not. Some hard users, such as 3 gun competitors and military/LE, have complained about long-term reliability.
-Benelli M1 Super 90. The choice of many SWAT teams, definitely high "cool" factor. Go pre-ban and get the pistol grip and nine round capacity. No folding stock, but all the other goodies you mentioned are available, including the 14" barrel. Lower powered ammo may or may not function. Who cares, you want a 12 gauge, use full powered slugs and buckshot. Perceived recoil is a bit sharper than the gas operated 11-87 and M1014. You want low recoil, grab the AR.
-FN Police self-loading, Winchester SuperX2, Benelli M3 and M1014/M4, Fabarms, Franchi LAW-12, SPAS-12 and SPAS-15, StreetSweeper and USAS-12 all have their fans and detractors, but do not have the features available that you stated you are looking for.

Ah, gun shopping, aint it grand!
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:46:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 6:49:30 PM EDT by pmoore4321]
I agree. If you have $1300 dollars to play with you can have your choice of just about any combat shotgun. Certainly with that budget I would get an 870 Police Magnum over the Express model. I own both and the Police Magnum is a better gun.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:37:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 8:39:26 PM EDT by MaverickMkii]
Benelli M1 12 Gauge with pistol grip stock

If you are going to venture into Class 3, definetely get 14" barrel. Pre-ban won't matter then since you can get pistol grip and 2 shot magazine extension. (major no no on 4 shot extension with pistol grip. but you can wait until Sept 2004 )

You trade off reliability for the recoil. But then, I haven't shot Benelli M4 and don't know how it performs.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:44:59 AM EDT
Pre-ban Benelli M1 Tactical

Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:17:23 PM EDT
Looks like the Benelli might be the one. I like the large capacity advantage most of all. The 14" barrel would be sweet but I'm not sure if it's worth the tax for me.

Does surefire make a bolt on setup for the M1? I didn't see one on their website. Also what kind of sights would you suggest for typiclly nighttime use.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:40:00 PM EDT
Hey, what about the M3? I see a local dealer has one NIB.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:58:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 4:01:20 PM EDT by MAINEiac]

Does surefire make a bolt on setup for the M1?


www.surefire.com/maxexp/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&sesent=00&carfnbr=120






Also what kind of sights would you suggest for typiclly nighttime use.





www.calssportingarmory.com/Benelli2.htm



Hey, what about the M3?


No Surefire setup available. Some people like the optional pump feature.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 4:33:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:07:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
If money was no object...

www.sinistralrifleman.com/magpul-1.jpg



That's sweet! How much would something like that set me back and could I do most of it myself?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:28:11 PM EDT
If a SBS is legal in TN, then a Benelli M1 with 14" barrel would be great. I prefer plain or ribbed barrels with just a bead or fiber optic bead.

For night sites, the only thing you really need is a light. If your light covers the target and you can see the outline of your muzzle against your target, you are on it, pull the trigger. Faster than trying to line up precision sites.

Simply put, if you can hit a dove crossing you at a 90 degree angle and moving at 60mph using only a rib and a bead, why do you need sites to hit a 200lb person standig at the end of your hallway?

Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:53:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:
If a SBS is legal in TN, then a Benelli M1 with 14" barrel would be great. I prefer plain or ribbed barrels with just a bead or fiber optic bead.

For night sites, the only thing you really need is a light. If your light covers the target and you can see the outline of your muzzle against your target, you are on it, pull the trigger. Faster than trying to line up precision sites.

Simply put, if you can hit a dove crossing you at a 90 degree angle and moving at 60mph using only a rib and a bead, why do you need sites to hit a 200lb person standig at the end of your hallway?



Very good point but I may as well have a backup plan when my batteries are dead or I can't find the stinkin light switch. Might also be an instance when I wouldn't want to be so visible.
This is not a home defense weapon. I own a company in a bad neighborhood and am 1st on alarm call list. I'ts a big place and we get broken into quite a bit, mainly at night. The local LEO (because of the neighborhood) rarely gets there before me so I generally have to check things out on my own.
Anyway sorry to ramble on but I really do need all the help I can get.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 8:18:07 PM EDT
You should have mentioned that info in your first post.

If you are going to proactively play cop and run to your business, you better get serious training on how to use your weapons (stress weaponS) and the legal aspects of being a business owner and running to your property, engaging the bad guy and blowing him away in an offensive maneuver, rather than wait for the cops to do it. They will spin that as you being blood thirsty. Especially if no actual person is at risk.

As a busines owner, I would never do that.

Without a light, all night sites will do is give you a couple nice green dots to look at up against a black horizon with no clear target to see in the dark. Night sites do not help you se the target, just the sights. And the bad guy may be in the shadows looking right back at you, as you move under a street light or flood light.

You need to have a plan on how you will use cover and clear the area, turning lights on as you go. Get training with whatever guns you buy. You need to drop the shotgun and go to your handgun and light if the shotgun light fails. I would also take my dog with me.

Before you go on the offensive you need a handgun, shotgun, lights for both and training on how to use them.

For example, spend:
$300 on a Remington express
$200 on surefire light for it.
$400 on a used Glock
$100 for a light for it

$300 to $500 on training

Total $1500 and you still need a holster and 5 mags. Buy all of it from the same guy and get a deal or shop like hell for better prices.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:47:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2003 3:54:00 AM EDT by mike103]
Buz, Z is giving you some very sound advise. I would think long and hard about responding to a ringing alarm at my shop with a 12 gauge shotgun in tow BEFORE the cops get there. At the very least I would go to the local PD meet the officers and discuss your plan. If you could meet the officers that have your sector that might help. As you know you can't just shoot someone breaking into your building. MIKE.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 8:36:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 9:54:10 AM EDT
I hope I didn't come across like I was wanting to play cop because that's the last thing I meant to do. The alarm system we use is a silent one and the company prides themselves on catching 99% of those who break in. The downside is that they dispatch police every time the wind blows too hard and they hear a noise. 90% of the time it's nothing but you never know. Like I said it's a rough neighborhhod and many time the cops don't show up for 30 minutes or so after I get there because their so busy. Usually you can see where a big piece of paper blew over a beam or a shop door didn't get locked and blew open. most of the time I walk through and find the problem, call the alarm company and have them cancel the dispatch. This saves us all alot of time and money. The building itself is protected with razor wire fencing and multiple beams you have to break before ever getting near the building. I realize the danger of going in alone but after so many false alarms you tend to get used to which ones are sort of routine and the ones where you need to hang back and wait for the calvary. Over the years I've gotten to know the local LEO very well and my company donates materials to them on a regular basis. I've never once had one of them question me when I've come out of the car with any number of the guns I own including shotguns. I've got my carry permit and I've done a tactical pistol class that included some close quarter defense techniques and some low light shooting. I still think I'd feel more comfortable with a shotgun as my primary, down at the office with a sidearm as a backup. Oh and I do take the dog most of the time when they call me and I'm at home. Not that he'd do much but he does walk out in front of me and if he saw someone he'd make plenty of noise.
Anyway sorry for going on and on but I wanted some of you to know that I'm not some cop wanna be because nothing could be farther from the truth. However, I've been taught that if the danger exists it's better to use lethal force and call a lawyer than to hope Mr. Bad Guy will drop the gun wait for the cops to arrive.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:16:52 AM EDT
Listen to Zoub, he knows what he's talking about.
Imagine this from an officers perspective. He gets called out to the alarm, as well as the private security company, and you head there too.
Cop pulls up and see's a man with a tac shotgun in or around the business. You mention that the police know you pretty well.
What if it's Newguybob's first day? Face plant to the cement, while the real problem may be going on inside.
Prized 1300 dollar shotgun kicked across the street.
Or the worst case, you go in, find some SOB and you in turn have to clobber them. As Zoub stated, you are taking an offensive action. You had the ability to not engage the situation by letting the private security or the police handle the situation.
Now you are the one liable for everything that went down. You stated it is in a bad neighborhood, so the chances of it being a real threat are good. Use of a firearm generally isn't allowed to protect property.
A leftie DA would have a field day with you, a maniac enraged with a assault shotgun slaughtered some poor inocent burglar who was trying to get somthing to pawn to feed his 9 bastard children.
You'll need 50,000 bucks for the court case, and you'll still likely be thrown to the wolves.
Just some thoughts, don't want to see you in the paper.
-Steve
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:26:59 AM EDT
I would go with the benelli M1014/M4. The reason being that it pretty much cycles anything except for bean bags. I am using the federal tactical 00buck with the reduced recoil and it cycles fine. I have heard of the benelli M1 having problems cycling low recoil loads. Another advantage is that it is gas operated and not inertia operated, this also helps with the felt recoil as well as target acquisition.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 6:20:13 AM EDT
Thanks, I went with the Benelli M1 preban. Looking forward to getting out with it. I appriciate all the help guys.
Buzz
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